260 réponses à ce sujet

[StayFrosty05]

arial wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...

arial wrote...

....snip....

you are saying ME1 had better relationships between Shepard and Squad...?

Okay, I am sure you are Trolling now, other then a few romance specific scenes, the only conversations you have in ME1 is asking about their background (or in Tali's case, the quarian people).

unlike ME3 where you not only learn about their background, but their hopes, dreams, and reason to keep fighting.

No, not better....just actual choices in friendship development.....Actual better dialogs came with ME2 and ME3, they became grittier and more realistic in ME2&3....Shep was way too much 'Is 'damn' a swear word?" in ME1....What I am referring to in ME3 is enforced relationship/friendships status....For example, I know a number of people didn't recruit Garrus in ME1....yet Shep and Garrus are the best of friends in ME3 (I recruited and love Garrus myself, but I can clearly understand peoples frustration with the forced BFF status)....Same goes for Liara....my Shep didn't pick her up until after Virmire and didn't speak with her, didn't do LotSB, but come ME3 their BFF's....my Shep hardly knows her.... Those who sided with Cerberus...what a kick in the gut for them....You could RP a xenophobic Shep in ME1, not allowed in ME3.....Loyalties to be gained in ME2, few have relevance in ME3.....List on relationship development thrown out the window goes on and on in ME3.

liara is present on the SSV Normandy SR1 when it is taken down by the Collector Cruiser.

thus, it seems she continued to Serve with Shepard after the Events of ME1, thus they likely had missions together between the two titles

....And if he was RP'ed as Xenophobic?

[Mr.House]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

Re-read my post Dreman....I am saying ME2 and ME3 have grittier more realistic dialog than ME1....and ME3 has the grittiest....Actual diaolg (words used) wise....ME3 is very well done, emotional, etc....But what was left out was the ability to RP Sheps approach and thoughts towards and about his crew/squad and his feelings on these issues....much of Sheps response choice is gone through auto dialogs, auto reactions, auto emotions, this is what was lost.

How is that a ME3 issue? This issue was also in ME2. Should I remind oyu of the Joker buddy buddy moment that was pure auto dialog, auto emotions and auto reactions in ME2? There's also you know, Shepard acting very distant on Illum with Liara if you romanced her, Shepard acting like a bonehead on Horizon ect

Now I'm not saying ME3 should get a pass for this, but both games should be criticized for this, more so when it started with ME2 which is a game this forum seems to hold like it's the holy grail when so many issues that exists in ME3 where either in ME2 or where the cause of ME2.

ME2 and ME3 should have followed ME in terms of how that stuff was handled, but the writers simply did not because they wanted to cater to new fans and to make the game more open.

Modifié par Mr.House, 25 février 2013 - 02:15 .

[dreman9999]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

arial wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...

arial wrote...

....snip....

you are saying ME1 had better relationships between Shepard and Squad...?

Okay, I am sure you are Trolling now, other then a few romance specific scenes, the only conversations you have in ME1 is asking about their background (or in Tali's case, the quarian people).

unlike ME3 where you not only learn about their background, but their hopes, dreams, and reason to keep fighting.

No, not better....just actual choices in friendship development.....Actual better dialogs came with ME2 and ME3, they became grittier and more realistic in ME2&3....Shep was way too much 'Is 'damn' a swear word?" in ME1....What I am referring to in ME3 is enforced relationship/friendships status....For example, I know a number of people didn't recruit Garrus in ME1....yet Shep and Garrus are the best of friends in ME3 (I recruited and love Garrus myself, but I can clearly understand peoples frustration with the forced BFF status)....Same goes for Liara....my Shep didn't pick her up until after Virmire and didn't speak with her, didn't do LotSB, but come ME3 their BFF's....my Shep hardly knows her.... Those who sided with Cerberus...what a kick in the gut for them....You could RP a xenophobic Shep in ME1, not allowed in ME3.....Loyalties to be gained in ME2, few have relevance in ME3.....List on relationship development thrown out the window goes on and on in ME3.

liara is present on the SSV Normandy SR1 when it is taken down by the Collector Cruiser.

thus, it seems she continued to Serve with Shepard after the Events of ME1, thus they likely had missions together between the two titles

....And if he was RP'ed as Xenophobic?

