61 réponses à ce sujet

[RedCaesar97]

Baelrahn wrote...

As an Infiltrator since the very beginning of Mass Effect, I agree that the tactical cloak has become too powerful in ME3. Apart from that though, I'm convinced that the Infiltrator should be the class with the higghest weapon damage, by far.

HOWEVER: This should only apply to sniper rifles. This way, the class would work a lot better; trade high damage to a single target against flexibility/speed.

In my opinion, with maybe a few exceptions, no powers or passive talents should give weapon damage bonuses. One of the exceptions could be Tactical Cloak. For one evolution (and one evolution only), it could could give a damage bonus to one shot (or one bullet if you want to be even more restrictive) but also at the expense that it decloaks immediately. This would give you the spike damage you are looking for.

[Dieb]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

In my opinion, with maybe a few exceptions, no powers or passive talents should give weapon damage bonuses. One of the exceptions could be Tactical Cloak. For one evolution (and one evolution only), it could could give a damage bonus to one shot (or one bullet if you want to be even more restrictive) but also at the expense that it decloaks immediately. This would give you the spike damage you are looking for.

But that's what it does already...
I mean, I only ever use single shot SRs... does the damage boost last for more than one shot with other weapons?

[brad2240]

Another excellent post, Red.

RedCaesar97 wrote...

6) If the Soldier takes additional weight capacity at rank 6 instead of increased weapon and ammo power damage, both the Infiltrator and Vanguard can have a bigger weight capacity bonus.

Do you mean "if the Soldier does NOT take additional weight capacity..."? If he takes it, he does have a bigger cap.

1) Instead of headshot damage at rank 5b, the Soldier should have increased weight capacity bonus. This would match the other classes.
2) For Infiltrator's rank 6b increase sniper rifle damage to +25% (total of +35%) and headshot damage to +25%. 
3) For Vanguard's rank 6a, increase shotgun damage to +25% (total of +35%).
4) To match the other combat classes, Soldier could have a choice at rank 6 to either increase weapon damage (rank 6a) or increase power damage (rank 6b). 

#1 I agree with totally. This is what I've thought since the first time I played ME3.

For #2 & #3 I find it interesting that you suggest additional weapon damage for VGs and Infiltrators, but aren't suggesting it for Soldiers. IMO, those classes should be as good as Soldiers with their "typical" weapons (not better than) and should be behind Soldiers with other weapons. I say that considering that those classes are much more capable in areas other than weapon damage, though I realize that goes beyond the scope of what you're directly discussing here.

Now #4, how much power damage are you talking about? And do you think a power increase would be an attractive benefit for a Soldier over a weapons bonus? There's a couple reasons I can't get behind the idea:

1 - Without Weapon Mastery at rank 6, Soldier does not do significantly more weapon damage than any other class. That just seems wrong to me, when weapons damage should be the focus of the class.

2 - No powers to make it worth it. Frags needs it own buff, and nobody uses Conc Shot for damage anyway. Bonus powers could change the equation, but a Soldier is never going to compete by trying to turn it into some kind of pseudo-caster. And unless your talking about a bonus of 40% or more, ammo powers are still better off with Weapon Mastery.

I thought that maybe another weight increase (beyond the 100 if it was taken at rank 5) would work, but I'm not really sure. It actually wouldn't be that attractive to me because my playstyle is using just one or two guns anyway, but I know a lot of people think of Soldiers as walking arsenals. Maybe a combination of weight capacity and power damage, similiar to the rank 4 passive evo of most MP characters? 

I really think BW nailed it with the Turian passives in MP. Excellent damage bonus as well as increased stability. Weapons just handle better in thier hands, and thats what the Soldier needs in SP, if other class's powers are going to remain as strong as they are.

[brad2240]

Baelrahn wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

In my opinion, with maybe a few exceptions, no powers or passive talents should give weapon damage bonuses. One of the exceptions could be Tactical Cloak. For one evolution (and one evolution only), it could could give a damage bonus to one shot (or one bullet if you want to be even more restrictive) but also at the expense that it decloaks immediately. This would give you the spike damage you are looking for.

But that's what it does already...
I mean, I only ever use single shot SRs... does the damage boost last for more than one shot with other weapons?

Yes, there is a damage window there after cloak breaks. I believe it is 2.5 seconds. So any shots you can get off in that window gets the bonus.

