If Bioware releases a patch for single player, I was thinking about making the classes more balanced.
The adept should have the highest biotic damage output.
The engineer should have the highest tech damage output.
The soldier should have the highest weapon/melee damage output.
The infiltrator, vanguard and sentinel should not be out performing their specialist counterparts.
Anyway that's just my two cents.
Do you have any ideas to balance the classes?
Do you agree with the opening post? (not agreeing with OP is an option)
Balance the classes. ME 3
Débuté par
Abraham_uk
, févr. 24 2013 09:20
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#3
Posté 24 février 2013 - 09:47
RedCaesar97
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Basically, most of the single player class imbalance can be traced to the following game mechanics:
- The combo system.
- The weapon weight system.
Other issues include:
- Tactical Cloak damage, Tactical Cloak recharge speed mechanics
- The Charge-NovaGuard immunity frames
- class passive imbalance
I need time to properly formulate my answer.
- The combo system.
- The weapon weight system.
Other issues include:
- Tactical Cloak damage, Tactical Cloak recharge speed mechanics
- The Charge-NovaGuard immunity frames
- class passive imbalance
I need time to properly formulate my answer.
#4
Posté 24 février 2013 - 10:06
Drayce333
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The adept is about combos and speed, and does not rely on power damage like the engineer. Engineer is the king of power damage. Vanguard is king of Close Combat and melee, not the soldier. Sentinel is king of defense and has flexibility but does not outperform engi or adept in their own playing field. All of those classes are fine and well balanced.
Infiltrator however is stupidly OP because of tactical cloak, It needs MP stats and a bigger damage nerf but better sniper damage increase to be near balanced. Soldier needs MUCH higher weight capacity and MP stats on Adrenaline rushes shield boost otherwise it is fine.
Infiltrator however is stupidly OP because of tactical cloak, It needs MP stats and a bigger damage nerf but better sniper damage increase to be near balanced. Soldier needs MUCH higher weight capacity and MP stats on Adrenaline rushes shield boost otherwise it is fine.
#5
Posté 24 février 2013 - 11:29
Abraham_uk
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Drayce333 wrote...
The adept is about combos and speed, and does not rely on power damage like the engineer. Engineer is the king of power damage. Vanguard is king of Close Combat and melee, not the soldier. Sentinel is king of defense and has flexibility but does not outperform engi or adept in their own playing field. All of those classes are fine and well balanced.
Infiltrator however is stupidly OP because of tactical cloak, It needs MP stats and a bigger damage nerf but better sniper damage increase to be near balanced. Soldier needs MUCH higher weight capacity and MP stats on Adrenaline rushes shield boost otherwise it is fine.
All good points.
Infiltrator's overpoweredness comes from the stat bonuses given by tactical cloak.
RedCaesar97 wrote...
Basically, most of the single player class imbalance can be traced to the following game mechanics:
- The combo system.
- The weapon weight system.
Other issues include:
- Tactical Cloak damage, Tactical Cloak recharge speed mechanics
- The Charge-NovaGuard immunity frames
- class passive imbalance
I need time to properly formulate my answer.
I looke forward to it.
#6
Posté 25 février 2013 - 03:07
capn233
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It's hard to say.
Would need some balance testing and we would have to agree on paradigms for the powers.
For instance, you submit the idea that the Adept should be the best at biotic power damage. In ME1, Adept was king of biotics, but they were all really CC powers with a single debuff in there. And while that wasn't direct damage, it still was powerful when used correctly in its role. In ME3 it would be hard to apply that paradigm directly, since we don't have CC that works on protected targets (outside of Stasis), but on the other hand there are less protecteds than in ME2.
I would say in general I agree with points above though, and but would make it more nebulous such that Adept is the best at biotics... so that probably means cooldown bonus. I also agree that the combo system in ME3, while at glance a good idea, ends up diluting gameplay insofar as it makes many of the classes end up playing fairly similarly. I would want to restructure combos into unstable biotics (sort of like warp bombs in ME2), and physics combos (like Pull into Throw, ME1 / ME2 style)... then I might restructure tech to be more rigid. Honestly I don't like elementals all that much and might limit them to Tech Bursts.
Engineer depends on power damage but also CC. The drone would need some tweaks.
I am not sure if Soldier should be the king of weapon DPS or not. He was in ME2, but he wasn't in ME1... in that game he was the best tank, and while master at arms, lost out to Infiltrator in pure weapon DPS IIRC. He mainly just would need reeingineering of Combat Mastery IMO, with added accuracy and stability. I might be inclined to throw some extra Damage Reduction in either passive or Adrenaline Rush as well. His ammo powers might need some tweaking.
Fixing combos would help reign in Vanguard. Nova could survive if tweaked.
Infiltrator just needs Marksman broken under TC, needs some damage bonus tweaks, and needs the minimum cooldown altered.
Would need some balance testing and we would have to agree on paradigms for the powers.
For instance, you submit the idea that the Adept should be the best at biotic power damage. In ME1, Adept was king of biotics, but they were all really CC powers with a single debuff in there. And while that wasn't direct damage, it still was powerful when used correctly in its role. In ME3 it would be hard to apply that paradigm directly, since we don't have CC that works on protected targets (outside of Stasis), but on the other hand there are less protecteds than in ME2.
I would say in general I agree with points above though, and but would make it more nebulous such that Adept is the best at biotics... so that probably means cooldown bonus. I also agree that the combo system in ME3, while at glance a good idea, ends up diluting gameplay insofar as it makes many of the classes end up playing fairly similarly. I would want to restructure combos into unstable biotics (sort of like warp bombs in ME2), and physics combos (like Pull into Throw, ME1 / ME2 style)... then I might restructure tech to be more rigid. Honestly I don't like elementals all that much and might limit them to Tech Bursts.
Engineer depends on power damage but also CC. The drone would need some tweaks.
I am not sure if Soldier should be the king of weapon DPS or not. He was in ME2, but he wasn't in ME1... in that game he was the best tank, and while master at arms, lost out to Infiltrator in pure weapon DPS IIRC. He mainly just would need reeingineering of Combat Mastery IMO, with added accuracy and stability. I might be inclined to throw some extra Damage Reduction in either passive or Adrenaline Rush as well. His ammo powers might need some tweaking.
Fixing combos would help reign in Vanguard. Nova could survive if tweaked.
Infiltrator just needs Marksman broken under TC, needs some damage bonus tweaks, and needs the minimum cooldown altered.
#7
Posté 25 février 2013 - 02:39
brad2240
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For biotics, I'd really like to see combos returned to the ME2 days: physics-based combos like Pull + Throw, and only Warp detonating explosions.
Failing that, give Adepts a bonus to biotic detonations in their passive.
I'd also like to see Adepts with a little more variety in their powers, maybe with Stasis replacing Shockwave or something like that. Something where there isn't so much overlap.
And please, please make Singularity as awesome as it is in MP.
For Vanguards, Nova should be a cooldown power like all the others, and not have immunity frames.
For Infiltrators... well, Tac Cloak is completely broken. There's never going to be real class balance as long as it exists in its current state. Get rid of the power damage bonus, there's no reason this guy should be a better caster than a caster class. Also get rid of the minimum cooldown so weight actually effects this class like it should.
For Soldiers, add stabilty and accuracy bonuses into their passive, so weapons are actually better and easier to use in his hands. Maybe a bigger damage buff as well but that's less neccessary IMO.
Failing that, give Adepts a bonus to biotic detonations in their passive.
I'd also like to see Adepts with a little more variety in their powers, maybe with Stasis replacing Shockwave or something like that. Something where there isn't so much overlap.
And please, please make Singularity as awesome as it is in MP.
For Vanguards, Nova should be a cooldown power like all the others, and not have immunity frames.
For Infiltrators... well, Tac Cloak is completely broken. There's never going to be real class balance as long as it exists in its current state. Get rid of the power damage bonus, there's no reason this guy should be a better caster than a caster class. Also get rid of the minimum cooldown so weight actually effects this class like it should.
For Soldiers, add stabilty and accuracy bonuses into their passive, so weapons are actually better and easier to use in his hands. Maybe a bigger damage buff as well but that's less neccessary IMO.
#8
Posté 25 février 2013 - 03:45
Abraham_uk
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It's a tricky balance.
