116 réponses à ce sujet

[SusanStoHelit]

asaiasai wrote...

Apparently you can not read, the whole point of the OP is thier distaste for having to invest 100 hours of game play in a character who would make the decision to spare Loghain. This in itself is because of thier implied hate for Loghain and is the reason for thier particular quandry. They felt so strongly about this that they needed to make a post. The person who posted about Dick Cheney was somewhat out of line but as for the rest none are any more or less a hate thread than the OP. The only problem i can see with the posts is that they are directed at, and deservedy so, towards the fangirl selection of the year. I thought this was a discussion thread on how to ease the pain of the OP when/if they spare Loghain,  but i guess i am incorrect. The only replies that will have merit are those who are measured by the degree to which they agree with yours.

Asai

Not really, I don't care if you agree with me or not. If you check back , it was the OP who asked we not bring our 'i hate this character' into it. And it was your references to Alistair (irrelevant) to which i referred. And the OP then came back agreeing with me.

The thread isn't so much about how much we hate Loghain (though some of us do) or how to make us like him or agree he's a good guy (we won't). But, is there a way to roleplay it that can still be enjoyable for us (even if we do loathe him and all his works). We don't want to be converted. We'd like to explore all the opportunities available, if that could be enjoyable for us. But not otherwise.

I'm probably not explaining well, and if so I'm sorry. Enough said, I think.

Edit: and Lotion was also told much the same - and he/she DOES agree with us.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:48 .

[SusanStoHelit]

jennamarae wrote...

Nope, not an evil one just one where she made decisions based on what she thought was best for the country as a whole as opposed to what was best solely for the people in front of her at the moment. She sided with the templars, as I said, because she couldn't risk loosing abominations on unsuspecting and innocent people. She choose Bhelen because he seemed to be the best option for Orzammar though she despised the man and was horrified when he called for Harrowmont's execution. Saved both Connor and Isolde because an Arl upset over the loss of family wouldn't do the country any good, though what she really wanted to do was just kill Connor and be done with it. Destroyed the Anvil because she was horrified that they would actually kill people just to make more golems and don't even get her started on Branka.

She refused to kill Witherfang once she found out the whole mess got started by Zathrian and contemplated killing the elves but decided only he was at fault and she shouldn't punish them all for his mistake. And she accepted Loghain as a warden because the more of them there were, the better the chances to end the blight. She really, really hated that decision and would rather have cut his head off herself with a spoon than see him as a Grey Warden. She and Alistair had been in a relationship for a while by that point, but the country had to come before her own selfish desires and he was going to marry Anora anyway so it's not like they had a future she could look forward to. Then when Morrigan made her offer she couldn't accept for fear that the results of that decision would harm Ferelden in the future thus negating all her efforts and pain. The thought that everything she'd done and everything she'd suffered through was for nothing was completely unacceptable. When it came time to kill the archdemon she was of the opinion that Ferelden was better off with a general who knew what he was doing than a Teryn's daughter who had been winging it for over a year, so she took the final blow.

So no, not evil in the least. And many of the same decisions my other characters made, but her reasoning was vastly different. There were a few demons she came across who had been loose and not caused any damage so far that she let continue on their way. Wondered if it was the right decision afterwards, but by then it was too late to change her mind. She let the high dragon live because it wasn't close enough to anyone to cause any real harm and it wasn't trying eat her. Had it tried, she'd have killed it. But it left her alone, so she did the same.

I've rambled a bit, but there you have it. lol

Now this is fascinating, and seems to me might be actually doable. I appreciate it, rambling or not. It elucidates several things I hadn't considered, or hadn't considered deeply enough. And it's given me much to think on for characters of the future.

[Xandurpein]

I choose to spare Loghain on my first play, and that had nothing to do with playing evil. I played a human noble who was spoon fed with knightly virtues and duties as a kid. I played a lot like jennamarae describes things above.



The decision at the Landsmeet was hard, but what settled it for me during the Landsmeet, was that I saw it all as a duel. The rules of the duel were clear. He yielded and so the duel was over. I just couldn't bring myself to chop his head off when he had yielded. If I play some other beginning I can kill Loghain, but as human noble I have a hard time killing someone who yields to me. I always let the female Bloodmage in the tower live for example.



I suppose that this comes intuitively to me, as I am opposed to capital punishment in real life. (I do hope I can write that without derailing the thread. If you feel differently, I'm fine with it)

[Whisa]

Xandurpein wrote...

I choose to spare Loghain on my first play, and that had nothing to do with playing evil. I played a human noble who was spoon fed with knightly virtues and duties as a kid. I played a lot like jennamarae describes things above.

