116 réponses à ce sujet

[Vicious]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Because it costs Alistair.
And quite frankly I think that is the single most compelling reason why everyone refuses to allow Loghain redemption.

It really is simple as that.

[asaiasai]

keesio74 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...


It occured to me that I could do it by creating a character that believed what Riordan said and went with it, then continued to make choices that were impossible to live with until, at the end, he/she was glad to die.

Remember that a lot of this game is about redemption. My city elf was allowed redemption for killing Vaughn (though he deserved it). Sten killed a bunch of innocent farmers and I allowed him to get some redemption. Sweet little Leliana also has a very dark past and she seeked redemption in the Chantry. Hell, I let a man hired to assassinate me (Zevran) join the party and friended him. I let Jowan help redeem himself a little by sparing him. I allowed Zathrien to break the curse allowing both him and the werewolves redemption.

Loghain is another one. You can say he screwed up worse than the others. But for a game that is about redemption, why not Loghain?

This is i think one of the possible themes of this game, redemption, for you, for the people you collect, for the people you serve, redemption for those who do not even realize they need it. Alot of the decisions the player has the option to make,(which is what makes DAO so great is the vast choices the player not gets to make but has to make) can and is usually influenced by thier RPing of thier origin, a bit of themselves, a bit of who they would like to be, and thier feeling towards the NPC characters. For me the decisions are based on what i need to defeat the blight, and the motives of the (NPC) character, the more alturistic your request the faster and harder i will work to grant it. Eamon has no desire but to protect the royal line and keep Feraldin safe so when the time comes he will get that chance to have the royal heir on the throne. To do that i must first consider what is necessary to stop the blight, as all the other evils combined pale in comparison to failure to end the blight. So when i need to face the archdemon i still need a second GW, as fortune would have it i can have it all. I make Allister marry Anora, saving him from either death or life as a drunk, Eamon and Feraldin get what they need. Sparing Loghain and his passing of the ritual gives me my second for the comming battle, at which time Loghain can redeem his person for his past trangressions and i get keep another character for the expansion . Ever since it was explained how to arrive at this conclusion in the forums, the more i think about it, the more i use it (5 times now) it is perfect. I personally get to satisfy one of my game heros Eamon,  Feraldin is in better shape than before the blight leadership wise, I get to walk away and by choosing the less blood thirsty path i redeem myself, and even Anora by marrying Allister is granted redemption.

P.S. I suppose this is a better explanation of my earlier post, i should have spent to thime to say it then as opposed to now and avoided any negative feelings.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 12 janvier 2010 - 06:56 .

[Ulicus]

Ah, Loghain. Proving "The Dark Knight" wrong since 2009.



He either dies a villain, or lives long enough to see himself become the hero. Sort of.

[errant_knight]

asaiasai wrote...

keesio74 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...


It occured to me that I could do it by creating a character that believed what Riordan said and went with it, then continued to make choices that were impossible to live with until, at the end, he/she was glad to die.

Remember that a lot of this game is about redemption. My city elf was allowed redemption for killing Vaughn (though he deserved it). Sten killed a bunch of innocent farmers and I allowed him to get some redemption. Sweet little Leliana also has a very dark past and she seeked redemption in the Chantry. Hell, I let a man hired to assassinate me (Zevran) join the party and friended him. I let Jowan help redeem himself a little by sparing him. I allowed Zathrien to break the curse allowing both him and the werewolves redemption.

Loghain is another one. You can say he screwed up worse than the others. But for a game that is about redemption, why not Loghain?

This is i think one of the possible themes of this game, redemption, for you, for the people you collect, for the people you serve, redemption for those who do not even realize they need it. Alot of the decisions the player has the option to make,(which is what makes DAO so great is the vast choices the player not gets to make but has to make) can and is usually influenced by thier RPing of thier origin, a bit of themselves, a bit of who they would like to be, and thier feeling towards the NPC characters. For me the decisions are based on what i need to defeat the blight, and the motives of the (NPC) character, the more alturistic your request the faster and harder i will work to grant it. Eamon has no desire but to protect the royal line and keep Feraldin safe so when the time comes he will get that chance to have the royal heir on the throne. To do that i must first consider what is necessary to stop the blight, as all the other evils combined pale in comparison to failure to end the blight. So when i need to face the archdemon i still need a second GW, as fortune would have it i can have it all. I make Allister marry Anora, saving him from either death or life as a drunk, Eamon and Feraldin get what they need. Sparing Loghain and his passing of the ritual gives me my second for the comming battle, at which time Loghain can redeem his person for his past trangressions and i get keep another character for the expansion . Ever since it was explained how to arrive at this conclusion in the forums, the more i think about it, the more i use it (5 times now) it is perfect. I personally get to satisfy one of my game heros Eamon,  Feraldin is in better shape than before the blight leadership wise, I get to walk away and by choosing the less blood thirsty path i redeem myself, and even Anora by marrying Allister is granted redemption.

P.S. I suppose this is a better explanation of my earlier post, i should have spent to thime to say it then as opposed to now and avoided any negative feelings.

Asai

Great post, thanks! I understand your reasoning and it's a very logical path if one sees Anora and Loghain in a somewhat different light. Thanks for explaining your view!

[Xandurpein]

One way or the other it's really hard to have any discussion about Loghain without Alistair entering into the picture and vice versa.

[El-Destructo]

My very practical elven assassin spared Loghain simply because the best way to recover the image of the Grey Wardens is to recruit the person who smeared it to begin with. Who just so happens to also be the hero of the River Dane and the father of the Queen, a very influential person. She also married Alistair and Anora to appease both sides at the landsmeet.