Then that's a problem with ME2 being that he some how let her stay on the ship. Added, you can just not talk to her in ME3.

Realy, renaduce playthroughs just don't work out no matter which ME game you're playing.

[arial]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

arial wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...

arial wrote...

....snip....

you are saying ME1 had better relationships between Shepard and Squad...?

Okay, I am sure you are Trolling now, other then a few romance specific scenes, the only conversations you have in ME1 is asking about their background (or in Tali's case, the quarian people).

unlike ME3 where you not only learn about their background, but their hopes, dreams, and reason to keep fighting.

No, not better....just actual choices in friendship development.....Actual better dialogs came with ME2 and ME3, they became grittier and more realistic in ME2&3....Shep was way too much 'Is 'damn' a swear word?" in ME1....What I am referring to in ME3 is enforced relationship/friendships status....For example, I know a number of people didn't recruit Garrus in ME1....yet Shep and Garrus are the best of friends in ME3 (I recruited and love Garrus myself, but I can clearly understand peoples frustration with the forced BFF status)....Same goes for Liara....my Shep didn't pick her up until after Virmire and didn't speak with her, didn't do LotSB, but come ME3 their BFF's....my Shep hardly knows her.... Those who sided with Cerberus...what a kick in the gut for them....You could RP a xenophobic Shep in ME1, not allowed in ME3.....Loyalties to be gained in ME2, few have relevance in ME3.....List on relationship development thrown out the window goes on and on in ME3.

liara is present on the SSV Normandy SR1 when it is taken down by the Collector Cruiser.

thus, it seems she continued to Serve with Shepard after the Events of ME1, thus they likely had missions together between the two titles

....And if he was RP'ed as Xenophobic?

ever hear of Concuring fears over time?

I will admit, Once upon a time I had a racist attitude in RL (I am not proud of it), but then I began working with a co-worker from Sierra Leone. after time I learnt he is not all that diferent then me, we both had the same hopes and dreams, we both likesd the same kind of things, we got along really wll at the office and actually started hanging out outside of work (He makes an amazing wing-man). since then, I no longer judge a person via their race or upbringing, but by the character of their heart.

It is very possible the same thing happened to Shepard.

[dreman9999]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...

arial wrote...

....snip....

you are saying ME1 had better relationships between Shepard and Squad...?

Okay, I am sure you are Trolling now, other then a few romance specific scenes, the only conversations you have in ME1 is asking about their background (or in Tali's case, the quarian people).

unlike ME3 where you not only learn about their background, but their hopes, dreams, and reason to keep fighting.

No, not better....just actual choices in friendship development.....Actual better dialogs came with ME2 and ME3, they became grittier and more realistic in ME2&3....Shep was way too much 'Is 'damn' a swear word?" in ME1....What I am referring to in ME3 is enforced relationship/friendships status....For example, I know a number of people didn't recruit Garrus in ME1....yet Shep and Garrus are the best of friends in ME3 (I recruited and love Garrus myself, but I can clearly understand peoples frustration with the forced BFF status)....Same goes for Liara....my Shep didn't pick her up until after Virmire and didn't speak with her, didn't do LotSB, but come ME3 their BFF's....my Shep hardly knows her.... Those who sided with Cerberus...what a kick in the gut for them....You could RP a xenophobic Shep in ME1, not allowed in ME3.....Loyalties to be gained in ME2, few have relevance in ME3.....List on relationship development thrown out the window goes on and on in ME3.