The decision at the Landsmeet was hard, but what settled it for me during the Landsmeet, was that I saw it all as a duel. The rules of the duel were clear. He yielded and so the duel was over. I just couldn't bring myself to chop his head off when he had yielded. If I play some other beginning I can kill Loghain, but as human noble I have a hard time killing someone who yields to me. I always let the female Bloodmage in the tower live for example.

I had exactly the opposite as a noble.

This guy betrayed everything it was to BE noble - left his king, destroyed his country, and broke faith with those he depended on.  He does not deserve his title and after sending armies after anyone and anything that went against him, he's going to die before more people are inspired to follow in his footsteps.

[SusanStoHelit]

Xandurpein wrote...

I choose to spare Loghain on my first play, and that had nothing to do with playing evil. I played a human noble who was spoon fed with knightly virtues and duties as a kid. I played a lot like jennamarae describes things above.

The decision at the Landsmeet was hard, but what settled it for me during the Landsmeet, was that I saw it all as a duel. The rules of the duel were clear. He yielded and so the duel was over. I just couldn't bring myself to chop his head off when he had yielded. If I play some other beginning I can kill Loghain, but as human noble I have a hard time killing someone who yields to me. I always let the female Bloodmage in the tower live for example.

I suppose that this comes intuitively to me, as I am opposed to capital punishment in real life. (I do hope I can write that without derailing the thread. If you feel differently, I'm fine with it)

Nope, that makes sense too. The discussion was not of whether we hated characters (though we might) but of how do we rationalise or explain the decisions our characters make. And can we do this to the extent that actions we would generally find repugnant are still playable/enjoyable in roleplaying our characters.

Eek, it's actually quite difficult to put it into words. Or it is for me - I'm not a good writer.

[SusanStoHelit]

Whisa wrote...

I had exactly the opposite as a noble.

This guy betrayed everything it was to BE noble - left his king, destroyed his country, and broke faith with those he depended on.  He does not deserve his title and after sending armies after anyone and anything that went against him, he's going to die before more people are inspired to follow in his footsteps.

Now this is also enlightening. Two characters, two people able to come up with completely different rationales, both of which work (for them, even if not for anyone else). I'd certainly agree with Whisa on this one personally, but that's not the point.

[jennamarae]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Now this is fascinating, and seems to me might be actually doable. I appreciate it, rambling or not. It elucidates several things I hadn't considered, or hadn't considered deeply enough. And it's given me much to think on for characters of the future.

I'm glad my rambling is of use to someone then!  

That character has been the only one able to justify sparing Loghain so far from a RP stand-point.

[Whisa]

More people should post their character's rationalization on things *nodnod*

Helped me get through a couple difficult decisions.  Some are easy, based on initial dialogue, but some...  arg.  Seeing how other "people" in the world see it helps

[nos_astra]

As a human noble female romancing Al I can't spare Loghain - and don't have to make a decision. Alistair duels him. That saves me roleplaying why I would or wouldn't spare Loghain. I read so many arguments (pro and con) that my head's about to explode.

What Xandurpein says makes sense - but then again who'll refuse Alistair his revenge if he speaks up in front of the landsmeet and demand it? I have a hard time picturing that a friend of him (or his love) would do that. Even if you wouldn't decide Loghain's execution on your own account because there are reasons to spare him, you may still decide that you can let Alistair have it his way because there are reasons to justify that (especially for yourself).

Modifié par klarabella, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:09 .

[Xandurpein]

I also think my Human Noble got out of the Dead Trenches as a different person. Before Dead Trenches killing Howe was everything to him, but seeing the true nature of the Darkspawn with Broodmother and everything so close, personal vengeance on Howe just didn't matter that much anymore. Killing Howe was mostly just business, even though I had sworn revenge on him at the beginning.



Allowing Loghain to yield, was a way to hang on to some shred of his knightly vows. Even if Loghain had betrayed his, I wouldn't let him drag my character down to his level.

[Whisa]

Xandurpein wrote...

I also think my Human Noble got out of the Dead Trenches as a different person. Before Dead Trenches killing Howe was everything to him, but seeing the true nature of the Darkspawn with Broodmother and everything so close, personal vengeance on Howe just didn't matter that much anymore. Killing Howe was mostly just business, even though I had sworn revenge on him at the beginning.

Allowing Loghain to yield, was a way to hang on to some shred of his knightly vows. Even if Loghain had betrayed his, I wouldn't let him drag my character down to his level.

