116 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Yeah, it's tough. Now Zevran was hard for me to get past, he's anything but saintly, but I kept him in an effort to get more information from him. After all, I didn't know he'd spill everything straight up. I suspected him of all kinds of dark motives. But I talked to him to learn more. And eventually you learn all kinds of things that shed a new light on him.

I know why Loghain is the way he is, but nothing I know of him excuses his behaviour in MY eyes (I don't wish to debate whether others feel differently, that's their opinion, and they're entitled to it). All I can say is how I (as a person) feel, and how each of my characters so far (I roleplay them) has felt.

I don't roll evil characters, because I've learned over the years that I simply don't have fun playing as them. I am unable to enter into their worldview - nor do I really wish to be able to. I don't have to be a complete goody two shoes - in DnD jargon, I prefer to be chaotic good, but anything from neutral good to chaotic neutral is fine. Lawful good is just too rigid - and evil isn't fun for me.

DAO is a whole 'nother ball of wax though. Despite it being a game, the ethical and moral choices have real emotional clout (for me) - and so do political, economic, and other decisions or choices for that matter.

I'm pretty much the same. Because of the decision fallout, I find myself contemplating doing thigs that I normally wouldn't do. For example, we know that dragons almost became extinct, and yet we have the choice as to slay the high dragon that really isn't doing any harm, but if we don't, there will be all kinds of fighting with it that ends up destroying the mountain top and probably killing a lot of people. Personally, I think the Guardian took the ashes somewhere else when that happened, but we don't know. I told Genetivi that it was his fault if anything happened, but I still can't decide if I should do something about it.

And what about Flemeth? She saved are butts and now I should go kill her? Sketchy.... And yet, what if Morrigan is right? Most games make these choices clear.

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

Because of the decision fallout, I find myself contemplating doing thigs that I normally wouldn't do. For example, we know that dragons almost became extinct, and yet we have the choice as to slay the high dragon that really isn't doing any harm, but if we don't, there will be all kinds of fighting with it that ends up destroying the mountain top and probably killing a lot of people. Personally, I think the Guardian took the ashes somewhere else when that happened, but we don't know. I told Genetivi that it was his fault if anything happened, but I still can't decide if I should do something about it.

And what about Flemeth? She saved are butts and now I should go kill her? Sketchy.... And yet, what if Morrigan is right? Most games make these choices clear.

I haven't killed the high dragon yet, despite the loot. I let Genitivi tell people - because my characters don't have a crystal ball and don't know what will happen in the future. I try not to metagame - at least to the extent that I make my choices based on what that character knows at the time. If 'I' not 'they' know something and it's in character for me to make the choice that will get me the result I want - that's fine. But if it's out of character, or based on something that the character cannot know - not fine.

Flemeth. I've done both, killed her and not. I see that one as very grey indeed. Neither she nor Morrigan are clearly innocent, we have only Morrigan's testimony and no actual facts to guide us, so my characters (depending on their 'alignment', their origin, and my 'picture' of them) are able to make different choices.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 janvier 2010 - 07:20 .

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Because of the decision fallout, I find myself contemplating doing thigs that I normally wouldn't do. For example, we know that dragons almost became extinct, and yet we have the choice as to slay the high dragon that really isn't doing any harm, but if we don't, there will be all kinds of fighting with it that ends up destroying the mountain top and probably killing a lot of people. Personally, I think the Guardian took the ashes somewhere else when that happened, but we don't know. I told Genetivi that it was his fault if anything happened, but I still can't decide if I should do something about it.

And what about Flemeth? She saved are butts and now I should go kill her? Sketchy.... And yet, what if Morrigan is right? Most games make these choices clear.

I haven't killed the high dragon yet, despite the loot. I let Genitivi tell people - because my characters don't have a crystal ball and don't know what will happen in the future. I try not to metagame - at least to the extent that I make my choices based on what that character knows at the time. If 'I' not 'they' know something and it's in character for me to make the choice that will get me the result I want - that's fine. But if it's out of character, or based on something that the character cannot know - not fine.

Flemeth. I've done both, killed her and not. I see that one as very grey indeed. Neither she nor Morrigan are clearly innocent, we have only Morrigan's testimony and no actual facts to guide us, so my characters (depending on their 'alignment', their origin, and my 'picture' of them) are able to make different choices.