Regarding combos.
I wouldn't remove the elemental combos.
I'd make them harder to perform. For all three, you have to perform a killing blow to detonate the combo. This way the combos take time and practice.
All four combos would have a small amount of nerfing in terms of damage. Nothing major.
Cooldowns for any power to be capped at 3 seconds. No power should have a quicker cooldown than 3 seconds.
Incendiary concussive shot should not detonate itself.
Marksman shouldn't work under tactical cloak.
Regarding combos.
I wouldn't remove the elemental combos.
I'd make them harder to perform. For all three, you have to perform a killing blow to detonate the combo. This way the combos take time and practice.
All four combos would have a small amount of nerfing in terms of damage. Nothing major.
Cooldowns for any power to be capped at 3 seconds. No power should have a quicker cooldown than 3 seconds.
Incendiary concussive shot should not detonate itself.
Marksman shouldn't work under tactical cloak.
Modifié par Abraham_uk, 25 février 2013 - 03:46 .
#9
Posté 25 février 2013 - 05:23
RedCaesar97
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I am going to have to split my comments into several posts, just to keep my some of my rambling observations short and roughly coherent.
DISCLAIMER 1: First, I would like to stress that it is very easy to criticize a game, game mechanics, and game design in general. It is much harder to actually create said game, game mechanics and game design. So I will start poking holes in what I feel are inbalances in the game, classes, and game design of Mass Effect 3, I will not disparage the designers, writers, and testers of Mass Effect 3. The people who worked on Mass Effect 3 worked some long and hard days to make the best game they could and obviously tried their best to make the game fair, balanced, and fun. For the most part, I think they succeeded. Thank you to everyone at BioWare who worked so hard at making the Mass Effect 1-3 my favorite series of video games.
DISCLAIMER 2: Gameplay-wise (combat, combat mechanics), I consider Mass Effect 2 the best game in the series. I will try my best to not compare ME3 to ME2, and will do my best to consider ME3 game mechanics on their own merits. Where possible, I will try to come up with balance suggestions for single-player based on how the developers try to balance multiplayer: by tweaking numbers. Note that this will not be the case for all my suggestions, as I think some mechanics and powers need a re-design (see my ME2 comment).
DISCLAIMER 1: First, I would like to stress that it is very easy to criticize a game, game mechanics, and game design in general. It is much harder to actually create said game, game mechanics and game design. So I will start poking holes in what I feel are inbalances in the game, classes, and game design of Mass Effect 3, I will not disparage the designers, writers, and testers of Mass Effect 3. The people who worked on Mass Effect 3 worked some long and hard days to make the best game they could and obviously tried their best to make the game fair, balanced, and fun. For the most part, I think they succeeded. Thank you to everyone at BioWare who worked so hard at making the Mass Effect 1-3 my favorite series of video games.
DISCLAIMER 2: Gameplay-wise (combat, combat mechanics), I consider Mass Effect 2 the best game in the series. I will try my best to not compare ME3 to ME2, and will do my best to consider ME3 game mechanics on their own merits. Where possible, I will try to come up with balance suggestions for single-player based on how the developers try to balance multiplayer: by tweaking numbers. Note that this will not be the case for all my suggestions, as I think some mechanics and powers need a re-design (see my ME2 comment).
#10
Posté 25 février 2013 - 05:45
Abraham_uk
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RedCaesar97 wrote...
I am going to have to split my comments into several posts, just to keep my some of my rambling observations short and roughly coherent.
DISCLAIMER 1: First, I would like to stress that it is very easy to criticize a game, game mechanics, and game design in general. It is much harder to actually create said game, game mechanics and game design. So I will start poking holes in what I feel are inbalances in the game, classes, and game design of Mass Effect 3, I will not disparage the designers, writers, and testers of Mass Effect 3. The people who worked on Mass Effect 3 worked some long and hard days to make the best game they could and obviously tried their best to make the game fair, balanced, and fun. For the most part, I think they succeeded. Thank you to everyone at BioWare who worked so hard at making the Mass Effect 1-3 my favorite series of video games.
DISCLAIMER 2: Gameplay-wise (combat, combat mechanics), I consider Mass Effect 2 the best game in the series. I will try my best to not compare ME3 to ME2, and will do my best to consider ME3 game mechanics on their own merits. Where possible, I will try to come up with balance suggestions for single-player based on how the developers try to balance multiplayer: by tweaking numbers. Note that this will not be the case for all my suggestions, as I think some mechanics and powers need a re-design (see my ME2 comment).
The points raised in both disclaimers are often overlooked.
Kudos for the disclaimers.
#11
Posté 25 février 2013 - 05:52
RedCaesar97
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Okay, let me get the obvious stuff out of the way:
1) Tactical Cloak. It needs to be re-designed, or at the very least, have its stats changed. As it currently stands, Tactical Cloak a general damage boost that applies to both weapons and powers. This allows Infiltrators to deal more weapon damage than Soldiers, and more power damage than any other class.
The damage boost, especially at rank 4, either needs to be removed completely, or decreased substantially. Another change would be to match what multiplayer did for a balance change: reduce the base duration, and substantially increase the duration for rank 4 Duration. As it stands, with rank 4 Damage and rank 6 Free Power, the Infiltrator can cast Sabotage, then Incinerate, then shoot for some crazy damage.
Free Power is mostly fine; perhaps add a cooldown penalty if used? Maybe -25% to -50% cooldown?
2) Sentinel should not be able to use another shield power if Tech Armor is already activated, and vice versa.
3) Soldier's rank 6 Fire Power evolution applies only to "castable" powers (I forget how the description is actually worded). This means you cannot use Marksman--like Tactical Cloak's Free Power evolution--but neither can you activate/deactivate shield powers such as Fortification or Defense Matrix.
I think this needs to be changed so that it applies to all powers. Admittedly this would make an A-Rush+Marksman combo overpowered. Now mind you I never liked the idea of Marksman as a power anyway. but if Tactical Cloak can do it, how come Adrenaline Rush cannot?
4) Some squadmates are overpowered.
I may need more time and another post to explain this further, but basically not all squadmates are created equal. Liara and Javik especially can have ridiculously low cooldowns for most of their powers. A biotic Shepard with Liara is stupid good. A biotic Shepard with both Liara and Javik is insanely good.
Liara can set off her own biotic combos with Singularity > Warp, and even with the recent change to Stasis' cooldown, she can still detonate her own Stasis > Warp combo if you are patient enough.
Javik can use Pull > Slam/Lift grenades. And even with Dark Channel's long cooldown, it can last long enough that you could Dark Channel > Slam/Lift Grenade enemies if you are patient enough.
Ashley can detonate her own tech bursts with Disruptor Ammo > Concussive Shot, and fire explosions with Incendiary Grenades > Concussive Shot. The latter is limited only by number of Inferno grenades. Additionally, not everyone may have Ashley in their playthrough, and she is unavailable for a good portion of the game.
James can set off his own fire explosions with Incendiary Ammo > Frag Grenades/Carnage. Carnage has a very long cooldown and his grenades are limited in number.
This leaves Kaiden, EDI, Garrus, and Tali who cannot set up and detonate their own combos. I think this is a good thing, as it makes them good squadmates and not Shepard replacements.
For Javik and Liara, I think their cooldowns need to be increased so they are more complimentary to Shepard, and not just a second short cooldown pool.
For Ashley and James, not much you can do there, although for Ashley you could increase her Concussive Shot cooldown. However, I think the combo system needs to be changed, something I will address in a future post.
1) Tactical Cloak. It needs to be re-designed, or at the very least, have its stats changed. As it currently stands, Tactical Cloak a general damage boost that applies to both weapons and powers. This allows Infiltrators to deal more weapon damage than Soldiers, and more power damage than any other class.
The damage boost, especially at rank 4, either needs to be removed completely, or decreased substantially. Another change would be to match what multiplayer did for a balance change: reduce the base duration, and substantially increase the duration for rank 4 Duration. As it stands, with rank 4 Damage and rank 6 Free Power, the Infiltrator can cast Sabotage, then Incinerate, then shoot for some crazy damage.
Free Power is mostly fine; perhaps add a cooldown penalty if used? Maybe -25% to -50% cooldown?