That makes a lot of sense.  Sparing him to prove (if I understand correctly) you see the blight as the big threat, not Loghain's destruction, if only to yourself.  Very interesting.

I think the Deep Roads are a major point in a lot of character's development.  Shame you can't go there early in the game, though..  tried that recently and was just getting stomped.   Protip: Orzammar right after lothering is bad news @_@

I'm pretty sure every female I take down there has a way to suicide before the darkspawn get her now, though.  Just in case..  *shiver*

[nos_astra]

@ Xandurpein
I enjoy having my character dragged down to this level. Makes her human (and makes Alistair human).
But of course I see that other characters (good characters) would decide your way. Interesting view.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:15 .

[Kavva]

Im just curious what Loghain will say in Return to Ostagar - cant wait to hear it

[Whisa]

Kavva wrote...

Im just curious what Loghain will say in Return to Ostagar - cant wait to hear it

My god I hadn't even thought of delaying it until I had Loghain, or going to an epilogue save.

Now I can't wait for that, either.  RtO, stop tempting me, be playable T_T

[jsachun]

To get on Queen Anora's good side.

[Xandurpein]

@Klarabella

The way things played for my Human noble I just could not let Alistair have his will. I'll explain just to show you what happened and how I rationalized it. Maybe you see things differently playing male here though.

After freeing Anora I was exploring different options talking to Alistair and Anora. I sort of figured that the game set it up so I should try and make Alistair marry Anora, but he seemed so unenthusiastic that I didn't have the heart to convince him. Then I stumbled upon the option to marry Anora myself. By that time I had decided to give up om Morrigan and try to romance Leliana instead, but somehow failed it or glitched so technically I was free. I decided to go with marrying Anora myself, partly because I thought Alistair would be relieved, partly because I wanted to see what became of it. I rationalized it that I was probably better than Alistair for her.

Then came Landsmeet, I didn't even consider any champion. I was a noble and I fought my own duels. Loghain yielded and I decided after some agonizing to go with Riordans suggestion. Alistair got very upset, but I tried to talk to him.

In this scenario I got one chance only to cave in to Alistair's demands, before he suddenly out of the blue demands that I should make him King. I was stunned. So far he hadn't even want to hear about it. From then on I didn't even get a chance to change my mind about Loghain, it was only about if I was going to make Anora or him ruler. I couldn't for the life of me make myself decide to just toss my word to the Queen out the window because Alistair suddenly wanted me to make him King so he could kill Loghain. It seemed totally irresponsible.

I realize after several plays, that this series events gives the worst possible result for Alistair himself and how he behaves, and I can very well understand how others who play differently feel otherwise, and I have played games where Alistair and I are best friends and really agonize over which of us should kill the Archdemon, but my character lost all respect for Alistair in that play.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 11 janvier 2010 - 11:23 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

One scenario I have which kind of fits for two of my characters is that they believe in taking the higher ground and if possible would rather try solving issues with diplomacy rather than violence. So that is their excuse for sparing Loghain.



Another character figures if she spares Loghain and puts Alistair on the throne after the whole blight thing has been resolved it might leave ferelden in a bad state with a pairing that will be volatile and allow her to do what the Archdemon failed to do



One of my other characters is similar to Ser Cauthrien and idolises and aspires to be like Loghain and refuses to believe he had any hand in it and that it was all Rendon Howe's fault.



One of my mages has a hatred of Orlesians akin to Loghain's and thus understands his paranoia and thinks Alistair is a whiny baby whom shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the throne, having said that she is also on a serious power corrupted trip and wants to watch Ferelden burn... but at her doing not the Archdemon, but that is another story hehe



Another of my characters is a cocky, arrogant, rogue whom will do anything to please the ladies, so if Anora wants her dad to be allowed to live she'll get her wish, specially as the character wants to be her Prince-Consort

[Rhinna]

lisakover wrote...

So would Duncan if it meant defeating the Darkspawn.

 No he wouldn't...read "The Calling"

[Rhinna]

Whisa wrote...

I had exactly the opposite as a noble.

This guy betrayed everything it was to BE noble - left his king, destroyed his country, and broke faith with those he depended on.  He does not deserve his title and after sending armies after anyone and anything that went against him, he's going to die before more people are inspired to follow in his footsteps.