[RedCaesar97]

brad2240 wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

6) If the Soldier takes additional weight capacity at rank 6 instead of increased weapon and ammo power damage, both the Infiltrator and Vanguard can have a bigger weight capacity bonus.

Do you mean "if the Soldier does NOT take additional weight capacity..."? If he takes it, he does have a bigger cap.

Yes, that is what I meant to write. I just went back and fixed it. Thank you for pointing that out.

brad2240 wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
1) Instead of headshot damage at rank 5b, the Soldier should have increased weight capacity bonus. This would match the other classes.
2) For Infiltrator's rank 6b increase sniper rifle damage to +25% (total of +35%) and headshot damage to +25%. 
3) For Vanguard's rank 6a, increase shotgun damage to +25% (total of +35%).
4) To match the other combat classes, Soldier could have a choice at rank 6 to either increase weapon damage (rank 6a) or increase power damage (rank 6b). 

#1 I agree with totally. This is what I've thought since the first time I played ME3.

For #2 & #3 I find it interesting that you suggest additional weapon damage for VGs and Infiltrators, but aren't suggesting it for Soldiers. IMO, those classes should be as good as Soldiers with their "typical" weapons (not better than) and should be behind Soldiers with other weapons. I say that considering that those classes are much more capable in areas other than weapon damage, though I realize that goes beyond the scope of what you're directly discussing here.

I was just looking at the passive bonuses to weapon damage for weapons. However, looking at it your way, I really should have taken into account other factors:
 - Infiltrators have sniper time dilation included in their passive. This makes them more natural snipers to begin with, so having more sniper damage than Soldiers does not make as much sense. Soldiers can use Adrenaline Rush for time dilation, but that has a cooldown.
 - Vanguards have Charge to get in close quickly, restore shields, and add damage protection. Soldiers have Adrenaline Rush to help accomplish the same thing, but Charge just does it better. So in this regard, having more shotgun damage does not make as much sense.

So basically, I went too far in my assessment and forgot about some other important factors, even though I was merely comparing certain damage stats. I was thinking that the Soldier should be the best at dealing damage with all weapons, but not outperform Infiltrators at sniping and Vanguards at shotgunning. Weapon Damage is only one factor and I narrowed in too much on weapon damage in this case.

Excellent points, brad.

brad2240 wrote...

Now #4, how much power damage are you talking about? And do you think a power increase would be an attractive benefit for a Soldier over a weapons bonus? There's a couple reasons I can't get behind the idea:

1 - Without Weapon Mastery at rank 6, Soldier does not do significantly more weapon damage than any other class. That just seems wrong to me, when weapons damage should be the focus of the class.

2 - No powers to make it worth it. Frags needs it own buff, and nobody uses Conc Shot for damage anyway. Bonus powers could change the equation, but a Soldier is never going to compete by trying to turn it into some kind of pseudo-caster. And unless your talking about a bonus of 40% or more, ammo powers are still better off with Weapon Mastery.

I thought that maybe another weight increase (beyond the 100 if it was taken at rank 5) would work, but I'm not really sure. It actually wouldn't be that attractive to me because my playstyle is using just one or two guns anyway, but I know a lot of people think of Soldiers as walking arsenals. Maybe a combination of weight capacity and power damage, similiar to the rank 4 passive evo of most MP characters? 

I really think BW nailed it with the Turian passives in MP. Excellent damage bonus as well as increased stability. Weapons just handle better in thier hands, and thats what the Soldier needs in SP, if other class's powers are going to remain as strong as they are.

Not sure how much power damage. Maybe a 25% increase (for +35% total) to match the Infiltrator? But like you said,  Frag Grenades should get its own buff instead. 

Also agree that the Turian passives in multiplayer would be what the Soldier needs in single player.

And like you suggest, maybe a further weight capacity increase (assuming an increase at rank 5b instead of headshots) so you can carry more weapons, or two really heavy weapons like the both the Javelin and the Claymore. Like you, I rarely carry more than one or two weapons anyway.

[Abraham_uk]

I am all for a Turian style passive for soldiers.

My idea:

The assault rifles with the highest dps being the ones with the highest recoil.

Only the soldier can keep these weapons stable without resorting to stability mods.

The soldier gets better accuracy with all weapons. So even if other classes reduce the stability on the high powered assault rifles, soldier will still have the edge since they will have a much smaller spread.

[RedCaesar97]

Forgive me, but I am about to create another monster post.