2) Sentinel should not be able to use another shield power if Tech Armor is already activated, and vice versa.
3) Soldier's rank 6 Fire Power evolution applies only to "castable" powers (I forget how the description is actually worded). This means you cannot use Marksman--like Tactical Cloak's Free Power evolution--but neither can you activate/deactivate shield powers such as Fortification or Defense Matrix.
I think this needs to be changed so that it applies to all powers. Admittedly this would make an A-Rush+Marksman combo overpowered. Now mind you I never liked the idea of Marksman as a power anyway. but if Tactical Cloak can do it, how come Adrenaline Rush cannot?
4) Some squadmates are overpowered.
I may need more time and another post to explain this further, but basically not all squadmates are created equal. Liara and Javik especially can have ridiculously low cooldowns for most of their powers. A biotic Shepard with Liara is stupid good. A biotic Shepard with both Liara and Javik is insanely good.
Liara can set off her own biotic combos with Singularity > Warp, and even with the recent change to Stasis' cooldown, she can still detonate her own Stasis > Warp combo if you are patient enough.
Javik can use Pull > Slam/Lift grenades. And even with Dark Channel's long cooldown, it can last long enough that you could Dark Channel > Slam/Lift Grenade enemies if you are patient enough.
Ashley can detonate her own tech bursts with Disruptor Ammo > Concussive Shot, and fire explosions with Incendiary Grenades > Concussive Shot. The latter is limited only by number of Inferno grenades. Additionally, not everyone may have Ashley in their playthrough, and she is unavailable for a good portion of the game.
James can set off his own fire explosions with Incendiary Ammo > Frag Grenades/Carnage. Carnage has a very long cooldown and his grenades are limited in number.
This leaves Kaiden, EDI, Garrus, and Tali who cannot set up and detonate their own combos. I think this is a good thing, as it makes them good squadmates and not Shepard replacements.
For Javik and Liara, I think their cooldowns need to be increased so they are more complimentary to Shepard, and not just a second short cooldown pool.
For Ashley and James, not much you can do there, although for Ashley you could increase her Concussive Shot cooldown. However, I think the combo system needs to be changed, something I will address in a future post.
#12
Posté 25 février 2013 - 06:32
CoffeeHolic93
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RedCaesar97 wrote...
Okay, let me get the obvious stuff out of the way:
1) Tactical Cloak. It needs to be re-designed, or at the very least, have its stats changed. As it currently stands, Tactical Cloak a general damage boost that applies to both weapons and powers. This allows Infiltrators to deal more weapon damage than Soldiers, and more power damage than any other class.
The damage boost, especially at rank 4, either needs to be removed completely, or decreased substantially. Another change would be to match what multiplayer did for a balance change: reduce the base duration, and substantially increase the duration for rank 4 Duration. As it stands, with rank 4 Damage and rank 6 Free Power, the Infiltrator can cast Sabotage, then Incinerate, then shoot for some crazy damage.
Agreed. Tactical cloak should not apply to melee, guns and powers. Instead, I would like to see something like shield-gate negation or a strict sniper rifle boost. As it stands single-shot rifles are stupidly bad in the single player, and disruptor ammo doesn't pick up the slack. Picking energy drain as a bonus power is a poor solution to the problem.
Agreed, move along.Free Power is mostly fine; perhaps add a cooldown penalty if used? Maybe -25% to -50% cooldown?
Two defensive powers at the same time is the only way to really be tanky as a sentinel in this game, which since Mass Effect 2 has been the draw in addition to having a little bit of everything to deal with everything. Change or increase the DR and make the class more versatile. Its power comes from the change to bluesplosions, and the fact that throw has the "reset on detonation" evolution which is stupid.2) Sentinel should not be able to use another shield power if Tech Armor is already activated, and vice versa.
I like the concept of Marksman, but it should be an evolution path in Adrenaline rush. More base weapon damage for accurate guns, or rate of fire and accuracy for shotguns and rapid-fire assault rifles. Alternatively, mix the damage and rate of fire but try to balance them so that they can co-exist together. Accurary is problematic to balance, and if you ask why take a look at how people look at the GI on the multiplayer forum.3) Soldier's rank 6 Fire Power evolution applies only to "castable" powers (I forget how the description is actually worded). This means you cannot use Marksman--like Tactical Cloak's Free Power evolution--but neither can you activate/deactivate shield powers such as Fortification or Defense Matrix.
I think this needs to be changed so that it applies to all powers. Admittedly this would make an A-Rush+Marksman combo overpowered. Now mind you I never liked the idea of Marksman as a power anyway. but if Tactical Cloak can do it, how come Adrenaline Rush cannot?
4) Some squadmates are overpowered.
I may need more time and another post to explain this further, but basically not all squadmates are created equal. Liara and Javik especially can have ridiculously low cooldowns for most of their powers. A biotic Shepard with Liara is stupid good. A biotic Shepard with both Liara and Javik is insanely good.
Liara can set off her own biotic combos with Singularity > Warp, and even with the recent change to Stasis' cooldown, she can still detonate her own Stasis > Warp combo if you are patient enough.
Javik can use Pull > Slam/Lift grenades. And even with Dark Channel's long cooldown, it can last long enough that you could Dark Channel > Slam/Lift Grenade enemies if you are patient enough.
Ashley can detonate her own tech bursts with Disruptor Ammo > Concussive Shot, and fire explosions with Incendiary Grenades > Concussive Shot. The latter is limited only by number of Inferno grenades. Additionally, not everyone may have Ashley in their playthrough, and she is unavailable for a good portion of the game.
James can set off his own fire explosions with Incendiary Ammo > Frag Grenades/Carnage. Carnage has a very long cooldown and his grenades are limited in number.
This leaves Kaiden, EDI, Garrus, and Tali who cannot set up and detonate their own combos. I think this is a good thing, as it makes them good squadmates and not Shepard replacements.
For Javik and Liara, I think their cooldowns need to be increased so they are more complimentary to Shepard, and not just a second short cooldown pool.
For Ashley and James, not much you can do there, although for Ashley you could increase her Concussive Shot cooldown. However, I think the combo system needs to be changed, something I will address in a future post.
Liara was stupidly good in ME1 aswell,but I agree that there should be some balance. Biotic squadmates should definitely have synergy with a biotic shepard, but not to such a degree. I would actually go as far as to say that the combo system could be removed or tweaked and increase the base damage of powers.
All just opinions and observations, so take it with a grain of salt as I am not a game developer.
#13
Posté 25 février 2013 - 08:46
Abraham_uk
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Before I make these points I will make it clear. I do love ME 3's combat. I do realize the team put a lot of hard work into the game. This issue is something that took me 6 play-troughs to begin to notice.
I'm not the kind of gamer who exploits any overpowered tricks (charge/nova, incendiary concussive shot bug and tactical cloak marksman trick). But I do like to equip my squadmates with the best equipment.
I know people often complain about squad mates being useless. But I swear, when I gave DLC Assault Rifles to my squad mates such as Prothean Particle Rifle, Chrakram Launcher, they were literally clearing up mooks for me.
I have never come across a situation where I could stand back and do nothing whilst the squadmates do all the work. Even when I was trying to kill as many enemies as possible, my squadmates managed to kill more. So that raises the important issue "what is so special about Commander Shepard"?
Garrus, Ashley/Kaidan, James and Javik can all clear up mooks as quickly if not quicker than Shepard with the right assault rifle. Just get Garrus, (Virmire Survivor or James) and Javik into their own team and let them do the missions for Shepard.
This is insanity by the way.
Have any of you encountered this?
I'm not the kind of gamer who exploits any overpowered tricks (charge/nova, incendiary concussive shot bug and tactical cloak marksman trick). But I do like to equip my squadmates with the best equipment.
I know people often complain about squad mates being useless. But I swear, when I gave DLC Assault Rifles to my squad mates such as Prothean Particle Rifle, Chrakram Launcher, they were literally clearing up mooks for me.
I have never come across a situation where I could stand back and do nothing whilst the squadmates do all the work. Even when I was trying to kill as many enemies as possible, my squadmates managed to kill more. So that raises the important issue "what is so special about Commander Shepard"?