Heh, I told him not to spread word about the ashes just because it just seemed like a bad idea. Then Alistair expressed my view nicely. "I hope that urn is self-replenishing."

[SusanStoHelit]

Lmao

The Eternal Urn of Andraste's Ashes?

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 janvier 2010 - 07:27 .

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Lmao

The Eternal Urn of Andraste's Ashes?

 They better hope so, or there's going to be a problem not too far down the road....

[asaiasai]

Nobody Important wrote...

I just harden Alistair and make him marry Anora than spare Loghain. Everybody wins.

Yepper that is the solution i have used for most of my 7 completed games now. I get rid of the whiner, storm the castle with a real warrior and let Loghain take the fall, i get to walk away, Eamon gets his royal line to possibly advance, Fereldin gets a strong and capiable ruler in Anora, but most importantly i get rid of the whiner.

Asai

[SusanStoHelit]

Is it that people just can't read - or just don't read?



No character hate stuff in this thread.

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Is it that people just can't read - or just don't read?

No character hate stuff in this thread.

Thanks! I was just coming by to say that, but you got there first. Appreciated.

Let's please keep the discussion non-inflammatory.

[Whisa]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Because of the decision fallout, I find myself contemplating doing thigs that I normally wouldn't do. For example, we know that dragons almost became extinct, and yet we have the choice as to slay the high dragon that really isn't doing any harm, but if we don't, there will be all kinds of fighting with it that ends up destroying the mountain top and probably killing a lot of people. Personally, I think the Guardian took the ashes somewhere else when that happened, but we don't know. I told Genetivi that it was his fault if anything happened, but I still can't decide if I should do something about it.

And what about Flemeth? She saved are butts and now I should go kill her? Sketchy.... And yet, what if Morrigan is right? Most games make these choices clear.

I haven't killed the high dragon yet, despite the loot. I let Genitivi tell people - because my characters don't have a crystal ball and don't know what will happen in the future. I try not to metagame - at least to the extent that I make my choices based on what that character knows at the time. If 'I' not 'they' know something and it's in character for me to make the choice that will get me the result I want - that's fine. But if it's out of character, or based on something that the character cannot know - not fine..

My characters kill the dragon because dragons are, historically, prone to going on a rampage and destroying their portion of the world.  Being as the current age was named because a dragon went mad in the same area, my characters can only assume it was the same one/ will do the same soon.

Dragon must die!

My RPG reason for it that doesn't include metagaming, anyway ^^;

[SusanStoHelit]

Whisa wrote...

My characters kill the dragon because dragons are, historically, prone to going on a rampage and destroying their portion of the world.  Being as the current age was named because a dragon went mad in the same area, my characters can only assume it was the same one/ will do the same soon.

Dragon must die!

My RPG reason for it that doesn't include metagaming, anyway ^^;

That's fine. If it works for you, that's great and I would never criticise. As long as I'm afforded the same courtesy.

If the dragon attacked me (as the ones in the cavern do) then it's no problem. Self defence. But I don't find dragons as big a problem as some others. Like sparing Loghain. Or putting Anora on the throne. And so on.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 janvier 2010 - 07:51 .

[errant_knight]

Whisa wrote...

My characters kill the dragon because dragons are, historically, prone to going on a rampage and destroying their portion of the world.  Being as the current age was named because a dragon went mad in the same area, my characters can only assume it was the same one/ will do the same soon.

Dragon must die!

My RPG reason for it that doesn't include metagaming, anyway ^^;

 I don't know why I find that funny, but I do. Heh... Back to the topic. That's a valid point. Dragons don't have a real good track record in Fereldan, destructionwise. Still, you're killing it because of what it might do, and it hasn't destroyed anything to that point.... They have to live somewhere, and overall, this is a nice remote location.

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 janvier 2010 - 07:56 .

[jennamarae]

errant_knight wrote...

It occured to me that I could do it by creating a character that believed what Riordan said and went with it, then continued to make choices that were impossible to live with until, at the end, he/she was glad to die. Suicidal to the point of not caring that they were leaving Fereldan in the hands of Loghain and Anora. Doable. but bleak. Very bleak.