I already posted my thoughts comparing the passive talents of the Soldier, Infiltrator, and Vanguard, but I want to take another look at the passive talents of all six classes. 


class Passives:
First, I want to list the talent trees for all six classes. This will give everyone reading this a rundown of the talent trees without having to look them up online elsewhere. 

Combat Mastery (Soldier):
Rank 1: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +5%, Weight Capacity +20
Rank 2: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +5% 
Rank 3: Reputation +4%, Weight Capacity +30

Rank 4a: Weapon Damage +5%, Power Damage +10%
Rank 4b: Reputation +8%, Power Duration +25%

Rank 5a: Squadmate Weapon Damage +20%
Rank 5b: Headshot Damage + 20%

Rank 6a: Weight Capacity +50
Rank 6b: Weapon Damage +10%, Ammo Power Damage +40%


Operational Mastery (Infiltrator):
Rank 1: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +2.5%, Weight Capacity +15, Sniper Time Dilation +25%
Rank 2: Reputation +4%, Weight Capacity +20
Rank 3: Reputation +4%, Sniper Time Dilation +10%, Weapon Damage +2.5%

Rank 4a: Weapon Damage +5%, Power Damage +10%
Rank 4b: Reputation +8%, Power Duration +25%, 

Rank 5a: Squadmate Weapon Damage +10%, Squadmate Power Damage and Force +15%
Rank 5b: Weight Capacity +35

Rank 6a: Power Damage +25%, Power Duration +25%
Rank 6b: Sniper Rifle Damage +15%, Headshot Damage +15%


Assault Mastery (Vanguard):
Rank 1: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +2.5%, Power Damage +5%, Weight Capacity +15
Rank 2: Reputation +4%, Weight Capacity +20
Rank 3: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +2.5%, Power Damage +5%

Rank 4a: Power Damage +10%, Weapon Damage +5%
Rank 4b: Reputation +8%, Force +30%

Rank 5a: Squadmate Weapon +10%, Squadmate Power Damage +15%
Rank 5b: Weight Capacity +35

Rank 6a: Shotgun Damage +15%
Rank 6b: Power Damage +25%, Power Duration and Force +25%


Biotic Mastery (Adept):
Rank 1: Reputation +4%, Power Damage +10%, Weight Capacity +10
Rank 2: Reputation +4%, Weight Capacity +20
Rank 3: Reputation +4%, Power Damage and Force +10%

Rank 4a: Power Damage +15%, Force Damage +15%
Rank 4b: Reputation +8%, Power Duration +25%

Rank 5a: Squadmate Power Damage and Force +30%
Rank 5b: Power Damage and Force +10%, Weight Capacity +20

Rank 6a: Increase power recharge speed by 40% for 30s when detonating biotic combos
Rank 6b: Power Damage and Force +25%, Power Duration +25%


Tech Mastery (Engineer):
Rank 1: Reputation +4%, Power Damage +10%, Weight Capacity +10
Rank 2: Reputation +4%, Weight Capacity +20
Rank 3: Reputation +4%, Power Damage +10%

Rank 4a: Power Damage +15%
Rank 4b: Reputation +8%, Power Duration +25%

Rank 5a: Squadmate power damage and force +30%
Rank 5b: Power Damage +10%, Weight Capacity +20

Rank 6a: Combat Drone and Sentry Turret shields +100%, Combat Drone and Sentry Turret damage +50%
Rank 6b: Power Damage +25%, Power Duration +25%


Offensive Mastery (Sentinel):
Rank 1: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +2.5%, Power Damage +5%, Weight Capacity +15
Rank 2: Reputation +4%, Weight Capacity Bonus +20
Rank 3: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +2.5%, Power Damage and Force +5%

Rank 4a: Power Damage and Force +15%
Rank 4b: Reputation +8%, Power Duration +25%

Rank 5a: Squadmate power and force damage +15%, Squadmate weapon damage +10%
Rank 5b: Weight Capacity +35

Rank 6a: Power and Force Damage +25%, Power Duration +25%
Rank 6b: 15% chance a power will cause no cooldown


Observations:
NOTE: I may be re-hashing some of these observations from a previous post. I will try my best not to overlap where possible.

1) The Soldier is the only class that cannot maximize its weight capacity bonus at rank 5.

2) Is there any point to taking Rank 4b on any class?

3) The Vanguard can gain more power damage than the Infiltrator.

