116 réponses à ce sujet

[ReubenLiew]

*shakes fist at Xandurpein* How dare you shoot holes in my logic!

[Xandurpein]

ReubenLiew wrote...

*shakes fist at Xandurpein* How dare you shoot holes in my logic!

Let's just call it one of those agree to disagree things

[Xandurpein]

Spuro wrote...

RP-wise, I can't see myself playing a human noble or city elf warden to spare Loghain.

It is so interesting to see how different people reason in the same situation and honestly try to be good. Playing as playing Human Noble is one of those that I have easiest to spare him with, as I described above.

I honestly think I would have let Alistair talk me into let him kill Loghain if he hadn't turned it into a "Alistair or Anora" choice instead of "Alistair or Loghain" choice, the way he did in my first play. But I drew the line at going back on my deal with Anora. If my word given to someone who was both my Queen and my bethrothed wasn't worth anything, who was I then?

[errant_knight]

asaiasai wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Is it that people just can't read - or just don't read?

No character hate stuff in this thread.

Apparently you can not read, the whole point of the OP is thier distaste for having to invest 100 hours of game play in a character who would make the decision to spare Loghain. This in itself is because of thier implied hate for Loghain and is the reason for thier particular quandry. They felt so strongly about this that they needed to make a post. The person who posted about Dick Cheney was somewhat out of line but as for the rest none are any more or less a hate thread than the OP. The only problem i can see with the posts is that they are directed at, and deservedy so, towards the fangirl selection of the year. I thought this was a discussion thread on how to ease the pain of the OP when/if they spare Loghain,  but i guess i am incorrect. The only replies that will have merit are those who are measured by the degree to which they agree with yours.

Asai

I'm asking that people not use language that they know will be a red flag to other players. I think we can all discuss our ideas in a more positive fashion  if we make at least some effort not to say things that others will find inflammatory.

Xandurpein wrote...

Spuro wrote...

RP-wise, I can't see myself playing a human noble or city elf warden to spare Loghain.

It is so interesting to see how different people reason in the same situation and honestly try to be good. Playing as playing Human Noble is one of those that I have easiest to spare him with, as I described above.

I honestly think I would have let Alistair talk me into let him kill Loghain if he hadn't turned it into a "Alistair or Anora" choice instead of "Alistair or Loghain" choice, the way he did in my first play. But I drew the line at going back on my deal with Anora. If my word given to someone who was both my Queen and my bethrothed wasn't worth anything, who was I then?

Did you tell her that you wouldn't kill her father? I didn't know that was part of the choices.... Or did you just feel honor bound to do so since you knew she would want it and was your betrothed? Edit: Never mind I missed a page of posts where you go into detail about your choice. I get it.

Very interesting, everyone! It's just fascinating to see how people can make such different choices with the same events and characters. Very interesting, indeed!

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 janvier 2010 - 06:10 .

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...

Very interesting, everyone! It's just fascinating to see how people can make such different choices with the same events and characters. Very interesting, indeed!

What is even more interesting is to see how long we can keep a thread on this subject this good and not derail into shouting. *crosses fingers and pray*

[SusanStoHelit]

Well, I wanted to say thank you to all who contributed positive feedback and ideas on how to actually roleplay such vastly different characters with exactly the same starting material. Regardless of who they like or hate or detest as npcs and companions.

I can see how I might be able to spare Loghain with a particular type of character in mind from the start. I don't know if I'll go that way, not sure I'd have fun playing them, but I might give it a try. I think the only really impossible under any circumstances choice for me now is the Branka one.

Is there a way to justify that in roleplaying terms? Other than being completely deranged yourself, I mean? I can't see any way to justify putting a raving lunatic who gave her own people over to be broodmothers and guinea pigs in such a position (having the ability to make golems) when you know she'll use any means to manufacture more of them. She certainly won't rely on getting volunteers. Or do you have to be evil yourself to be able to do it?

Thoughts?

Edit: Or should we start another thread to deal with Branka?

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:18 .

[Xandurpein]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Well, I wanted to say thank you to all who contributed positive feedback and ideas on how to actually roleplay such vastly different characters with exactly the same starting material. Regardless of who they like or hate or detest as npcs and companions.

