260 réponses à ce sujet

[StayFrosty05]

David7204 wrote...

There are two choices in games. You can make the relationships with other characters more variable, so that the player character can canonically hate them, or betray them, or kill them. But the price of that is that those characters cannot have an effort on the story, or much of an effect on other characters, or, really, much of an effect on anything. Fallout: New Vegas is a good example of this. You can kill your companions if you don't like them. Or betray them.  But nothing happens. None of your other companions so much as notice. The story continues the same as before. The only thing that changes is their personal quest and ending.

Or you can have characters play a role in the story. But to do that, characters have to have some sort of relationship with the player character, regardless of how the player feels about them.

And as such it is a story, not an RPG.

[Bob Garbage]

auto dialogue
lack of significant paragon/renegade interrupts

one makes the game feel out of one's control and the other results in an ultimately very linear experience. neither of these things are RPG qualities - or at least they shouldn't be these days.

Modifié par Bob Garbage, 25 février 2013 - 07:26 .

[David7204]

..It's both?

You're going to have a pretty miserable time with fiction of this sort if you believe that RPGs and stories are mutually exclusive.

[Mr.House]

Bob Garbage wrote...

auto dialogue
lack of significant paragon/renegade interrupts

one makes the game feel out of one's control and the other results in an ultimately very linear experience. neither of these things are RPG qualities.

Interupts via a quick time event make an rpg now? Guess PS:T is not a rpg then.

Also there was alot of significant interrupts in ME3.

Also if auto dialog means it's not an rpg then TW, TW2, Deus Ex:HR, ME,ME2 and ME3 are all not rpgs.

Modifié par Mr.House, 25 février 2013 - 07:30 .

[Liamv2]

It is an RPG but if i could add anything i would add the ability to level up weapon skills like in ME1

[Indy_S]

David7204 wrote...

The Mass Effect series does character relationships better than any fiction I've read or watched or played. Not any game. Any fiction.

I disagree to an extent. The inter-character relations that don't involve Shepard all seem shallow with the exception of Joker and EDI. In addition, the relations Shepard has with the other characters are inconsistent and the lack of focus on them during the missions highlights this rather well. Everyone just has a copy-paste script. In other stories that lack this level of abstraction, the relationships are handled far more consistently.

[StayFrosty05]

David7204 wrote...

..It's both?

You're going to have a pretty miserable time with fiction of this sort if you believe that RPGs and stories are mutually exclusive.

There's Game stories and there's RPG stories.......ME3 became a Game story....there's a substancial difference.

[David7204]

They do some things better by doing other things worse. What are you suggesting? That characters shouldn't have a 'copy paste' script?

Modifié par David7204, 25 février 2013 - 07:34 .

[Indy_S]

David7204 wrote...

They do some things better by doing other things worse. What are you suggesting? That characters shouldn't have a 'copy paste' script?

I'm suggesting that the relationship should remain reactive even during combat sequences. Concistency is an important factor in relationships. If I have a camaraderie relationship, I expect that to be different to a professional relationship. During gameplay, Vega doesn't change.

[David7204]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

..It's both?

You're going to have a pretty miserable time with fiction of this sort if you believe that RPGs and stories are mutually exclusive.

There's Game stories and there's RPG stories.......ME3 became a Game story....there's a substancial difference.

You have the right to like whatever you want. But you understand you forfeit the right to complain about a lot of things? You forfeit the right to complain that characters don't affect the story. You forfeit the right to complain that characters don't have relationships with one another. You forfeit the right to complain about the lack of a lot of potential character development since characters can't be connected to the central plot.

[David7204]

Indy_S wrote...

David7204 wrote...

They do some things better by doing other things worse. What are you suggesting? That characters shouldn't have a 'copy paste' script?

I'm suggesting that the relationship should remain reactive even during combat sequences. Concistency is an important factor in relationships. If I have a camaraderie relationship, I expect that to be different to a professional relationship. During gameplay, Vega doesn't change.

That's the first time I've heard that. Just combat? No real differences in story sequences?

[StayFrosty05]

David7204 wrote...

They do some things better by doing other things worse. What are you suggesting? That characters shouldn't have a 'copy paste' script?

Relationships/Friendships should have been relevant to previous ME installments and Sheps status in those relationships/friendships bought across...not just who your Shep happens to be bonking.

My suggestion from the above would be....'Cut and Paste' neutral dialogs and for ease of game keep most dialogs neutral....mixed with specific dialogs related to previous realtionships/friendships from the first two games....Continuity

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 25 février 2013 - 07:41 .

[Mr.House]

Indy_S wrote...

David7204 wrote...

They do some things better by doing other things worse. What are you suggesting? That characters shouldn't have a 'copy paste' script?

I'm suggesting that the relationship should remain reactive even during combat sequences. Concistency is an important factor in relationships. If I have a camaraderie relationship, I expect that to be different to a professional relationship. During gameplay, Vega doesn't change.

Vega has plenty of unuiqe lines only he says in combat, same with all the other squadmates.  Also I find the Vega/Steve, Liara/Kaidan, Liara/Garrus, Garrus/Tali, Garrus/Wrex. Tali/Legion realonship just fine, and really well done because unlike ME2, PEOPLE TALKED TO EACHOTHER. In ME and ME3 my team felt like a team because they argued, they communicated, they talked to eachother ect. In mE2 I never felt likemy team was a team, just a group of deadly people there for a job, get their paycheck and then leave.