4) The Soldier can have more headshot damage than the Infiltrator (+20% versus +15%).

5) If the Soldier takes the increased weapon and ammo power damage at rank 6 instead of the increased increased weight capacity bonus, The Soldier can have the same weight capacity as the Engineer and Adept, and less than the Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Sentinel.

6) For Rank 5a (squadmate power and weapon damage bonuses), the squadmate bonuses in the hybrid classes are half the bonuses in the pure classes. For Adept and Engineer, squadmate power bonuses are 30%, while Soldier squadmate weapon damage bonus is only 20%.

7) At rank 5b, Engineer and Adept gain +10% power damage bonuses along with the weight capacity bonus.


Balance suggestion changes:
NOTE: I may be re-hashing some of these observations from a previous post. I will try my best not to overlap where possible.

1) Ideally, the Soldier would have the Weight Capacity Bonus at rank 5b like the other classes. Although if that happened, what should be the rank 6b bonuses? Maybe a 15% power damage bonus that would apply to all powers, along with the headshot bonus, or maybe a small damage reduction bonus? Or perhaps leave it as it curently stands and increase the weight capacity bonus at rank 1?

2) Soldier should not have a higher headshot bonus than the Infiltrator. Drop the headshot bonus to 15%, and/or increase the Infiltrator's headshot bonus to 20%.

3) Rank 4b is pitiful on all classes. Other than some rare, unusual, or highly specific circumstances--such as self-imposed power restrictions--Is there ever any reason to choose rank 4a over rank 4b? I will admit that I have no idea how to balance it. Likely new bonuses would have to be added in those ranks to make them worthwhile.

4) For Adept and Engineer at rank 5b,  move the 10% power damage bonus to rank 2. This would force a choice between more weight capacity or better squadmate power.

5) For the Soldier at tank 5a, increase squadmate weapon damage to 30%, to match the squadmate power damage bonuses at rank 5a for the Engineer and Adept. Likewise, increase the squadmate weapon damage bonuses to 15% for the Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Sentinel at rank 5a.

6) Increase the potential power damage bonus of the Infiltrator to match the Vanguard. Keep in mind that I am fully aware of how stupidly powerful Single-Player Tactical Cloak is in its current state. Tactical Cloak needs to be changed and suggestions have been discussed before in this thread.


- - -

Again, I apologize for the long post.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 21 mars 2013 - 02:21 .

[Athenau]

Balancing the soldier and infiltrator is easy:

Infiltrator:

* Remove cloak minimum cooldown mechanic (most broken part of cloak, infiltrators should care about weight)
* Remove the ability to stack marksman + cloak.

Soldier:
* Weight capacity bonus moved to tier 5 of passive.
* Substantial passive bonus to accuracy + stability available at tier 6 (combine with weapon damage bonus, power/ammo damage moved to alternate evolution).
* Flat damage removed from inferno explosion proc (people complain about cloak + marksman, inferno ammo is almost as broken for high ROF weapons). Instead explosion should do regular ammo DoT in a large AoE as well as a high (> 50% panic chance on organics).
* Adrenaline rush shield boost evo gets the MP 100% buff.
* Adrenaline rush gets the MP 6 sec recharge

I don't have a problem with soldiers and infiltrators doing similar dps, but soldiers should be able to carry more weapons and to get use out of weapons that other classes can't (hence the stability + accuracy bonuses).

Modifié par Athenau, 21 mars 2013 - 03:19 .

[godlike13]

RedCaesar97 wrote...
3) Rank 4b is pitiful on all classes. Other than some rare, unusual, or highly specific circumstances--such as self-imposed power restrictions--Is there ever any reason to choose rank 4a over rank 4b? I will admit that I have no idea how to balance it. Likely new bonuses would have to be added in those ranks to make them worthwhile.

For a higher reputation early on to clear persuasion checks.

[brad2240]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

1) Ideally, the Soldier would have the Weight Capacity Bonus at rank 5b like the other classes. Although if that happened, what should be the rank 6b bonuses? Maybe a 15% power damage bonus that would apply to all powers, along with the headshot bonus, or maybe a small damage reduction bonus? Or perhaps leave it as it curently stands and increase the weight capacity bonus at rank 1?

2) Soldier should not have a higher headshot bonus than the Infiltrator. Drop the headshot bonus to 15%, and/or increase the Infiltrator's headshot bonus to 20%.