What? No way is it  more gritter or realistic. Heck, look at Garus as he worried about his family or Liara's reaction when seeing and hereing about worlds fall.
Even Joker, who in ME1 and ME2 who always was Joking around, get his hit with reality with him worring over his family,and the top it of his syster is dead with out him knowing about it.

ME3 RELATIONS SHIPS ARE WAY BETTER THEN THE ONES IN ME1.

Re-read my post Dreman....I am saying ME2 and ME3 have grittier more realistic dialog than ME1....and ME3 has the grittiest....Actual diaolg (words used) wise....ME3 is very well done, emotional, etc....But what was left out was the ability to RP Sheps approach and thoughts towards and about his crew/squad and his feelings on these issues....much of Sheps response choice is gone through auto dialogs, auto reactions, auto emotions, this is what was lost.

This is going back you you wanting to be a renadeuce, isn't it?

[Shepard108278]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

Well i'd agree can't say the same for others though.

[CronoDragoon]

This is not an issue with ME3 specifically as much as the whole series:

Paragon/Renegade dialogue options need to go. They cheapen the choices and conflict by giving you "outs" way too often. See: Tali's loyalty mission. There is also the problem that the wheel is always Paragon top and Renegade bottom, but that is a necessary precaution against paraphrase misunderstanding: even if you don't know what your Shep is really going to say, by having the same "type" of response in the same places you can sort of protect your role-playing.

Actually, Mass Effect 3 helps with this the most, since the game focuses on Reputation more than anything, allowing you to if you want still be a Paragon while occasionally picking Renegade stuff if you feel strongly about it.

[StayFrosty05]

Mr.House wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...

Re-read my post Dreman....I am saying ME2 and ME3 have grittier more realistic dialog than ME1....and ME3 has the grittiest....Actual diaolg (words used) wise....ME3 is very well done, emotional, etc....But what was left out was the ability to RP Sheps approach and thoughts towards and about his crew/squad and his feelings on these issues....much of Sheps response choice is gone through auto dialogs, auto reactions, auto emotions, this is what was lost.

How is that a ME3 issue? This issue was also in ME2. Should I rmeind oyu of the Joker buddy buddy moment that was pure auto dialog, auto emotions and auto reactions in ME2? There's also oyu know, Shepard acting very distant on Illum with Liara if you romanced her, Shepard acting like a bonehead on Horizon ect

Now I'm not saying ME3 should get a pass for this, but both games should be crititsed for this, more so when it started with ME2 which is a game this forum seems to hold like it's the holy grail when so many issues that exsist in ME3 where either in ME2 or where the cause of ME2.

ME2 and ME3 should have follwoed ME in terms of how that stuff was handled, but the writers simply did not because they wnated to cater to new fans and to make the game more open.

I agree Mr House....ME2 is guilty of the same issue.....and yes, should have stayed with ME1's choice's opportunities.

[NeonFlux117]

Side mission and actual side quest's

19 N7 missions in ME2.

6 in ME3.

Mods of everything. Weapons, armor, ammo, mods, mods, mods.

A lot like ME1.

Loot.

An ending where you see your assets and decisions. Not, boom, Shepard's really hurt, now go choose 3 endings that are mostly the same, with ending slides. Yay!!!!

[Ravellion]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You still have to work with cerberus in ME2. And you can where your CERBERUS armor in ME3. You can't really be anti alliance being that theperson heading it now is one of the few people who believed you.

ITT: Dreman, taking out the role-play in role playing games and wondering why people don't like it.

The behaviour you advocate would be difficult to swallow for a real live table top DM. In the current medium, certain assumptions must be made. Look at other succesful RPGs, they all make assumptions like this. In Baldur's gate, you can't do anthing unless you solve the problem in Nashkel, even though you might have little motiation to do so, say,  if you are roleplaying a bookish wzard from Candlekeep. In the original KotOR, you have to develop your force skills at the Jedi academy, even if you don't want to. In Neverwinter Nights, you have to save Neverwinter etc. etc.