I can see how I might be able to spare Loghain with a particular type of character in mind from the start. I don't know if I'll go that way, not sure I'd have fun playing them, but I might give it a try. I think the only really impossible under any circumstances choice for me now is the Branka one.

Is there a way to justify that in roleplaying terms? Other than being completely deranged yourself, I mean? I can't see any way to justify putting a raving lunatic who gave her own people over to be broodmothers and guinea pigs in such a position (having the ability to make golems) when you know she'll use any means to manufacture more of them. She certainly won't rely on getting volunteers. Or do you have to be evil yourself to be able to do it?

Thoughts?

Edit: Or should we start another thread to deal with Branka?

Hmm... No there is where I draw my limit I guess. I don't want ever to play a character who could be so cold hearted as to consider signing with Branka. I just wouldn't enjoy it.

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Well, I wanted to say thank you to all who contributed positive feedback and ideas on how to actually roleplay such vastly different characters with exactly the same starting material. Regardless of who they like or hate or detest as npcs and companions.

I can see how I might be able to spare Loghain with a particular type of character in mind from the start. I don't know if I'll go that way, not sure I'd have fun playing them, but I might give it a try. I think the only really impossible under any circumstances choice for me now is the Branka one.

Is there a way to justify that in roleplaying terms? Other than being completely deranged yourself, I mean? I can't see any way to justify putting a raving lunatic who gave her own people over to be broodmothers and guinea pigs in such a position (having the ability to make golems) when you know she'll use any means to manufacture more of them. She certainly won't rely on getting volunteers. Or do you have to be evil yourself to be able to do it?

Thoughts?

Edit: Or should we start another thread to deal with Branka?

I don't mind if we digress, as long as we continue to keep it in a positive and respectful tone. Discuss away!

[keesio74]

errant_knight wrote...


It occured to me that I could do it by creating a character that believed what Riordan said and went with it, then continued to make choices that were impossible to live with until, at the end, he/she was glad to die.

Remember that a lot of this game is about redemption. My city elf was allowed redemption for killing Vaughn (though he deserved it). Sten killed a bunch of innocent farmers and I allowed him to get some redemption. Sweet little Leliana also has a very dark past and she seeked redemption in the Chantry. Hell, I let a man hired to assassinate me (Zevran) join the party and friended him. I let Jowan help redeem himself a little by sparing him. I allowed Zathrien to break the curse allowing both him and the werewolves redemption.

Loghain is another one. You can say he screwed up worse than the others. But for a game that is about redemption, why not Loghain?

[ReubenLiew]

Because it costs Alistair.

And quite frankly I think that is the single most compelling reason why everyone refuses to allow Loghain redemption.

[Whisa]

SusanStoHelit wrote...


Is there a way to justify that in roleplaying terms? Other than being completely deranged yourself, I mean? I can't see any way to justify putting a raving lunatic who gave her own people over to be broodmothers and guinea pigs in such a position (having the ability to make golems) when you know she'll use any means to manufacture more of them. She certainly won't rely on getting volunteers. Or do you have to be evil yourself to be able to do it?

Thoughts?

Dwarves could handle this well - especially a dwarf on harrowmont's side for caste rigidity.  If he/ she doesn't think casteless are people, why would the possibility of them being forced into a golem bother him/ her?  Or an arrogant human noble, one who believes everyone beneath them is fodder for his/ her own army/ warmachine/ needs.  A highly religious human who believes that dwarves don't come from the maker, and so the torturing of them isn't important.  And/ or that they deserve to be golems for the heathens that they are.