3) Rank 4b is pitiful on all classes. Other than some rare, unusual, or highly specific circumstances--such as self-imposed power restrictions--Is there ever any reason to choose rank 4a over rank 4b? I will admit that I have no idea how to balance it. Likely new bonuses would have to be added in those ranks to make them worthwhile.

4) For Adept and Engineer at rank 5b,  move the 10% power damage bonus to rank 2. This would force a choice between more weight capacity or better squadmate power.

5) For the Soldier at tank 5a, increase squadmate weapon damage to 30%, to match the squadmate power damage bonuses at rank 5a for the Engineer and Adept. Likewise, increase the squadmate weapon damage bonuses to 15% for the Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Sentinel at rank 5a.

6) Increase the potential power damage bonus of the Infiltrator to match the Vanguard. Keep in mind that I am fully aware of how stupidly powerful Single-Player Tactical Cloak is in its current state. Tactical Cloak needs to be changed and suggestions have been discussed before in this thread.

1) Fold the Headshot Damage into Weapon Mastery at rank 6. Make rank 5b +35 weight like all other classes, and keep rank 6a +50 weight. Or make it +75. Soldiers should have a definitive weight advantage if players choose that style.

2) Ok. But, in practice, isn't a Cloaked headshot going to do more than an Arushed headshot anyway?

3) I see no reason to take it. Rep is easily gained, and Power Duration is pretty useless when everything dies before the duration is up anyway. Any thoughts on what to add? Weapon Damage bonuses, maybe?

4) I don't think it would. Because Shepard is doing the lion's share of the damage, 20% better coooldowns for him/her is pretty much always superior to better squad powers. And really, how often are we concerned with a squadmate's raw power damage?

5) Sounds good.

6) Infiltrator also get sniper dilation, while VG gets nothing to correspond to that. Is it worth figuring into the equation?  

[RA RA XD]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

1) Ideally, the Soldier would have the Weight Capacity Bonus at rank 5b like the other classes. Although if that happened, what should be the rank 6b bonuses? Maybe a 15% power damage bonus that would apply to all powers, along with the headshot bonus, or maybe a small damage reduction bonus? Or perhaps leave it as it curently stands and increase the weight capacity bonus at rank 1? 

Prepare for a monster post.

How about making a clear distinction between the two things the soldier has always done best: survivability via damage resistance (see "shock trooper" in ME1 and 2) and damage across all weapon types (see "commando" in ME1 and 2).

On the "shock trooper" branch offer:

• increased damage resistance
• increased weapon stability and accuracy (see MP turian passive)
• increased weapon capacity (i.e. the number of shots in each thermal clip)

This evolution benefits a tank class that favours fast firing, low control weapon like the revenant and typhoon. The increased damage resistance is pretty self explanatory for a tank (note that the soldier should offer tanking ability to rival that of the sentinel as the latter is a "jack of all trades" class and not necessarily a tank). The increased stability and capacity (the number of shots per thermal clip) would provide the most benefit to machine guns like the revenant and typhoon that suit a tanking class able to provide sustained fire while shrugging of a great deal of damage (note the capacity benefit should be <100% to nul this benefit for powerful one shot weapons). The capacity would also provide a sizable benefit for the reegar carbine, piranha shotgun and even some high capacity sniper rifles like the viper, all well suited to a class centred around tanking and support.

On the "commando" branch offer:

• increased weapon and headshot damage
• increased spare ammunition capacity (i.e. the number of spare clips of ammunition)
• increased storm speed (sprint dilation)

This evolution benefits a class centered around weapon damage with high damage, low capacity weapons like the claymore, javalin and executioner pistol. Once again, the increased weapon damage is pretty obvious (note the headshot damage increase should fall just short of the infiltrator). The increased ammunition capacity would be extremely desirable for a weapon centric class that favor say the claymore, whose main weakness is reserve ammunition capacity (10 rounds can only go so far for even the claymore). The storm speed bonus was one of my favourite aspects of the ME2 soldier, it gave the class a really unique gameplay aspect that the ME3 rendition lacks. The most comparable mechanic in ME3 is probably the infiltrators sniper time dilation, except it activates when you sprint.The upshot of this is that you can run paralel to your enemies and barely take a hit. In addition, small increases in storm speed should be distributed throughout the lower reaches of the tree, similar to sniper dilation.

I think the soldier can afford to miss out on power damage bonuses, on the condition that frag grenades and carnage recieve a damage buff. If not, a power damage evolution should be provided earlier in the tree considering most soldier builds make heavy use of grenades.