That was pretty much what I did for my play through where I spared him. The character did what she thought she had to that would get her the help she needed to end the blight whether she liked it or not. Started as a human noble and lost everything and everyone she'd ever cared about besides her dog and had a rather miserable existance, but did it because her father told her she had to do her duty. So she did. Decided in the end that Ferelden meant more than her and Alistair's relationship so she talked him into marrying Anora and spared Loghain because that was what was best for the country.

[Whisa]

@ Susan
No problem there I just felt like throwing my reasoning into the mix. I'm not big on peaceful characters in any case *cough* so I should play one that lets things live sometime and that could be a good reasoning.. hm..

loghain, i can't see sparing. I'm going to on my dwarf I think because she's doing the completely evil things of this run and would find him useful to lead armies she's really not looking to lead (dust town never leaves you!) while Alistair.. isn't. So much.


@Errant Knight
Ha, it kinda is. But for them, it rings true xD

My characters so far have been somewhat blood-thirsty or very duty driven. In the case of my human noble, she wasn't about to let something that was *going* to go out and kill a large amount of people chill until it did. Especially since she'd have a decent grasp of history and it's noted through-out that high dragons go on a rampage as part of their normal cycle. She's there, it's there, and she's not going to let it go until it kills someone the way her family was killed

Modifié par Whisa, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:00 .

[errant_knight]

jennamarae wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

It occured to me that I could do it by creating a character that believed what Riordan said and went with it, then continued to make choices that were impossible to live with until, at the end, he/she was glad to die. Suicidal to the point of not caring that they were leaving Fereldan in the hands of Loghain and Anora. Doable. but bleak. Very bleak.

That was pretty much what I did for my play through where I spared him. The character did what she thought she had to that would get her the help she needed to end the blight whether she liked it or not. Started as a human noble and lost everything and everyone she'd ever cared about besides her dog and had a rather miserable existance, but did it because her father told her she had to do her duty. So she did. Decided in the end that Ferelden meant more than her and Alistair's relationship so she talked him into marrying Anora and spared Loghain because that was what was best for the country.

 And did you enjoy that playthrough, ot was it pretty much grim and joyless?

[Lotion Soronarr]

lisakover wrote...

Loghain isn't evil he just hates the Orlesians above all else and has some mental issues I mean;

1. They took his Mabari and had her raped by Orlesian Poodles then brought her back half dead.
2. They raped his Mother infront of him.
3. They killed his father.
4. He fought a war against them.

Loghain is a hero without a doubt and even though he has faltered he still deserves to redeem himself.

He is evil. That's not debatable.

Killing and sacrificing innocents at masse is the very definition of evil. Especially when there are other ways to do it. Who cares what you're supposedly doing it for! A well-intentioned extremist is still an evil bastard, if he's willing to torture and kill innocents.

I never actaully spared Loghian. I watched his lines and convos on you-tube to see what I was missing. It does add to the depth of the character, but changes nothing in the long run. He's still a bastard, he's stil lcrazy and he still deserves to see his name villified for all eternity.

That said, if you want to see what's Loghian like, then go for it. Make sure you harden Alistair tough AND arrange his marriage with Anora.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:02 .

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

  And did you enjoy that playthrough, ot was it pretty much grim and joyless?

This.

[errant_knight]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

lisakover wrote...

Loghain isn't evil he just hates the Orlesians above all else and has some mental issues I mean;

1. They took his Mabari and had her raped by Orlesian Poodles then brought her back half dead.
2. They raped his Mother infront of him.
3. They killed his father.
4. He fought a war against them.

Loghain is a hero without a doubt and even though he has faltered he still deserves to redeem himself.

He is evil. That's not debatable.

Killing and sacrificing innocents at masse is the very definition of evil. Especially when there are other ways to do it. Who cares what you're supposedly doing it for! A well-intentioned extremist is still an evil bastard, if he's willing to torture and kill innocents.

I never actaully spared Loghian. I watched his lines and convos on you-tube to see what I was missing. It does add to the depth of the character, but changes nothing in the long run. He's still a bastard, he's stil lcrazy and he still deserves to see his name villified for all eternity.

That said, if you want to see what's Loghian like, then go for it. Make sure you harden Alistair tough AND arrange his marriage with Anora.