Garrus, Ashley/Kaidan, James and Javik can all clear up mooks as quickly if not quicker than Shepard with the right assault rifle. Just get Garrus, (Virmire Survivor or James) and Javik into their own team and let them do the missions for Shepard.
This is insanity by the way.
Have any of you encountered this?
Modifié par Abraham_uk, 25 février 2013 - 08:49 .
#14
Posté 25 février 2013 - 09:43
CoffeeHolic93
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Abraham_uk wrote...
snip
Not really. Mind you, I've only really played the Soldier and the Infiltrator, but my playstyle can be summed up with the word "CHARGE!" that I am usually right in the fray where I have to kill the enemies as fast as possible or I will die myself.
#15
Posté 25 février 2013 - 10:55
Abraham_uk
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Mi-Chan wrote...
Abraham_uk wrote...
snip
Not really. Mind you, I've only really played the Soldier and the Infiltrator, but my playstyle can be summed up with the word "CHARGE!" that I am usually right in the fray where I have to kill the enemies as fast as possible or I will die myself.
I only have that issue when I equip my team mates with DLC assault rifles.
Modifié par Abraham_uk, 25 février 2013 - 10:56 .
#16
Posté 26 février 2013 - 02:05
RedCaesar97
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I want to address the combo system.
On paper and in practice it works really well. The problem is that it is more balanced in multiplayer where you have limited options and can work together as a team. In single player it is stupid powerful and turns the game into "beat everything to death with the combo hammer". It also makes some combos better than others.
My biggest gripes:
1) All biotic combos are biotic explosions. All biotics can be used to make biotic explosions.
2) Biotics can detonate tech combos.
3) Combat powers can detonate tech combos.
4) You can combo enemies protected by shields, barriers, and armor. (Note that if an enemy has armor, it has no health)
So how does this affect balance? I will discuss biotic combos first.
Consider: If all biotics can be used to make biotic explosions, what separates the Adept, Sentinel, and Vanguard? Not much:
- The Sentinel has Warp+Throw, same as the Adept.
- The Vanguard has Pull+Shockwave, same as the Adept.
Now, the one thing that the Adept has going for it compared to the Sentinel and Vanguard, is that it has Pull/Singularity, Warp, and Throw/Shockwave, making it the best class for creating biotic explosions. But does that make it better than Sentinel or Vanguard at biotic explosions? On its own, definitely. But start including squadmates (Liara, Javik), and the Adept cannot do anything that the Vanguard or Sentinel cannot already do but better or more efficiently.
I know I wrote previously that I did not want to compare ME2 to ME3, but I feel I need to discuss how ME2 handled biotics. In ME2, biotics were mainly used for crowd-control:
- Pull lifted unprotected enemies into the air. Pulled enemies took more damage, took more force.
- Singularity lifted unprotected enemies, and held most protected enemies in place, slowly draining their defenses.
- Throw hit enemies with force, knocking unprotected enemies down. Throw increased in force when hitting enemies lifted by Pull or Singularity.
- Warp dealt good damage and extra damage to armor and barriers. It stopped Vorcha and Krogan from regenerating health. It detonated enemies lifted by Pull, Singularity, and Slam, dealing massive damage to the enemy and good damage to enemies in the explosion radius.
- Stasis held enemies immobile. Enemies could not be harmed while in Stasis.
- Shockwave was a cascading biotic force that would throw enemies away
- Reave would (inexplicably) replensh Shepard's health over time if it hit organic health. It dealt extra damage to armor and barriers.
- Slam lifted an enemy into the air and then slammed the enemy into the ground.
Each biotic power in ME2 had a role and played it fairly well. Biotic combos were either explosions (Lift/Singularity/Slam > Warp) or added increased force (Singularity/Pull > Throw/Shockwave/Charge). With the exception of Charge, the Adept could perform all biotic combos. The Sentinel needed squadmates to set up explosions for physics combos. The Vanguard could use Pull > Shockwave/Charge, but needed squadmates for explosions.
I feel that if biotic combos were separated into explosions and physics-based, then it would restore some balance to biotic combos and certainly make the Adept more unique. My suggestions:
A) Only Warp can detonate biotic explosions.
Only Pull, SIngularity, and Slam can set up biotic combos.
C) Throw and Shockwave are physics-based and will deal increased force to enemies affected by Pull, Singularity, and Slam.
D) Biotic combos can only be detonated against health (more on this in another post).
E) As an exception to (A), perhaps allow for an evolution to Throw that would allow Throw to detonate an enemy affected by Warp.
This would allow the Adept to perform all biotic combos, while the Sentinel and Vanguard still need squadmate help and help improve the appeal of the Adept.
Some of my other thoughts on biotics (does not have much to do with balance, so feel free to ignore):
(a) Singularity and Pull need to be more distinct so you have a reason to want to use both powers. Possibilities include:
- Singularity being instant-cast.
- Singularity's duration being the same as the "Lift duration". I never understood why those two are different. It is annoying.
- Singularity having the ability to drain shields and barriers.
- Singularity can hold enemies in place more reliably (they cannot hop or roll out of it).
- If the above changes were made, then remove Singularity's current ability to remain after a biotic explosion. It can still stay active if you Throw or Slam an enemy out of it.
- Singularity needs to be wider.
The above would bring ME3 Singularity more in line with its ME2 counterpart. It would also mean you would cast it on an enemy or in an area, then use Pull while Singularity is still active.
( Remove Reave. I never liked the idea, either in ME1 or ME2. "Reave" could be an evolution of Warp, although what it would actually do I have no idea. The instant-cast ability and Radius evolution or Reave could be moved to Warp.
© Change Stasis so that by default you cannot damage enemies in Stasis. Allow it trap armored enemies, or at least the smaller armored enemies. Possible evolutions:
Rank 1: Stasis (base duration, recharge speed. enemy shields and barriers take damage over time)
Rank 2: Recharge Speed
Rank 3: Duration
Rank4a: Duration
Rank4b: Radius (allow you to trap more targets or bigger targets)
Rank 5a: Damage (Stasis can now damage enemy health)
Rank 5b: Bubble (Bubble can trap enemies that walk into the bubble)
Rank 6a: Weakening (Enemies take 50% more damage for 10s after Stasis wears off)
Rank 6b: Vulnerability (Enemies can now be damaged from outside sources while in Stasis, but at 50% less damage. Stasis can now set up biotic explosions at 50% less combo damage).
(d) Flare is probably fine as-is, but can no longer detonate biotic explosions (it is an explosion). Maybe give it more damage to compensate?
(e) Lash is not really a biotic power. Remove. Do not add Smash (also not a biotic power).
(f) Slam is fine, just make it physics-based and do not make it detonate explosions anymore.
(g) Make Shockwave a bonus power. It needs its base radius and distance increased.
(f) Annhilation Field (Multiplayer power) should be an evolution of Barrier: Give Barrier the ability to damage enemies in its radius, maybe give it the ability to set up a biotic explosion.
(g) I think Nova is mostly fine as-is. Maybe remove 1 second of immunity like Kronner did in his Spectre Difficulty mod. The %chance evolutions could use an increase in %chance I think.
(h) Dark Channel is interesting but kind of lore-breaking. How does it "know" to jump from target to target? I suppose it is a mental thing, but still... I get the feeling that some aspects of Dark Channel could be moved to Warp (like maybe the Slow evolution).
On paper and in practice it works really well. The problem is that it is more balanced in multiplayer where you have limited options and can work together as a team. In single player it is stupid powerful and turns the game into "beat everything to death with the combo hammer". It also makes some combos better than others.
My biggest gripes:
1) All biotic combos are biotic explosions. All biotics can be used to make biotic explosions.
2) Biotics can detonate tech combos.
3) Combat powers can detonate tech combos.
4) You can combo enemies protected by shields, barriers, and armor. (Note that if an enemy has armor, it has no health)
So how does this affect balance? I will discuss biotic combos first.
Consider: If all biotics can be used to make biotic explosions, what separates the Adept, Sentinel, and Vanguard? Not much:
- The Sentinel has Warp+Throw, same as the Adept.
- The Vanguard has Pull+Shockwave, same as the Adept.