Modifié par RA RA XD, 21 mars 2013 - 08:25 .

[Abraham_uk]

godlike13 wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
3) Rank 4b is pitiful on all classes. Other than some rare, unusual, or highly specific circumstances--such as self-imposed power restrictions--Is there ever any reason to choose rank 4a over rank 4b? I will admit that I have no idea how to balance it. Likely new bonuses would have to be added in those ranks to make them worthwhile.

For a higher reputation early on to clear persuasion checks.

In Mass Effect 2 I didn't always pass the persuasion checks.
So with my classes I'd always pick the specialisation with the best reputation bonuses.


In Mass Effect 3 I very rarely encountered a situation where I couldn't pass a persuasion check.

[RedCaesar97]

brad2240 wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
...
2) Soldier should not have a higher headshot bonus than the Infiltrator. Drop the headshot bonus to 15%, and/or increase the Infiltrator's headshot bonus to 20%.
...
4) For Adept and Engineer at rank 5b,  move the 10% power damage bonus to rank 2. This would force a choice between more weight capacity or better squadmate power.
...
6) Increase the potential power damage bonus of the Infiltrator to match the Vanguard. Keep in mind that I am fully aware of how stupidly powerful Single-Player Tactical Cloak is in its current state. Tactical Cloak needs to be changed and suggestions have been discussed before in this thread.

2) Ok. But, in practice, isn't a Cloaked headshot going to do more than an Arushed headshot anyway?
...
4) I don't think it would. Because Shepard is doing the lion's share of the damage, 20% better coooldowns for him/her is pretty much always superior to better squad powers. And really, how often are we concerned with a squadmate's raw power damage?
...
6) Infiltrator also get sniper dilation, while VG gets nothing to correspond to that. Is it worth figuring into the equation?  

2) Sure, a cloaked headshot will always deal more damage than an uncloaked headshot. But I guess I just think that you may be shooting outside of Adrenaline Rush/Cloak so I think the Infiltrator should gain the same or better headshot bonus as the Soldier. I think we can all agree that Tactical Cloak is brokenly overpowered anyway.

4) My thinking is that if you already carry a light weapon or two light weapons at most, then the extra weight capacity is meaningless so you should take the squadmate bonus. If you want to carry a heavier weapon like the Claymore or Widow and still have decent cooldowns, then the Weight Capacity would be the better option. Right now, I only take the weight capacity at rank 5 since it also adds power damage. I guess I am mostly concerned with Tech-based squadmates who really need the power damage since they tend to have longer cooldowns.

6) Tech powers rely more on raw power damage than biotics, so I would think that the Infiltrator would need as much or more power damage than the Vanguard if you use powers more. Tactical Cloak obviously screws that up a lot. Maybe a small nerf (5%) to the Vanguard instead? Infiltrator can get 35% power damage from passive which as half of the Engineer's 70%, so that seems appropriate already.

At the very least, if single player Tactical Cloak saw the changes made to the multiplayer cloak, then tech-focused Infiltrators would at least be forced to take the Duration evolution which only has 40% damage. It would at least bring the Infiltrator down a notch from having clearly the best of both weapon-and-power damage worlds, to... still having the best of both worlds but to a lesser degree.

I think everyone can agree that Tactical Cloak needs to be re-worked, and everyone in this thread has provided their thoughts on what needs to change in Tactical Cloak.

[RedCaesar97]

RA RA XD wrote...
<snip>

I like your ideas. I miss some of the abilities of the ME2 Soldier, namely the storm speed. 

Your ideas help improve the Soldier and provide incentive for some slightly different playstyles. It would make it the weapon master it needs to be without being the pure sniper, shotgunner, or tank that the Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Sentinel currently are. 

[brad2240]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

4) My thinking is that if you already carry a light weapon or two light weapons at most, then the extra weight capacity is meaningless so you should take the squadmate bonus. If you want to carry a heavier weapon like the Claymore or Widow and still have decent cooldowns, then the Weight Capacity would be the better option. Right now, I only take the weight capacity at rank 5 since it also adds power damage. I guess I am mostly concerned with Tech-based squadmates who really need the power damage since they tend to have longer cooldowns.

I guess I'm the opposite. I take Weight Cap for the extra cooldown to give me more wiggle room with mid-weight weapons. I don't really think too much about the power damage. And, with the way squadmates work in this game, I've never considered a buff to them to be more valuable than a buff to Shepard.