Let's not debate the nature of good and evil here. I didn't mention that to the poster you quoted because we seemed to have moved on. There are lots of threads for discussing why people dislike characters, so here the discussion is more about how to playthrough options that seem to be difficult choices to fathom, personally. I know how to play the character in terms of game mechanics. That's not the issue.

[SusanStoHelit]

Whisa wrote...

loghain, i can't see sparing. I'm going to on my dwarf I think because she's doing the completely evil things of this run and would find him useful to lead armies she's really not looking to lead (dust town never leaves you!) while Alistair.. isn't. So much.

Now that makes sense. I don't think I can do it, but it makes absolute role playing sense.

My characters so far have been somewhat blood-thirsty or very duty driven. In the case of my human noble, she wasn't about to let something that was *going* to go out and kill a large amount of people chill until it did. Especially since she'd have a decent grasp of history and it's noted through-out that high dragons go on a rampage as part of their normal cycle. She's there, it's there, and she's not going to let it go until it kills someone the way her family was killed

And so does this, eminently so.

[Whisa]

SusanStoHelit wrote...


Now that makes sense. I don't think I can do it, but it makes absolute role playing sense.

I'm stuck on the werewolves..  siding with them.  God help me, I love elves too much to kill them all.  Go dwarf..  go..  be mean to the poor elves... D:

I made it slightly better by making everyone in camp hate me though..  must ruin Cammen's life to make it complete..

It's funny that I can side with Branka no real problem, but kill elves? Can't do it.  Funny in a scary what-is-wrong-with-me kind of way, of course

[errant_knight]

Whisa wrote...

I'm stuck on the werewolves..  siding with them.  God help me, I love elves too much to kill them all.  Go dwarf..  go..  be mean to the poor elves... D:

I made it slightly better by making everyone in camp hate me though..  must ruin Cammen's life to make it complete..

It's funny that I can side with Branka no real problem, but kill elves? Can't do it.  Funny in a scary what-is-wrong-with-me kind of way, of course

I always go the middle route there.... And Branka? That is scary. She's...well, brrrrr....

Okay, off to sleep.... Everyone play nice, now! I'm going to be sorely disappointed if I get up tomorrow and find a thread full of virtual eye-gouging and character smackdowns.

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:17 .

[jennamarae]

errant_knight wrote...

And did you enjoy that playthrough, ot was it pretty much grim and joyless?

I did actually. My characters up to that point had either been the goody-two-shoes type, or the me-me-me type who only did what benefitted them. Doing a run through with one who did things for something larger than herself was rather refreshing. Some of the decisions were the same ones, but they had different motivations behind them. She was the first to side with the Templars instead of the mages because abominations running loose would definitely be bad for Ferelden. It gave me a different perspective while playing and I enjoyed it.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

errant_knight wrote...

I was thinking that I probably wouldn't be able to do this at all, given how I feel about Loghain, and the bad taste that just making Anora Queen, even when killing Loghain, left in my mouth. I just couldn't see being able to make a character that could ignore what he did, and betray Alistair and Eamon, that I could stand to live in for 100 hours.

It occured to me that I could do it by creating a character that believed what Riordan said and went with it, then continued to make choices that were impossible to live with until, at the end, he/she was glad to die. Suicidal to the point of not caring that they were leaving Fereldan in the hands of Loghain and Anora. Doable. but bleak. Very bleak.

I played through the Landmeet a few times, trying to see all the different outcomes to the game rather than deciding on 'this is the ending for this character' kinda thing. Originally I supported Alistair for king all the way, so when Anora betrayed me at the Landsmeet it was pretty easy to smack her and her dad down. Plus I let Alistair prove himself as the future king by being the one to duel Loghain, so initially I never saw the choice. XD (Then the noble fool dumps me, sacrifices himself, and I swear to look for a happier ending. >.<)

Anyhoo, sparing Loghain...I actually started writing a fanfiction based on this recently, exploring the reasons why you'd pick Loghain over Alistair. A choice made ten times harsher if you were romancing the guy. All I can say is...there are many good and noble reasons for sparing Loghain, even personal reasons (depending on your character). And Alistair, although good and noble himself...is not perfect.

Sparing Loghain doesn't necessarily constitute betraying Alistair, even if he takes it as such. Some might call it tough love. Some might call it smacking him upside the back of the head for being a child.