Now, the one thing that the Adept has going for it compared to the Sentinel and Vanguard, is that it has Pull/Singularity, Warp, and Throw/Shockwave, making it the best class for creating biotic explosions. But does that make it better than Sentinel or Vanguard at biotic explosions? On its own, definitely. But start including squadmates (Liara, Javik), and the Adept cannot do anything that the Vanguard or Sentinel cannot already do but better or more efficiently.
I know I wrote previously that I did not want to compare ME2 to ME3, but I feel I need to discuss how ME2 handled biotics. In ME2, biotics were mainly used for crowd-control:
- Pull lifted unprotected enemies into the air. Pulled enemies took more damage, took more force.
- Singularity lifted unprotected enemies, and held most protected enemies in place, slowly draining their defenses.
- Throw hit enemies with force, knocking unprotected enemies down. Throw increased in force when hitting enemies lifted by Pull or Singularity.
- Warp dealt good damage and extra damage to armor and barriers. It stopped Vorcha and Krogan from regenerating health. It detonated enemies lifted by Pull, Singularity, and Slam, dealing massive damage to the enemy and good damage to enemies in the explosion radius.
- Stasis held enemies immobile. Enemies could not be harmed while in Stasis.
- Shockwave was a cascading biotic force that would throw enemies away
- Reave would (inexplicably) replensh Shepard's health over time if it hit organic health. It dealt extra damage to armor and barriers.
- Slam lifted an enemy into the air and then slammed the enemy into the ground.
Each biotic power in ME2 had a role and played it fairly well. Biotic combos were either explosions (Lift/Singularity/Slam > Warp) or added increased force (Singularity/Pull > Throw/Shockwave/Charge). With the exception of Charge, the Adept could perform all biotic combos. The Sentinel needed squadmates to set up explosions for physics combos. The Vanguard could use Pull > Shockwave/Charge, but needed squadmates for explosions.
I feel that if biotic combos were separated into explosions and physics-based, then it would restore some balance to biotic combos and certainly make the Adept more unique. My suggestions:
A) Only Warp can detonate biotic explosions.
Only Pull, SIngularity, and Slam can set up biotic combos.C) Throw and Shockwave are physics-based and will deal increased force to enemies affected by Pull, Singularity, and Slam.
D) Biotic combos can only be detonated against health (more on this in another post).
E) As an exception to (A), perhaps allow for an evolution to Throw that would allow Throw to detonate an enemy affected by Warp.
This would allow the Adept to perform all biotic combos, while the Sentinel and Vanguard still need squadmate help and help improve the appeal of the Adept.
Some of my other thoughts on biotics (does not have much to do with balance, so feel free to ignore):
(a) Singularity and Pull need to be more distinct so you have a reason to want to use both powers. Possibilities include:
- Singularity being instant-cast.
- Singularity's duration being the same as the "Lift duration". I never understood why those two are different. It is annoying.
- Singularity having the ability to drain shields and barriers.
- Singularity can hold enemies in place more reliably (they cannot hop or roll out of it).
- If the above changes were made, then remove Singularity's current ability to remain after a biotic explosion. It can still stay active if you Throw or Slam an enemy out of it.
- Singularity needs to be wider.
The above would bring ME3 Singularity more in line with its ME2 counterpart. It would also mean you would cast it on an enemy or in an area, then use Pull while Singularity is still active.
(
Remove Reave. I never liked the idea, either in ME1 or ME2. "Reave" could be an evolution of Warp, although what it would actually do I have no idea. The instant-cast ability and Radius evolution or Reave could be moved to Warp.© Change Stasis so that by default you cannot damage enemies in Stasis. Allow it trap armored enemies, or at least the smaller armored enemies. Possible evolutions:
Rank 1: Stasis (base duration, recharge speed. enemy shields and barriers take damage over time)
Rank 2: Recharge Speed
Rank 3: Duration
Rank4a: Duration
Rank4b: Radius (allow you to trap more targets or bigger targets)
Rank 5a: Damage (Stasis can now damage enemy health)
Rank 5b: Bubble (Bubble can trap enemies that walk into the bubble)
Rank 6a: Weakening (Enemies take 50% more damage for 10s after Stasis wears off)
Rank 6b: Vulnerability (Enemies can now be damaged from outside sources while in Stasis, but at 50% less damage. Stasis can now set up biotic explosions at 50% less combo damage).
(d) Flare is probably fine as-is, but can no longer detonate biotic explosions (it is an explosion). Maybe give it more damage to compensate?
(e) Lash is not really a biotic power. Remove. Do not add Smash (also not a biotic power).
(f) Slam is fine, just make it physics-based and do not make it detonate explosions anymore.
(g) Make Shockwave a bonus power. It needs its base radius and distance increased.
(f) Annhilation Field (Multiplayer power) should be an evolution of Barrier: Give Barrier the ability to damage enemies in its radius, maybe give it the ability to set up a biotic explosion.
(g) I think Nova is mostly fine as-is. Maybe remove 1 second of immunity like Kronner did in his Spectre Difficulty mod. The %chance evolutions could use an increase in %chance I think.
(h) Dark Channel is interesting but kind of lore-breaking. How does it "know" to jump from target to target? I suppose it is a mental thing, but still... I get the feeling that some aspects of Dark Channel could be moved to Warp (like maybe the Slow evolution).
Modifié par RedCaesar97, 26 février 2013 - 03:01 .
#17
Posté 26 février 2013 - 02:48
RedCaesar97
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Apologies for my last treatise on biotics and the combo system. I promise this post will be shorter.
In this post, I will discuss some of my other gripes on the combo system, namely:
A) Biotic and combat powers can detonate tech combos.
Combat powers can set up combos.
C) Combos can work on or through defenses.
A. Biotic and combat powers can detonate tech combos.
This is a bit of a gripe of mine since biotics can already detonate biotics, but now they can detonate tech burst, fire explosions, and cryo explosions as well? Same with combat powers: Concussive Shot, grenades, and other combat powers can also detonate the different tech explosions.
I would prefer having biotics detonate only biotics, and let tech only detonate tech. I think that would make the Engineer stand out more from the Infiltrator. As it stands, the Engineer is still the best at setting up and detonating tech explosions, but the Infiltrator comes much too close. The Infiltrator lacks the pure shield damage the Engineer can dish out, and the Infiltrator lacks the consistent ability to detonate its own fire explosions, but most of the time that does not matter.
B. Combat powers can set up combos.
Incendiary Ammo, Disruptor Ammo, Cryo Ammo, and Carnage can set up explosions. I say remove the ability of combat powers from setting up combos. Leave the combos to tech and biotics.
Now this would seem to make the Soldier weaker, but I still think the Soldier is mostly fine. The Soldier mainly needs some numbers tweaks to make it balanced again. Some further changes would need to be made to the other classes. I will be discussing those later.
C. Combos can work on or through defenses.
Example 1: Sabotage a Centurian. Sabotage deals damage on the backfire, a lot of damage if you have Tech Vulnerability. Follow it up with Overload or Incinerate to kill the Centurian and possibly all the Troopers around him.
Example 2: Soldier shoots a Marauder with Disruptor Ammo. enemy is stunned even though he shields. Follow it up with Concussive Shot for a tech burst.
Example 3: Adept Warps a shielded Nemesis, then follows it up with Throw for a biotic explosion.
This is what bugs me between ME2 and ME3. Fans of ME1 might like it a little more, but even then it does not go back to the ME1 days of everything working through defenses, so it is like a weird in-between state from ME1 and ME3.
So how does this affect balance? It makes certain skills useless or pointless. The Engineer is a perfect example:
- Sabotage: Best tech primer in the game.
- Overload: Great tech detonator.
- Incinerate: Great tech detonator.
- Cryo Blast: fun to use, but the three aforementioned powers are just more effective.
- Combat Drone and Sentry Turret: In the time it takes to deploy either of the powers and have them start working, I just killed three goons with a tech burst and maybe a few bullets.
In this post, I will discuss some of my other gripes on the combo system, namely:
A) Biotic and combat powers can detonate tech combos.
Combat powers can set up combos.C) Combos can work on or through defenses.
A. Biotic and combat powers can detonate tech combos.
This is a bit of a gripe of mine since biotics can already detonate biotics, but now they can detonate tech burst, fire explosions, and cryo explosions as well? Same with combat powers: Concussive Shot, grenades, and other combat powers can also detonate the different tech explosions.