At the very least, if single player Tactical Cloak saw the changes made to the multiplayer cloak, then tech-focused Infiltrators would at least be forced to take the Duration evolution which only has 40% damage.

Why do you think it would force anybody to take Duration? ME3 makes Tac Cloak into little more than a pure damage booster, with little to no reason to not shoot/cast immediately after cloaking. In MP, as far as I know, the few people who take Duration do so for objectives, which has no equivalent in SP.

Also, with the Bonus Power evo, an Infiltrator with low weight can fire off two powers in the standard 5 sec. Cloak window. Alternatively, they can just Cloak and cast the second power 3 seconds later.

I could be missing something, but I don't see any reason for an SP Infiltrator t take Duration over Damage, even if Cloak recieved it's MP changes.

[capn233]

I like the idea of rolling at the least stability into Combat Mastery. Not sure what the best way to manipulate the evolutions are. Weight Capacity bonus at Rank 1 should be 30, and Rank 3 should be 40 for a total of 70 bonus before even getting to Rank 4. Maybe something like this:

Combat Mastery (Soldier):
Rank 1: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +5%, Weight Capacity +30
Rank 2: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +5%
Rank 3: Reputation +4%, Weight Capacity +40

Rank 4a: Weapon Damage +5%, Weapon Stability +20% (Named "Damage and Stability")
Rank 4b: Power Damage +10%, Power Duration +25% (Named "Damage and Duration")

Rank 5a: Squadmate Weapon Damage +20%
Rank 5b: Weight Capacity +50

Rank 6a: Weapon Accuracy +20%, Weapon Stability +25%, Damage Reduction +25% (Shock Trooper)
Rank 6b: Weapon Damage +10%, Ammo Power Damage +40%, Storm speed +15% (Commando)

[RedCaesar97]

brad2240 wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
At the very least, if single player Tactical Cloak saw the changes made to the multiplayer cloak, then tech-focused Infiltrators would at least be forced to take the Duration evolution which only has 40% damage.

Why do you think it would force anybody to take Duration? ME3 makes Tac Cloak into little more than a pure damage booster, with little to no reason to not shoot/cast immediately after cloaking. In MP, as far as I know, the few people who take Duration do so for objectives, which has no equivalent in SP.

Also, with the Bonus Power evo, an Infiltrator with low weight can fire off two powers in the standard 5 sec. Cloak window. Alternatively, they can just Cloak and cast the second power 3 seconds later.

I could be missing something, but I don't see any reason for an SP Infiltrator t take Duration over Damage, even if Cloak recieved it's MP changes.

I never take Duration in single player because the Damage evolution has more than enough duration

As an Infiltrator with the Free Power evolution, I can:
1) Cloak.
2) Use Sabotage and stay cloaked.
3) Use Incinerate for a tech burst.
4) Shoot while I still have the damage bonus.

Yes, even with the multiplayer changes you can still do that with Damage cloak, but that at least it would make you think about taking Duration instead of Damage.

[Tach Prime]

I think the adjustments to tac cloak shouldn't be anything to drastic just real simple tweaks.

first of all powers should be grayed out and unable to be used unless 6a is chosen.
second 4b should be just weapon damage not power damage as well.
third the duration should be brought down to mp standards so duration at 4a at least looks appealing and have an added ability of letting your shields recharge if selected.

the third option allows tac cloak to be a runnaway and repostion power so you loose aggro and can heal with a duration long enough to get defenses back and then either use an ability or take a shot but sacrifice the extra damage.

Modifié par Tach Prime, 22 mars 2013 - 08:48 .

[Tach Prime]

Another suggestion would be to leave duration the same but move 6a to 4a, with the same grayed out option as above.
make 4b just a weapon damage bonus as above,
Redesign 6a to fire two powers while cloak eliminating the cooldown of the first power if 4a is chosen or just the one power if 4a isn't selected.

This essentially would make tac cloak either a power spamming aiding ability, or a weapon boosting ability, or a weak hybrid of both.

[RA RA XD]

capn233 wrote...