You can also side with Branka and convince her to suicide, which opens it up to a few more people.  The "let's give it to her, see if she settles" then taking the more redemption choices lead right up to it

[Kilyra]

To the OP, that's a good way to do it, kind of put faith into the elder Grey Warden, then seriously regret it when the chips are down. I think I'll be saving Loghain this time around, as an elf from the Alienage, as it turned out Loghain was the first person to be encouraging to me. Even Duncan was all, "yeah, I spared your life, but really I just needed a recruit so it worked out.". Meanwhile Loghain told her she was beautiful that not to let anyone tell her she didn't belong and the first Warden he saw was like her and was the best fighter he'd ever met. It left an impression on her, so deep down, she's not entirely sure that Loghain is evil, or doing necessary evils for the greater good and she just doesn't see the big picture...I hear you though, it takes thought to justify it, it's hard

[errant_knight]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Because it costs Alistair.
And quite frankly I think that is the single most compelling reason why everyone refuses to allow Loghain redemption.

That's part of it, certainly, although the main reason is that I agree with Alistair about him pretty much entirely. But the prospect of losing Alistair for the rest of the game isn't one most would relish, although some are fine with it.

Kilyra wrote...

To the OP, that's a good way to do it, kind of put faith into the elder Grey Warden, then seriously regret it when the chips are down. I think I'll be saving Loghain this time around, as an elf from the Alienage, as it turned out Loghain was the first person to be encouraging to me. Even Duncan was all, "yeah, I spared your life, but really I just needed a recruit so it worked out.". Meanwhile Loghain told her she was beautiful that not to let anyone tell her she didn't belong and the first Warden he saw was like her and was the best fighter he'd ever met. It left an impression on her, so deep down, she's not entirely sure that Loghain is evil, or doing necessary evils for the greater good and she just doesn't see the big picture...I hear you though, it takes thought to justify it, it's hard

I can see it being just slightly easier if one isn't playing the human noble. Loghain's involvement with Howe makes the decision just that much more cut and dried for me in the noble origin.

Modifié par errant_knight, 12 janvier 2010 - 12:21 .

[ReubenLiew]

If you are able to keep Loghain without losing Alistair, I'm willing to bet 90% of the people who never spared him probably will.

That you have to give up a character you invested so much time on for another you hate for the better part of the game is too hard for most to swallow.

[eschilde]

@keesio74

There are opportunities for redemption in the game, but I wouldn't say that's what the game is necessarily about. In the context of City Elf, for example, your crime is killing the son of an Arl because he either was going to rape you, or rape your wife. I don't know how your CE feels about it, but mine didn't feel guilty _at all_ about killing Vaughn. She didn't feel the need to seek redemption; she viewed the GW as a get out of jail free card at first.



And I'm with ReubenLiew on this one. Alistair is the #1 reason for not doing it. There's plenty of ways to justify it either way in game, but if you're forced to lose a character that's spent the whole game fighting next to you to gain character who spent the whole game trying to get rid of you, the decision to allow redemption gets much tougher.

[errant_knight]

ReubenLiew wrote...

If you are able to keep Loghain without losing Alistair, I'm willing to bet 90% of the people who never spared him probably will.
That you have to give up a character you invested so much time on for another you hate for the better part of the game is too hard for most to swallow.

At least once or twice, certainly. I think you're right about that.

[SusanStoHelit]

Kilyra wrote...

To the OP, that's a good way to do it, kind of put faith into the elder Grey Warden, then seriously regret it when the chips are down. I think I'll be saving Loghain this time around, as an elf from the Alienage, as it turned out Loghain was the first person to be encouraging to me. Even Duncan was all, "yeah, I spared your life, but really I just needed a recruit so it worked out.". Meanwhile Loghain told her she was beautiful that not to let anyone tell her she didn't belong and the first Warden he saw was like her and was the best fighter he'd ever met. It left an impression on her, so deep down, she's not entirely sure that Loghain is evil, or doing necessary evils for the greater good and she just doesn't see the big picture...I hear you though, it takes thought to justify it, it's hard

But he also sold your people, people you knew, friends and neighbours,  into slavery.

[SusanStoHelit]

ReubenLiew wrote...

If you are able to keep Loghain without losing Alistair, I'm willing to bet 90% of the people who never spared him probably will.
That you have to give up a character you invested so much time on for another you hate for the better part of the game is too hard for most to swallow.

This is part of it, sure. But for me there's a bigger problem. It lets Loghain get off scot free - and, worst of all, it allows him be turned into a hero and examplar for future generations. "Look, you can be an evil sod and commit almost any conceivable crime, get away with it, and still be a hero! Try it for yourself."