I think Alastair and Loghain have more in common than you think - Loghain was already a noble prior to where the game starts - He was Cailan's right hand man, AND Maric had given him the arlship of Gwaren (if there is such a word as "arlship")

However, both of them let their passion cloud their judgment - Loghain betrayed his king, the kid he used to BABYSIT while Maric went gallivanting all over the country, and put his country into a civil war because of his hatred for the Orlesians.  He could not let go of what happened when he was a child.
Alastair was willing to leave the Grey Wardens and NOT do what's best for Ferelden (be King and marry Anora - after all, that would have been a good alliance - Maric and Rowan did the same) all because of his hatred for Loghain who, in his eyes killed his beloved Duncan.

If you haven't read the books, without giving too much of a spoiler, let's just say there is more to Duncan and Alastair's relationship than meets the eye...

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

lisakover wrote...

Loghain isn't evil he just hates the Orlesians above all else and has some mental issues I mean;

1. They took his Mabari and had her raped by Orlesian Poodles then brought her back half dead.
2. They raped his Mother infront of him.
3. They killed his father.
4. He fought a war against them.

Loghain is a hero without a doubt and even though he has faltered he still deserves to redeem himself.

He is evil. That's not debatable.

Killing and sacrificing innocents at masse is the very definition of evil. Especially when there are other ways to do it. Who cares what you're supposedly doing it for! A well-intentioned extremist is still an evil bastard, if he's willing to torture and kill innocents.

I never actaully spared Loghian. I watched his lines and convos on you-tube to see what I was missing. It does add to the depth of the character, but changes nothing in the long run. He's still a bastard, he's stil lcrazy and he still deserves to see his name villified for all eternity.

That said, if you want to see what's Loghian like, then go for it. Make sure you harden Alistair tough AND arrange his marriage with Anora.

I guess you didn't read this post from the OP

errant_knight wrote...

Okay. I started this to discuss an
idea I had, not to start another hate thread. If anyone would like to
discuss the idea that's dandy, otherwise I'll just request that the
thread be closed or deleted.

Seriously Lotion get lost, your pathetic BS isn't needed in this topic

[Whisa]

Rhinna wrote...

Whisa wrote...

I had exactly the opposite as a noble.

This guy betrayed everything it was to BE noble - left his king, destroyed his country, and broke faith with those he depended on.  He does not deserve his title and after sending armies after anyone and anything that went against him, he's going to die before more people are inspired to follow in his footsteps.

I think Alastair and Loghain have more in common than you think - Loghain was already a noble prior to where the game starts - He was Cailan's right hand man, AND Maric had given him the arlship of Gwaren (if there is such a word as "arlship")

However, both of them let their passion cloud their judgment - Loghain betrayed his king, the kid he used to BABYSIT while Maric went gallivanting all over the country, and put his country into a civil war because of his hatred for the Orlesians.  He could not let go of what happened when he was a child.
Alastair was willing to leave the Grey Wardens and NOT do what's best for Ferelden (be King and marry Anora - after all, that would have been a good alliance - Maric and Rowan did the same) all because of his hatred for Loghain who, in his eyes killed his beloved Duncan.

If you haven't read the books, without giving too much of a spoiler, let's just say there is more to Duncan and Alastair's relationship than meets the eye...

I haven't read the books, but I really need to get them..  I've read enough spoilers to *think* I know what you're talking about (parentage and promises?), but not be sure.

However, for my noble, she doesn't know Alistair will have a fit and storm off should she spare Loghain.  Sparing him isn't an option for her.

For me, however, yeah, Alistair doesn't impress me.  I semi-liked his character (god, the whining even in my first game got to me), but that also happened to be the first time I spared Loghain.   By accident.  Or maybe that was the second a couple days later.  Don't really remember.  Ah, well, point is, after that point whatever respect Alistair had managed to get plummeted, hit a rock, and smashed into a thousand tiny pieces.  Feed 'em both to the archdemon, I say.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I am always happy to make Anora Queen. She is a ruthless ****, so what? Ultimately, those are the best people for the job. And Alistair, unhardened, is a happy man for it. Thus, everyone wins.



I think I will spare Loghain during a dwarven noble playthrough, since it would fit that character better, in terms of cold pragmatism and lacking any real personal beef with Loghain. Rpwise, however, either my character lets Alistair fight him, or my character simply can't find a good enough reason to spare him. Riordan's suggestion isn't enough.

[Spuro]

RP-wise, I can't see myself playing a human noble or city elf warden to spare Loghain.

[ReubenLiew]

Give up my tank that I've been building up meticulously for the past 60 hours for a semi-useless self levelled up tank with no gear?

Yeaaahh... no.

[Xandurpein]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Give up my tank that I've been building up meticulously for the past 60 hours for a semi-useless self levelled up tank with no gear?
Yeaaahh... no.

LOL. I tank myself thank you very much;)