I would prefer having biotics detonate only biotics, and let tech only detonate tech. I think that would make the Engineer stand out more from the Infiltrator. As it stands, the Engineer is still the best at setting up and detonating tech explosions, but the Infiltrator comes much too close. The Infiltrator lacks the pure shield damage the Engineer can dish out, and the Infiltrator lacks the consistent ability to detonate its own fire explosions, but most of the time that does not matter.
B. Combat powers can set up combos.
Incendiary Ammo, Disruptor Ammo, Cryo Ammo, and Carnage can set up explosions. I say remove the ability of combat powers from setting up combos. Leave the combos to tech and biotics.
Now this would seem to make the Soldier weaker, but I still think the Soldier is mostly fine. The Soldier mainly needs some numbers tweaks to make it balanced again. Some further changes would need to be made to the other classes. I will be discussing those later.
C. Combos can work on or through defenses.
Example 1: Sabotage a Centurian. Sabotage deals damage on the backfire, a lot of damage if you have Tech Vulnerability. Follow it up with Overload or Incinerate to kill the Centurian and possibly all the Troopers around him.
Example 2: Soldier shoots a Marauder with Disruptor Ammo. enemy is stunned even though he shields. Follow it up with Concussive Shot for a tech burst.
Example 3: Adept Warps a shielded Nemesis, then follows it up with Throw for a biotic explosion.
This is what bugs me between ME2 and ME3. Fans of ME1 might like it a little more, but even then it does not go back to the ME1 days of everything working through defenses, so it is like a weird in-between state from ME1 and ME3.
So how does this affect balance? It makes certain skills useless or pointless. The Engineer is a perfect example:
- Sabotage: Best tech primer in the game.
- Overload: Great tech detonator.
- Incinerate: Great tech detonator.
- Cryo Blast: fun to use, but the three aforementioned powers are just more effective.
- Combat Drone and Sentry Turret: In the time it takes to deploy either of the powers and have them start working, I just killed three goons with a tech burst and maybe a few bullets.
#18
Posté 26 février 2013 - 02:52
RedCaesar97
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My sincerest apologies for such long posts. I hope I made some sense and stuck to the idea of balance well enough without meandering off into tangents about game mechanics too much.
In my next post I want to study the differences between the passive talent trees of the Soldier and Infiltrator (and possibly Vanguard) to see how they compare. It may be that the passive talents are fairly balanced. It will take some time to put it all together, probably for another day. At least it will have more raw numbers and stats and actual comparisons, instead of concepts and the meandering ramblings of a madman.
In my next post I want to study the differences between the passive talent trees of the Soldier and Infiltrator (and possibly Vanguard) to see how they compare. It may be that the passive talents are fairly balanced. It will take some time to put it all together, probably for another day. At least it will have more raw numbers and stats and actual comparisons, instead of concepts and the meandering ramblings of a madman.
Modifié par RedCaesar97, 26 février 2013 - 02:58 .
#19
Posté 26 février 2013 - 05:30
Abraham_uk
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RedCaesar97 wrote...
My sincerest apologies for such long posts. I hope I made some sense and stuck to the idea of balance well enough without meandering off into tangents about game mechanics too much.
In my next post I want to study the differences between the passive talent trees of the Soldier and Infiltrator (and possibly Vanguard) to see how they compare. It may be that the passive talents are fairly balanced. It will take some time to put it all together, probably for another day. At least it will have more raw numbers and stats and actual comparisons, instead of concepts and the meandering ramblings of a madman.
Don't appologise.
Long posts that are long because there is a lot to say are welcome here.
Long posts despite having little to say are superfluous.
Your posts belong to the former. Which is why I never regret taking the time to read your posts.
If you're going to take the time to post even more posts like the above, I'll be sure to keep this thread alive in the meantime.
Modifié par Abraham_uk, 26 février 2013 - 05:39 .
#20
Posté 26 février 2013 - 05:38
brad2240
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RedCaesar97 wrote...
Consider: If all biotics can be used to make biotic explosions, what separates the Adept, Sentinel, and Vanguard? Not much:
- The Sentinel has Warp+Throw, same as the Adept.
- The Vanguard has Pull+Shockwave, same as the Adept.
IMO, what separates them is what else the respective classes have to offer. Just talking about the powers they have in common doesn't show anywhere near the whole picture. But even limiting the discussion to biotic explosions, the Sentinel and Vanguard are limited to their one specific combo whereas the Adept has more options (to a fault) to achieve the same result, and achieve it faster and/or from a safer distance.
But Adepts don't have Overload or Tech Armor, Charge or ammo powers. I think you have to take all that into consideration when discussing what separates the classes. But I don't believe any class makes another redundant, at least in ME2 & 3, or that class A "should" be played like class B because they share common powers.
Now, the one thing that the Adept has going for it compared to the Sentinel and Vanguard, is that it has Pull/Singularity, Warp, and Throw/Shockwave, making it the best class for creating biotic explosions. But does that make it better than Sentinel or Vanguard at biotic explosions? On its own, definitely. But start including squadmates (Liara, Javik), and the Adept cannot do anything that the Vanguard or Sentinel cannot already do but better or more efficiently.
Can you clarify the bolded statement, please?
I ask because I'm not seeing it. Anything Liara sets up which the Sentinel can detonate with Warp or Throw, the Adept can do exactly the same and do it faster, (assuming TA is up) if only marginally so. Plus the Adept can set-up for Liara to detonate. By the same token, a Vanguard's explosions won't be as powerful as an Adept's if he uses Charge or Nova, and only equal to the Adept if using Shockwave.
At best, I would say they can do equal, but clearly aren't "better or more efficient." Am I missing something?
But, yeah, the waters get very muddied when you start adding squadmates to the equation. I could put Reave on a Soldier and run around with Liara making as many explosions as an Adept. But I think that's more of a problem with Liara and is part of the reason I rarely use her. It's also why I largely agree with your ideas of balancing the combo system.
Of course, I can also turn it around and say "why would I play a Sentinel when I can just take a squaddie with Overload alongside my Adept?" So six of one, half dozen of the other. Personal preference, I guess.
For me, the Adept is the class I go to when I just want to explode everything. I can do so quickly and easily and without tying myself down to one particular squadmate, which is an important consideration for me. Sentinels often have a better option that biotic explosions to use on enemies (read: Overload) and I play it as such so there is minimal overlap with my Adept. I don't play Vaguard much, but how often is trying to set up Pull + Shockwave better than Charge + Nova?
Having said all this, I'm not trying to claim that Adept is the better class or doesn't need balancing. It suffers from too much redundancy in its skillset and that could be changed, for starters. I'm just saying that, in comparison to other classes, it has it's place and isn't neccessarily beaten at it own game. All in my opinion, of course.
#21
Posté 26 février 2013 - 05:43
Abraham_uk
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All good points Brad.
I do like what the Adept has to offer. The adept is my favorite class. Having multiple ways to rag doll enemies is fine by me.
I do like what the Adept has to offer. The adept is my favorite class. Having multiple ways to rag doll enemies is fine by me.
#22
Posté 27 février 2013 - 01:46
RedCaesar97
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brad2240 wrote...
RedCaesar97 wrote...
Now, the one thing that the Adept has going for it compared to the Sentinel and Vanguard, is that it has Pull/Singularity, Warp, and Throw/Shockwave, making it the best class for creating biotic explosions. But does that make it better than Sentinel or Vanguard at biotic explosions? On its own, definitely. But start including squadmates (Liara, Javik), and the Adept cannot do anything that the Vanguard or Sentinel cannot already do but better or more efficiently.
Can you clarify the bolded statement, please?
I ask because I'm not seeing it. Anything Liara sets up which the Sentinel can detonate with Warp or Throw, the Adept can do exactly the same and do it faster, (assuming TA is up) if only marginally so. Plus the Adept can set-up for Liara to detonate. By the same token, a Vanguard's explosions won't be as powerful as an Adept's if he uses Charge or Nova, and only equal to the Adept if using Shockwave.
At best, I would say they can do equal, but clearly aren't "better or more efficient." Am I missing something?