She only had some misgivings because of his endorsement of the Tevinter slave ring in the alienage, but since she permanently 'retired' the ring leader she felt vindicated enough to not need Loghain's head on a pike as well.



Also, a potential out of character reason to spare Loghain will probably end up being simply to see what kind of interaction you can get out of him in the Ostagar DLC when it is released. I would assume he should have some very interesting reflection on his actions, seeing the aftermath of his decisions first hand.

[rikkles]

Hmm... but how can you spare Loghain, keep Morrigan in the party and Alistair as well? As a female you get Alistair to marry Anora, and Loghain to spend the night with Morrigan?

I have to try that one.

[nos_astra]

rikkles wrote...

Hmm... but how can you spare Loghain, keep Morrigan in the party and Alistair as well? As a female you get Alistair to marry Anora, and Loghain to spend the night with Morrigan?
I have to try that one.

Everyone can do that. Being female is not nescessary.

[errant_knight]

rikkles wrote...

Hmm... but how can you spare Loghain, keep Morrigan in the party and Alistair as well? As a female you get Alistair to marry Anora, and Loghain to spend the night with Morrigan?
I have to try that one.

No matter what you do, if Loghain is in the party, Alistair isn't.

[Kilyra]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Kilyra wrote...

To the OP, that's a good way to do it, kind of put faith into the elder Grey Warden, then seriously regret it when the chips are down. I think I'll be saving Loghain this time around, as an elf from the Alienage, as it turned out Loghain was the first person to be encouraging to me. Even Duncan was all, "yeah, I spared your life, but really I just needed a recruit so it worked out.". Meanwhile Loghain told her she was beautiful that not to let anyone tell her she didn't belong and the first Warden he saw was like her and was the best fighter he'd ever met. It left an impression on her, so deep down, she's not entirely sure that Loghain is evil, or doing necessary evils for the greater good and she just doesn't see the big picture...I hear you though, it takes thought to justify it, it's hard

But he also sold your people, people you knew, friends and neighbours,  into slavery.

Well...I'm not that far yet...I'll have to think of some way to justify it before then haha:P

[Tinmachine]

I think any dwarf could spare Loghain, as they



1) may not care about Ferelden politics at all, least of all about who-killed-whom

2) their own political games seem to be even tougher than Ferelden's and they are well used to this stuff

3) they have the Legion of the Dead, or the being-tossed-into-the-Deep-Roads. Whatever you did, you can go fight the darkspawn and the world forgets about you.



So, for a dwarf, it could even feel natural to recruit Loghain. A dwarven matter-of-fact character could easily choose Loghain over Alistair, actually.



Another pick would be an utter bastard of a character, who just does not care about morals. I spared Loghain as a Blood Mage, who

1) purged the Tower to take revenge on the soft mages who would bow to the chantry. Oh, and killed Wynne outright.

2) chose to keep golems whatever the cost, and chose Bhelen over the meek Harrowmont

3) purged the Dalish because the Werevolves seemed to be better allies

4) let Isolde die and sold her son's soul to the demon for power

5) summoned the abomination in Ortan Thaig and took the gold

6) was arguing with Alistair over every decision taken. Loghain would understand, wouldn't he?



There are ways to create PCs that could easily sympathise with Loghain. Ofc, on the first playthrough, I was a goodie human noble girl who killed Loghain, married Alistair and lived happily until they both went mad and disappered in the Trenches...

[Xandurpein]

The interesting thing is that there is really no reason why an evil player should spare Loghain more than a good one. Good/noble players would debate whether Loghain can be redeemed or not. Evil/cold hearted players can debate whether keeping Loghain is a tactically sound or not. Either way you can end up choosing one or the other.

[Tinmachine]

Xandurpein wrote...

The interesting thing is that there is really no reason why an evil player should spare Loghain more than a good one. Good/noble players would debate whether Loghain can be redeemed or not. Evil/cold hearted players can debate whether keeping Loghain is a tactically sound or not. Either way you can end up choosing one or the other.

True. Although my evil character, I imagine, just thought "one useless warrior or other, I may as well pick the one who won't be constantly bickering." That Blood Mage would wipe the floor with seven archdemons with or without either Alistair or Loghain, so tactics were not the issue when chosing

[Zoikster]

Enslaving the elves kind of erased any chance of me seeing any light in Loghain. That along with the betrayal, he doesn't deserve to be spared; I would like to do it sometime to see the other side of the story though.

[Xandurpein]

Zoikster wrote...

Enslaving the elves kind of erased any chance of me seeing any light in Loghain. That along with the betrayal, he doesn't deserve to be spared; I would like to do it sometime to see the other side of the story though.

I can certainly understand those feelings. Let me just point out that, to me at least, there is a vast difference between deciding to let Loghain live to be a Grey Warden and actually accepting or forgiving his actions.

[Kilyra]

Hmm...is there any way to push through dialogue during the liberation of the elf slaves? With the end guy who reveals everything about the slavery, are you able to just start attacking him without finding out who is behind it?

EDIT: Well....wait I guess at the beginning you find out that Loghain sent these people to cure the sick elves, I guess that's a give away anyhow.

Modifié par Kilyra, 12 janvier 2010 - 06:53 .

[Topaz Bee]

Before I developed a like for Loghain, I found playing as a good little Gray Warden to make sparing Loghain to be much easier. As soon as Riordan spoke up about conscripting him, it was case closed. Neither Alistair nor my newbie ass should have had any opposing say in it. So I sided with Riordan, and unfortunately had to let Alistair be executed.... nobody leaves the Gray Wardens. Remember Jory?



It was after that where I found the ideal outcome; let Loghain die a heroic death, and have Alistair on the throne.