Combat Mastery (Soldier):
Rank 1: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +5%, Weight Capacity +30
Rank 2: Reputation +4%, Weapon Damage +5%
Rank 3: Reputation +4%, Weight Capacity +40

Rank 4a: Weapon Damage +5%, Weapon Stability +20% (Named "Damage and Stability")
Rank 4b: Power Damage +10%, Power Duration +25% (Named "Damage and Duration")

Rank 5a: Squadmate Weapon Damage +20%
Rank 5b: Weight Capacity +50

Rank 6a: Weapon Accuracy +20%, Weapon Stability +25%, Damage Reduction +25% (Shock Trooper)
Rank 6b: Weapon Damage +10%, Ammo Power Damage +40%, Storm speed +15% (Commando)

This would be a good passive tree. I'm not really sure about the "Ammo power damage" multiplier on the commando evolution. Perhaps an increase in the overall effectiveness of ammo powers, including the duration/debuff of cryo and the additional capacity evolution offered at rank 5 ? I think soldiers, being reliant on weapons for 90% of their damage, should be able to achieve a higher maximum capacity then other classes.

[RA RA XD]

Tach Prime wrote...

Another suggestion would be to leave duration the same but move 6a to 4a, with the same grayed out option as above.
...
Redesign 6a to fire two powers while cloak eliminating the cooldown of the first power if 4a is chosen or just the one power if 4a isn't selected.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would that not allow an infiltrator to fire off two powers, in rapid succession, on tactical cloaks cooldown, without being detected ? I love the infiltrator more than most, but I think you may need to consider the balancing behind that a little more carefully. 

I think we can all agree, however, that the bonus power evolution of TC should only apply to offensive powers (i.e. not marksman), much like the similar evolution for AR.

[Tach Prime]

Agreed but in my example tac cloak would not be giving a damage boost to the used powers, and the second power cast should give the cooldown of said power not overidden by tacs minimum cooldown.

[capn233]

Tactical Cloak

Rank 1
-Recharge Speed 12s
-Duration 8s
-Weapon Damage Bonus 40%

Rank 2
-Increase Recharge Speed by 25%

Rank 3
-Increase Duration by 30% (10.4s)

Rank 4
Evolution 1 - Power Use - Allow Tactical Cloak to be broken by an offensive power
Evolution 2 - Weapon Damage - Increase weapon damage bonus by 40%

Rank 5
Evolution 3 - Recharge Speed - Increase Recharge Speed by 30%
Evolution 4 - Melee Damage - Tactical Cloak now boosts melee damage 50%

Rank 6
Evolution 5 - Assassinate - Sniper Rifle Damage + 25%, Ammo Power Damage +40%
Evolution 6 - Stealth - Cloak always runs for full duration

Change to mechanics:
Damage bonus - there is no base general damage bonus.  So there is no base bonus damage to melee or powers
Damage duration - weapon damage bonus damage lasts 1 second starting from when a weapon is fired, or after broken by a power if Evolution 1 is taken.
Decloak - base cloak only breaks if weapon is fired, an enemy is meleed, or duration expires.  Exception if Evolution 1 is taken.  Also maybe be manually deactivated by pressing the power key again.
Minimum cooldown - Changed to 5 seconds.  It only applies if cloak is manually deactivated, not if broken by weapon, power use, or duration expiring.
Power Use - as above, cloak by default locks out power use while it is running.  Taking this evolution allows you to break cloak with an offensive power.  This distinction is key... you would not be able to run Marksman or use a shield boost power under cloak.
Melee Damage - This grants a bonus to melee damage under Tactical Cloak.  It applies to a single melee.
Assassinate - The point of this is to make it more likely to bypass shieldgate with more of the single shot weapons by boosting ammo power damage.  It does not break the bonus time, so weak rapid fire SR's do get some benefit
Stealth - The idea is that this replaces bonus power and so you could take Evolution 1 in combination with this and cast 1 power while hidden.  The difference is it would allow you to fire weapons as well, although you would only get the same 1s damage bonus.  Would it be overpowered?  The AI can track you while cloaked, so not necessarily.  You can still get hit and you would not regen shields.  Which is somewhat important since if you take this evolution you have to wait the duration to regen the shields...

Modifié par capn233, 25 mars 2013 - 05:30 .

[Ledgend1221]

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a soldier be able to achieve the highest DPS in SP due to Inferno ammo and AR?

[Athenau]

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a soldier be able to achieve the highest DPS in SP due to Inferno ammo and AR?

I think #1 is an infiltrator stacking cloak + marksman, and #2 is the soldier abusing inferno ammo.

Both feel dumb and gimmicky though.