[StayFrosty05]

arial wrote...

....snip....

ever hear of Concuring fears over time?

I will admit, Once upon a time I had a racist attitude in RL (I am not proud of it), but then I began working with a co-worker from Sierra Leone. after time I learnt he is not all that diferent then me, we both had the same hopes and dreams, we both likesd the same kind of things, we got along really wll at the office and actually started hanging out outside of work (He makes an amazing wing-man). since then, I no longer judge a person via their race or upbringing, but by the character of their heart.

It is very possible the same thing happened to Shepard.

In RL I am an outspoken and very passionate advocate in the war against Racism...But ME is a game based on interacting with other Species...some of those Species I simply in fact would consider them quite a large and dangerous threat to all other life if they were real....Asari and Krogan....But that's all beside the point, a Shep changing his mind about other Species is forced unless desired onto the player by the powers that be...the simple fact is the RP choices shrunk tremendously in the ME franchise.

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 25 février 2013 - 02:25 .

[StayFrosty05]

CronoDragoon wrote...

This is not an issue with ME3 specifically as much as the whole series:

Paragon/Renegade dialogue options need to go. They cheapen the choices and conflict by giving you "outs" way too often. See: Tali's loyalty mission. There is also the problem that the wheel is always Paragon top and Renegade bottom, but that is a necessary precaution against paraphrase misunderstanding: even if you don't know what your Shep is really going to say, by having the same "type" of response in the same places you can sort of protect your role-playing.

Actually, Mass Effect 3 helps with this the most, since the game focuses on Reputation more than anything, allowing you to if you want still be a Paragon while occasionally picking Renegade stuff if you feel strongly about it.

I love the reputation system in ME3....that was a brilliant decision....ME1 you had to waste points in the Para/Ren bars to have choices of either (I liked to mix it up a lot, my Shep was pretty unpredictable)....ME2 had a terrible system, hated it on XBox....moved the whole thing to PC just to max the Bars (console) so I could continue my mad Sheps escapades.

[DWH1982]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

Re-read my post Dreman....I am saying ME2 and ME3 have grittier more realistic dialog than ME1....and ME3 has the grittiest....Actual diaolg (words used) wise....ME3 is very well done, emotional, etc....But what was left out was the ability to RP Sheps approach and thoughts towards and about his crew/squad and his feelings on these issues....much of Sheps response choice is gone through auto dialogs, auto reactions, auto emotions, this is what was lost.

I'm afraid you're probably arguing with a brick wall. There are people who refuse to recognize that ME3 has any flaws, just as there are people who refuse to recognize that it was a very fun game to play despite its flaws.

[Ravellion]

Though ME3 is clearly an RPG to me, I'd say what would make it more of an RPG is that some of the autodialogue has to go, namely the very emotional reactions, esp. Thessia. After Earth I can say "I'm fine", but after Thessia my Shepard cracks? Why? It disconnected me from the role I was playing, and the role the previous games reinforced - Shepard as the immovable centre of the Normandy crew. Even if he would be cracking, he wouldn't show it.

[CronoDragoon]

Not to mention that on 2 of my ME2 playthroughs I couldn't solve the loyalty conflict between Miranda and Jack because if you do it too late it becomes friggin impossible to solve.

[CronoDragoon]

Ravellion wrote...
Even if he would be cracking, he wouldn't show it.

Then he's not really cracking, is he? 

I actually like Thessia because of that; the autodialogue worked there to make me feel like Shepard was losing it and slipping from my grasp. That's obviously a bit too abstract for a lot of people to stomach but it worked for me. If anything, they didn't go far enough with it, since Shepard seems fine again on the next mission.

[StayFrosty05]

DWH1982 wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...