Edit: So it's not just about 'punishing' Loghain. It's also about precedent.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 12 janvier 2010 - 12:31 .

[ReubenLiew]

He won't be turned into a hero, he's ALREADY a hero in the eyes of everyone else in Fereldan except for Grey Wardens and co. (and supporters).

Either case it would be irrelevant. Even if you feel that justice needs to be done, if you COULD recruit him without any loss, I'm willing to bet you'd do it.

[Whisa]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

If you are able to keep Loghain without losing Alistair, I'm willing to bet 90% of the people who never spared him probably will.
That you have to give up a character you invested so much time on for another you hate for the better part of the game is too hard for most to swallow.

This is part of it, sure. But for me there's a bigger problem. It lets Loghain get off scot free - and, worst of all, it allows him be turned into a hero and examplar for future generations. "Look, you can be an evil sod and commit almost any conceivable crime, get away with it, and still be a hero! Try it for yourself."

Or it could be seen as "do evil deeds, get the crap beaten out of you, be forced to be a GW (surely a disppearance after 30yr isn't unknown to some people, if the reason is hidden), and generally be discredited by everyone and known to be a traitor".

If he sacrifices himself, he might be known as the guy that ends the blight, but I doubt he'd be remembered as a hero anymore.

[Series5Ranger]

My reasoning was that I promised Anora that I'd try to spare him. She really is the best choice for Ruler and killing her father would upset her.

-and the whole "Hell Hath no fury" bit and all.

[keesio74]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Because it costs Alistair.
And quite frankly I think that is the single most compelling reason why everyone refuses to allow Loghain redemption.

You're right. I would have spared Loghain if not for the ultimatum from Alistair. However I wanted to spare Loghain only because he actually handled himself with some grace and humility after you beat him in the duel. If he continuted to be a ******, I would have not cared

[Xandurpein]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

If you are able to keep Loghain without losing Alistair, I'm willing to bet 90% of the people who never spared him probably will.
That you have to give up a character you invested so much time on for another you hate for the better part of the game is too hard for most to swallow.

This is part of it, sure. But for me there's a bigger problem. It lets Loghain get off scot free - and, worst of all, it allows him be turned into a hero and examplar for future generations. "Look, you can be an evil sod and commit almost any conceivable crime, get away with it, and still be a hero! Try it for yourself."

Edit: So it's not just about 'punishing' Loghain. It's also about precedent.

To be honest, I don't think this is how it works. What happens is that when a historical figure becomes a symbol in a nation, history simply forgets about the bad sides and only remember the good sides. So Loghain's bad sides won't be precedent, they'll simply be forgotten. It even says so in the ending, if you let Loghain kill the Archdemon, that Loghain becomes a national heor, and his darker sides were forgotten. Simply put, the "Hero of Ferelden" that people remembers in a hundred years will be a Loghain who did not do a lot of the bad things he did in reality. You may see this as unfair if you want, but that's what happens with most of our great historical figures. THey get made into icons and we conveniently forget anything that hurts the image.

[SusanStoHelit]

Xandurpein wrote...

To be honest, I don't think this is how it works. What happens is that when a historical figure becomes a symbol in a nation, history simply forgets about the bad sides and only remember the good sides. So Loghain's bad sides won't be precedent, they'll simply be forgotten. It even says so in the ending, if you let Loghain kill the Archdemon, that Loghain becomes a national heor, and his darker sides were forgotten. Simply put, the "Hero of Ferelden" that people remembers in a hundred years will be a Loghain who did not do a lot of the bad things he did in reality. You may see this as unfair if you want, but that's what happens with most of our great historical figures. THey get made into icons and we conveniently forget anything that hurts the image.

And this is exactly my problem with saving him. I know that. I'm a scholar. It's my job to know that, to reveal hidden things from the past (motives, actions, words, events) and reveal them to all, to not let people 'get away with' things  - and I won't have a bar of it. The truth must be revealed. No sweeping dirty secrets under the carpet and hiding them.