But, yeah, the waters get very muddied when you start adding squadmates to the equation. I could put Reave on a Soldier and run around with Liara making as many explosions as an Adept. But I think that's more of a problem with Liara and is part of the reason I rarely use her. It's also why I largely agree with your ideas of balancing the combo system.
Hmm. I guess I was overreaching there. Thank you for pointing that out.
At least for the Sentinel, your cooldowns will be longer with Tech Armor active... unless you take Barrier or Defense Matrix on the Adept and then they are not. Fortification will be the same, but with a little less Damage Reduction. Both Sentinel and Adept can get the "Reset on Detonation" evolution of Throw.
Not sure why I really included Vanguard in the mix, but I guess I was starting to think of Charge+Nova and being nigh unkillable while detonating with squadmates. Again, not really part of my original point as I think I was overreaching there.
- - -
I think looking back at my post, I was advocating a return of the ME2 mechanics, not something I really wanted to do when discussing balance changes in ME3. I went against my own self-imposed rule. Stupid me.
Modifié par RedCaesar97, 27 février 2013 - 01:47 .
#23
Posté 27 février 2013 - 01:59
brad2240
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A return to ME2 mechanics wouldn't bother me at all. It was a much better balanced game, in regards to both class vs class and Shepard vs enemies.
#24
Posté 27 février 2013 - 03:00
RedCaesar97
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In this post, I want to compare the passive talent trees of the Soldier, Infiltrator, and Vanguard, and then hopefully come up with some ideas for balance suggestions.
The Soldier, Infiltrator, and Vanguard talent trees provide more weapon damage, weight capacity bonus, and power damage. The power damage does increase the damage dealt by Incendiary Ammo and Disruptor Ammo, so I feel this is a good baseline when comparing power damage, even though each class has additional skills that benefit from power damage.
NOTE 1: The Infiltrator passive provides sniper time dilation. The Vanguard passive increases force. I will purposely be ignoring these additional bonuses as I think they fit it in nicely with the Infiltrator and Vanguard. For the purposes of this comparison, I want to focus on the weapon damage, weight capacity bonus, and power damage provided by the talent trees; other powers which can increase weapon or power damage such as Tactical Cloak, Adrenaline Rush, and Biotic Charge will not be discussed.
NOTE 2: For each rank, I list the accumulated total bonuses for Weapon Damage, Weight Capacity Bonus, and Power Damage, along with additional damage bonuses that must be taken into consideration when discussing balance among the talent trees of the three weapons-based classes. You will notice that at rank 4b and 5a, I did not list the bonuses given. Rank 4a gives bonuses to reputation and power duration. Rank 5a gives squadmate bonuses, bonuses that do not apply to Shepard and therefore I did not want to take into consideration for these comparisions. For ranks 6a and 6b, I assume that both Rank 4a and 5b were selected.
Disruptor Ammo maximum damage with no power damage bonuses:
Health Damage Bonus: +15%
Shield and Barrier Damage Bonus: +60%
Incendiary Ammo with Damage (rank 4) and Explosive Burst (rank 6b):
Health and Armor Damage Bonus: +20%
Explosion damage: 100
Operational Mastery (Infiltrator):
RANK 1: Weapon Damage +2.5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 15
RANK 2: Weapon Damage +2.5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35
RANK 3: Weapon Damage +5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35
RANK 4a: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35, Power Damage +10%
RANK 4b: -Power duration, reputation bonus-
RANK 5a: -Squad Bonus-
RANK 5b: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70, Power Damage +10%
RANK 6a: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70, Power Damage +35%
RANK 6b: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70, Power Damage +10%, Sniper Rifle Damage +15%, Headshot Damage +15%
Disruptor Ammo with rank 4a:
Health Damage Bonus: +16.5%
Shield and Barrier Damage Bonus: +66%
Disruptor Ammo with rank 4a and 6a:
Health Damage Bonus: +20.25%
Shield and Barrier Damage Bonus: +81%
Combat Mastery (Soldier):
RANK 1: Weapon Damage +5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 20
RANK 2: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 20
RANK 3: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 50
RANK 4a: Weapon Damage +15%, Weight Capacity Bonus 50, Power Damage +10%
RANK 4b: -Power duration, reputation bonus-
RANK 5a: -Squad Bonus-
RANK 5b: Weapon Damage +15%, Weight Capacity Bonus 50, Power Damage +10%, Headshot dmg +20%
RANK 6a: Weapon Damage +15%, Weight Capacity Bonus 100, Power Damage +10%, Headshot dmg +20%
RANK 6b: Weapon Damage +25%, Weight Capacity Bonus 50, Power Damage +10%, Headshot +20%, Ammo Power Damage +40%
Disruptor Ammo with rank 4a:
Health Damage Bonus: +16.5%
Shield and Barrier Damage Bonus: +66%
Disruptor Ammo with rank 4a and 6a:
Health Damage Bonus: +22.5
Shield and Barrier Damage Bonus: +90%
Incendiary Ammo with rank 4a:
Health and Armor Damage Bonus: +22%
Explosion damage: 110
Incendiary Ammo with rank 4a and 6a:
Health and Armor Damage Bonus: +30%
Explosion damage: 150
Assault Mastery (Vanguard):
RANK 1: Weapon Damage +2.5%, Power Damage Bonus +5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 15
RANK 2: Weapon Damage +2.5%, Power Damage Bonus +5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35
RANK 3: Weapon Damage +5%, Power Damage Bonus +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35
RANK 4a: Weapon Damage +10%, Power Damage Bonus +20%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35
RANK 4b: -Influence and Force-
RANK 5a: -squad bonus-
RANK 5b: Weapon Damage +10%, Power Damage Bonus +20%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70
RANK 6a: Weapon Damage +10%, Power Damage Bonus +20%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70, Shotgun Dmg+15%
RANK 6b: Weapon Damage +10%, Power Damage Bonus +45%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70
Incendiary Ammo at rank 1:
Health Damage Bonus: 21+%
Armor Damage Bonus: 21+%
Explosion damage: 105
Incendiary Ammo at rank 3:
Health Damage Bonus: +22%
Armor Damage Bonus: +22%
Explosion damage: 110
Incendiary Ammo with rank 4a:
Health Damage Bonus: +24%
Armor Damage Bonus: +24%
Explosion damage: 120
Incendiary Ammo with rank 4a and rank 6b:
Health Damage Bonus: +29%
Armor Damage Bonus: +29%
Explosion damage: 145
Observations:
1) Other than the +10% power damage bonus at rank 4a, the Soldier gains no additional power damage for Frag Grenades or Concussive Shot.
2) The Vanguard can gain more power damage than the Infiltrator.
3) The Soldier can have more headshot damage than the Infiltrator (+20% versus +15%).
4) The Soldier is the only class that cannot maximize its weight capacity bonus at rank 5.
5) The Soldier can have a maximum of +25% weapon damage. The Vanguard can have a maximum of +10% weapon damage but an additional +15% shotgun damage (+25% total shotgun damage). The Infiltrator can have a maximum of +10% weapon damage but an additional +15% sniper rifle damage (+25% total sniper rifle damage).
6) If the Soldier takes the increased weapon and ammo power damage at rank 6 instead of the increased increased weight capacity bonus, both the Infiltrator and Vanguard can have a bigger weight capacity bonus.
Balance change suggestions:
1) Instead of headshot damage at rank 5b, the Soldier should have increased weight capacity bonus. This would match the other classes.
2) For Infiltrator's rank 6b increase sniper rifle damage to +25% (total of +35%) and headshot damage to +25%.
3) For Vanguard's rank 6a, increase shotgun damage to +25% (total of +35%).
4) To match the other combat classes, Soldier could have a choice at rank 6 to either increase weapon damage (rank 6a) or increase power damage (rank 6b).
5) Soldier only gains 10% all-purpose power damage. Soldier could use more power damage to increase damage of Frag Grenades and Concussive Shot; otherwise Frag Grenades could use a base damage increase. I think Concussive Shot is fine as it is: a low-damage multi-purpose power.
6) Soldier could possibly use an increase to stability and possibly accuracy.
7) Soldiers could possibly use a bigger increase to ammo power damage to further separate them from Infiltrators and Vanguards.
- - -
Apologies for such another long post.