Re-read my post Dreman....I am saying ME2 and ME3 have grittier more realistic dialog than ME1....and ME3 has the grittiest....Actual diaolg (words used) wise....ME3 is very well done, emotional, etc....But what was left out was the ability to RP Sheps approach and thoughts towards and about his crew/squad and his feelings on these issues....much of Sheps response choice is gone through auto dialogs, auto reactions, auto emotions, this is what was lost.

I'm afraid you're probably arguing with a brick wall. There are people who refuse to recognize that ME3 has any flaws, just as there are people who refuse to recognize that it was a very fun game to play despite its flaws.

True....And yes, the combat is brilliant in ME3, the best in the franchise yet imho....just a pity they did balance the much improved combat with consistancy in RP.

[SyK18]

Wait a sec?! Mass Effect 3 is NOT a RPG?? What else has Bioware lied about?

[StayFrosty05]

Ravellion wrote...

Though ME3 is clearly an RPG to me, I'd say what would make it more of an RPG is that some of the autodialogue has to go, namely the very emotional reactions, esp. Thessia. After Earth I can say "I'm fine", but after Thessia my Shepard cracks? Why? It disconnected me from the role I was playing, and the role the previous games reinforced - Shepard as the immovable centre of the Normandy crew. Even if he would be cracking, he wouldn't show it.

I hear you...I do like seeing the cracks in his demeanor myself, but would have much preferred some choice there as to when he cracks and for what reason....basically using it as dialog options to be used at your own discretion with a number of crew/squaddies...not enforced, but as left sided options with a small variety of of squad/crew and all LI's.

[Cecilia L]

crimzontearz wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...

What would you change about ME3 to make it an RPG if you could?

My priority change would be...being able to create relationships (friendships) with Crew/Squad (positive/negative, etc...) throughout the series and have them hold true into ME3.

What's yours?

system wise?

more skills, more armor customization (doing what armor does) especially for squaddies, more weapon mods, PROPER ammo mods, omni tool mods, amp mods

conceptually? TRULY branched storyline and a RANGE of endings

FACEPALM

RPG means Role Playing Game, as in playing a role, not customizing skills and stats. Goddess, so many gamers never understand this. (and I enjoy D&D character tweaking and optimizing too, but Role Playing!!*indignation*)

[StayFrosty05]

SyK18 wrote...

Wait a sec?! Mass Effect 3 is NOT a RPG?? What else has Bioware lied about?

ummm...

1/ Choices matter
2/ MP won't effect SP
3/ Many branches in ME3

Want me to continue?....

[CronoDragoon]

Choices do matter, though.

[Sharn01]

dreman9999 wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...

arial wrote...

It is an RPG.

Genre's evolve overtime, ME3 is what the "Sci-fi RPG" has evolved into.

Not saying it is good (I, as most of the civilized world, dislike change).

the RPG Genre has been changing for years, its not classic RPG, but this is what RPGs have become.

"There is only one thing that does not change in this world, and that is the fact things will always change"

I beg to differ....ME3 evolved into just another linear story shooter...preset characters, relationships, etc....

me3 story is no where near  as linear as a shooter even if ME3 isthe most linear me game in the series.

Example:One tuchank start you go where you want  with the avalible mission and skill mission with negative results.

Also, ME had corridor shooting since ME1 and ME1 only made gun the only dependible way to kill  things unlike ME2 and 3.

And lest not get started with the skill list...ME3 power list is the largestin the series.

Your problem is that you're not getting that it's an action rpg.

Most modern western RPG's are actually action RPG's.  I think the problem stems from the fact that they are all still being labeled as RPG when an Action RPG is an entirely different genre of game that borrows heavily from RPG's.

This does not make any of these ARPG's bad games, I like ARPG's a lot if they are well done, but they are not RPG's if you want to argue the finer points of the label.

Modifié par Sharn01, 25 février 2013 - 02:44 .

[chemiclord]

Let me ask you all a question.

Is Final Fantasy 7 an RPG?

I wonder how many people will answer correctly.