My only beef is that you couldn't chase after the guy afterwards (if he wasn't becoming king) and try to talk him down. Hence aforementioned fanfiction...

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:04 .

[SusanStoHelit]

jennamarae wrote...

I did actually. My characters up to that point had either been the goody-two-shoes type, or the me-me-me type who only did what benefitted them. Doing a run through with one who did things for something larger than herself was rather refreshing. Some of the decisions were the same ones, but they had different motivations behind them. She was the first to side with the Templars instead of the mages because abominations running loose would definitely be bad for Ferelden. It gave me a different perspective while playing and I enjoyed it.

Now that is interesting. So it wasn't an 'evil' run? Where you could make 'good' choices that were of benefit to Ferelden or at least of no harm to Ferelden, did you do so?

Now that sounds ruthless, to me, but not evil, and much more 'doable' from my perspective. I do have some characters who lean that way anway - choose Bhelen cause he seems 'take charge and proactive' even knowing or suspecting what an bastard he is.

Branka though? No. She's the only character in the entire game who's as bad as Loghain. Murdering people is bad enough, but deliberately giving them over/allowing them to be taken and turned into Broodmothers? So she can have more guinea pigs? No way!

I couldn't roleplay that if someone offered me buckets of money to do it.

[asaiasai]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Is it that people just can't read - or just don't read?

No character hate stuff in this thread.

Apparently you can not read, the whole point of the OP is thier distaste for having to invest 100 hours of game play in a character who would make the decision to spare Loghain. This in itself is because of thier implied hate for Loghain and is the reason for thier particular quandry. They felt so strongly about this that they needed to make a post. The person who posted about Dick Cheney was somewhat out of line but as for the rest none are any more or less a hate thread than the OP. The only problem i can see with the posts is that they are directed at, and deservedy so, towards the fangirl selection of the year. I thought this was a discussion thread on how to ease the pain of the OP when/if they spare Loghain,  but i guess i am incorrect. The only replies that will have merit are those who are measured by the degree to which they agree with yours.

Asai

[jennamarae]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Now that is interesting. So it wasn't an 'evil' run? Where you could make 'good' choices that were of benefit to Ferelden or at least of no harm to Ferelden, did you do so?

Nope, not an evil one just one where she made decisions based on what she thought was best for the country as a whole as opposed to what was best solely for the people in front of her at the moment. She sided with the templars, as I said, because she couldn't risk loosing abominations on unsuspecting and innocent people. She choose Bhelen because he seemed to be the best option for Orzammar though she despised the man and was horrified when he called for Harrowmont's execution. Saved both Connor and Isolde because an Arl upset over the loss of family wouldn't do the country any good, though what she really wanted to do was just kill Connor and be done with it. Destroyed the Anvil because she was horrified that they would actually kill people just to make more golems and don't even get her started on Branka.

She refused to kill Witherfang once she found out the whole mess got started by Zathrian and contemplated killing the elves but decided only he was at fault and she shouldn't punish them all for his mistake. And she accepted Loghain as a warden because the more of them there were, the better the chances to end the blight. She really, really hated that decision and would rather have cut his head off herself with a spoon than see him as a Grey Warden. She and Alistair had been in a relationship for a while by that point, but the country had to come before her own selfish desires and he was going to marry Anora anyway so it's not like they had a future she could look forward to. Then when Morrigan made her offer she couldn't accept for fear that the results of that decision would harm Ferelden in the future thus negating all her efforts and pain. The thought that everything she'd done and everything she'd suffered through was for nothing was completely unacceptable. When it came time to kill the archdemon she was of the opinion that Ferelden was better off with a general who knew what he was doing than a Teryn's daughter who had been winging it for over a year, so she took the final blow.

So no, not evil in the least. And many of the same decisions my other characters made, but her reasoning was vastly different. There were a few demons she came across who had been loose and not caused any damage so far that she let continue on their way. Wondered if it was the right decision afterwards, but by then it was too late to change her mind. She let the high dragon live because it wasn't close enough to anyone to cause any real harm and it wasn't trying eat her. Had it tried, she'd have killed it. But it left her alone, so she did the same.

I've rambled a bit, but there you have it. lol