The Soldier, Infiltrator, and Vanguard talent trees provide more weapon damage, weight capacity bonus, and power damage. The power damage does increase the damage dealt by Incendiary Ammo and Disruptor Ammo, so I feel this is a good baseline when comparing power damage, even though each class has additional skills that benefit from power damage.
NOTE 1: The Infiltrator passive provides sniper time dilation. The Vanguard passive increases force. I will purposely be ignoring these additional bonuses as I think they fit it in nicely with the Infiltrator and Vanguard. For the purposes of this comparison, I want to focus on the weapon damage, weight capacity bonus, and power damage provided by the talent trees; other powers which can increase weapon or power damage such as Tactical Cloak, Adrenaline Rush, and Biotic Charge will not be discussed.
NOTE 2: For each rank, I list the accumulated total bonuses for Weapon Damage, Weight Capacity Bonus, and Power Damage, along with additional damage bonuses that must be taken into consideration when discussing balance among the talent trees of the three weapons-based classes. You will notice that at rank 4b and 5a, I did not list the bonuses given. Rank 4a gives bonuses to reputation and power duration. Rank 5a gives squadmate bonuses, bonuses that do not apply to Shepard and therefore I did not want to take into consideration for these comparisions. For ranks 6a and 6b, I assume that both Rank 4a and 5b were selected.
Disruptor Ammo maximum damage with no power damage bonuses:
Health Damage Bonus: +15%
Shield and Barrier Damage Bonus: +60%
Incendiary Ammo with Damage (rank 4) and Explosive Burst (rank 6b):
Health and Armor Damage Bonus: +20%
Explosion damage: 100
Operational Mastery (Infiltrator):
RANK 1: Weapon Damage +2.5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 15
RANK 2: Weapon Damage +2.5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35
RANK 3: Weapon Damage +5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35
RANK 4a: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35, Power Damage +10%
RANK 4b: -Power duration, reputation bonus-
RANK 5a: -Squad Bonus-
RANK 5b: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70, Power Damage +10%
RANK 6a: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70, Power Damage +35%
RANK 6b: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70, Power Damage +10%, Sniper Rifle Damage +15%, Headshot Damage +15%
Disruptor Ammo with rank 4a:
Health Damage Bonus: +16.5%
Shield and Barrier Damage Bonus: +66%
Disruptor Ammo with rank 4a and 6a:
Health Damage Bonus: +20.25%
Shield and Barrier Damage Bonus: +81%
Combat Mastery (Soldier):
RANK 1: Weapon Damage +5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 20
RANK 2: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 20
RANK 3: Weapon Damage +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 50
RANK 4a: Weapon Damage +15%, Weight Capacity Bonus 50, Power Damage +10%
RANK 4b: -Power duration, reputation bonus-
RANK 5a: -Squad Bonus-
RANK 5b: Weapon Damage +15%, Weight Capacity Bonus 50, Power Damage +10%, Headshot dmg +20%
RANK 6a: Weapon Damage +15%, Weight Capacity Bonus 100, Power Damage +10%, Headshot dmg +20%
RANK 6b: Weapon Damage +25%, Weight Capacity Bonus 50, Power Damage +10%, Headshot +20%, Ammo Power Damage +40%
Disruptor Ammo with rank 4a:
Health Damage Bonus: +16.5%
Shield and Barrier Damage Bonus: +66%
Disruptor Ammo with rank 4a and 6a:
Health Damage Bonus: +22.5
Shield and Barrier Damage Bonus: +90%
Incendiary Ammo with rank 4a:
Health and Armor Damage Bonus: +22%
Explosion damage: 110
Incendiary Ammo with rank 4a and 6a:
Health and Armor Damage Bonus: +30%
Explosion damage: 150
Assault Mastery (Vanguard):
RANK 1: Weapon Damage +2.5%, Power Damage Bonus +5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 15
RANK 2: Weapon Damage +2.5%, Power Damage Bonus +5%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35
RANK 3: Weapon Damage +5%, Power Damage Bonus +10%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35
RANK 4a: Weapon Damage +10%, Power Damage Bonus +20%, Weight Capacity Bonus 35
RANK 4b: -Influence and Force-
RANK 5a: -squad bonus-
RANK 5b: Weapon Damage +10%, Power Damage Bonus +20%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70
RANK 6a: Weapon Damage +10%, Power Damage Bonus +20%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70, Shotgun Dmg+15%
RANK 6b: Weapon Damage +10%, Power Damage Bonus +45%, Weight Capacity Bonus 70
Incendiary Ammo at rank 1:
Health Damage Bonus: 21+%
Armor Damage Bonus: 21+%
Explosion damage: 105
Incendiary Ammo at rank 3:
Health Damage Bonus: +22%
Armor Damage Bonus: +22%
Explosion damage: 110
Incendiary Ammo with rank 4a:
Health Damage Bonus: +24%
Armor Damage Bonus: +24%
Explosion damage: 120
Incendiary Ammo with rank 4a and rank 6b:
Health Damage Bonus: +29%
Armor Damage Bonus: +29%
Explosion damage: 145
Observations:
1) Other than the +10% power damage bonus at rank 4a, the Soldier gains no additional power damage for Frag Grenades or Concussive Shot.
2) The Vanguard can gain more power damage than the Infiltrator.
3) The Soldier can have more headshot damage than the Infiltrator (+20% versus +15%).
4) The Soldier is the only class that cannot maximize its weight capacity bonus at rank 5.
5) The Soldier can have a maximum of +25% weapon damage. The Vanguard can have a maximum of +10% weapon damage but an additional +15% shotgun damage (+25% total shotgun damage). The Infiltrator can have a maximum of +10% weapon damage but an additional +15% sniper rifle damage (+25% total sniper rifle damage).
6) If the Soldier takes the increased weapon and ammo power damage at rank 6 instead of the increased increased weight capacity bonus, both the Infiltrator and Vanguard can have a bigger weight capacity bonus.
Balance change suggestions:
1) Instead of headshot damage at rank 5b, the Soldier should have increased weight capacity bonus. This would match the other classes.
2) For Infiltrator's rank 6b increase sniper rifle damage to +25% (total of +35%) and headshot damage to +25%.
3) For Vanguard's rank 6a, increase shotgun damage to +25% (total of +35%).
4) To match the other combat classes, Soldier could have a choice at rank 6 to either increase weapon damage (rank 6a) or increase power damage (rank 6b).
5) Soldier only gains 10% all-purpose power damage. Soldier could use more power damage to increase damage of Frag Grenades and Concussive Shot; otherwise Frag Grenades could use a base damage increase. I think Concussive Shot is fine as it is: a low-damage multi-purpose power.
6) Soldier could possibly use an increase to stability and possibly accuracy.
7) Soldiers could possibly use a bigger increase to ammo power damage to further separate them from Infiltrators and Vanguards.
- - -
Apologies for such another long post.
Modifié par RedCaesar97, 27 février 2013 - 05:16 .
#25
Posté 27 février 2013 - 11:27
Dieb
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- Members
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As an Infiltrator since the very beginning of Mass Effect, I agree that the tactical cloak has become too powerful in ME3. Apart from that though, I'm convinced that the Infiltrator should be the class with the higghest weapon damage, by far.
HOWEVER: This should only apply to sniper rifles. This way, the class would work a lot better; trade high damage to a single target against flexibility/speed.
But then again, I'm admittedly looking at it very close minded, since to me the Infiltrator should whield nothing but a SR and a pistol as a sidearm; I see the class more as a classical sniper/scout, rather than a ninja.
P.S.: I also don't really like how most of the new SRs are basically assualt rifles with a scope... and the Black Widow is pure blasphemy! Blasphemy I say! Yeah, now I may be rambling... :]
HOWEVER: This should only apply to sniper rifles. This way, the class would work a lot better; trade high damage to a single target against flexibility/speed.
But then again, I'm admittedly looking at it very close minded, since to me the Infiltrator should whield nothing but a SR and a pistol as a sidearm; I see the class more as a classical sniper/scout, rather than a ninja.
P.S.: I also don't really like how most of the new SRs are basically assualt rifles with a scope... and the Black Widow is pure blasphemy! Blasphemy I say! Yeah, now I may be rambling... :]
Modifié par Baelrahn, 27 février 2013 - 11:31 .