Modifié par Mr.House, 25 février 2013 - 07:44 .

[Applepie_Svk]

1.Well... at first place narrative which wouldn´t be so bad back in 2012 that people had to make a polls, send a cakes, send money to charity, in general fans backlash..... to make a new pile of ending which make again 0 sense from narrative standpoint.

2. Less greedy overlords which stands behind cutting core narrative into the DLC...

3. Less of laziness.

[StayFrosty05]

David7204 wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

..It's both?

You're going to have a pretty miserable time with fiction of this sort if you believe that RPGs and stories are mutually exclusive.

There's Game stories and there's RPG stories.......ME3 became a Game story....there's a substancial difference.

You have the right to like whatever you want. But you understand you forfeit the right to complain about a lot of things? You forfeit the right to complain that characters don't affect the story. You forfeit the right to complain that characters don't have relationships with one another. You forfeit the right to complain about the lack of a lot of potential character development since characters can't be connected to the central plot.

Makes almost zero sense...how so?

[Mr.House]

Applepie_Svk wrote...


greedy overlords which stands behind cutting core narrative into the DLC...

laziness.

This road started with ME2.

Modifié par Mr.House, 25 février 2013 - 07:47 .

[Indy_S]

David7204 wrote...

That's the first time I've heard that. Just combat? No real differences in story sequences?

I've already accepted that Vega has no story consequences. He exists in a vacuum except for Shepard and Cortez. He has no impact at all on Cortez.

I know you're not a fan of the Walking Dead, but I feel it did better character relationships.

[David7204]

Because, as I just explained, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Because it's impossible to have a story that both gives the player complete control over their relationship with characters and yet has characters play a strong role in the story and with each other. You can't have both. You can't. So demanding one thing and then complaining that you didn't get the other is stupid.

[Indy_S]

Mr.House wrote...

Vega has plenty of unuiqe lines only he says in combat, same with all the other squadmates.  Also I find the Vega/Steve, Liara/Kaidan, Liara/Garrus, Garrus/Tali, Garrus/Wrex. Tali/Legion realonship just fine, and really well done because unlike ME2, PEOPLE TALKED TO EACHOTHER. In ME and ME3 my team felt like a team because they argued, they communicated, they talked to eachother ect. In mE2 I never felt likemy team was a team, just a group of deadly people there for a job, get their paycheck and then leave.

ME3 was better in this regards, don't get me wrong, but banter, among other things, is done better in other fiction, which was the core point of David's post. Unique dialogue in combat is nice but that's not what I'm talking about. He doesn't refer to your relationship, all it serves is to characterise himself.

[MacroSpamMK]

Sometimes I wonder whether some of you know the actual difference between typical shooters and ME3.

[Indy_S]

David7204 wrote...

Because, as I just explained, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Because it's impossible to have a story that both gives the player complete control over their relationship with characters and yet has characters play a strong role in the story and with each other. You can't have both. You can't. So demanding one thing and then complaining that you didn't get the other is stupid.

I understand. To me, Mass Effect did not achieve that compromising balance. Claiming that no other fiction has done character relationships better feels wrong, though. I take it you only made this claim because it was interactive relationships? That was in no way clear with your initial post on the matter.

[StayFrosty05]

David7204 wrote...

Because, as I just explained, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Because it's impossible to have a story that both gives the player complete control over their relationship with characters and yet has characters play a strong role in the story and with each other. You can't have both. You can't. So demanding one thing and then complaining that you didn't get the other is stupid.

I get what you had to say about Fallout, but felt it was not the best of examples....as keeping a professional relationship is a lot different from killing off a character just because you don't like them.

Shep does not have to play snuggle bunnies with everyone within his sphere to be a good leader and run a successful spear head operation....relationship/friendship choices and contiuity from previous games is about that, not bumping off who you don't happen to like....Not everyone needs to hold 'love in' sessions with their commader to be a part of a working and successful specialist crew.

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 25 février 2013 - 07:55 .

[Mr.House]

Indy_S wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Vega has plenty of unuiqe lines only he says in combat, same with all the other squadmates.  Also I find the Vega/Steve, Liara/Kaidan, Liara/Garrus, Garrus/Tali, Garrus/Wrex. Tali/Legion realonship just fine, and really well done because unlike ME2, PEOPLE TALKED TO EACHOTHER. In ME and ME3 my team felt like a team because they argued, they communicated, they talked to eachother ect. In mE2 I never felt likemy team was a team, just a group of deadly people there for a job, get their paycheck and then leave.

ME3 was better in this regards, don't get me wrong, but banter, among other things, is done better in other fiction, which was the core point of David's post. Unique dialogue in combat is nice but that's not what I'm talking about. He doesn't refer to your relationship, all it serves is to characterise himself.

And that's what I want. Talking to a character is not enough in my eyes, they need to interect with the other characters, act themselfes in the battlefield ect, that's what I want. ME did this to a degree but could have been better. ME2 only focused on the Shepard side and while this might work for people, it does not work for me and fialed. ME3 did what I wanted. DAO and even DA2 did a much better job, but in terms of the ME series, ME3 did it best in my eyes. It's not perfect, but it's much better then ME2 which failed in this area.

[StayFrosty05]

Indy_S wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Vega has plenty of unuiqe lines only he says in combat, same with all the other squadmates.  Also I find the Vega/Steve, Liara/Kaidan, Liara/Garrus, Garrus/Tali, Garrus/Wrex. Tali/Legion realonship just fine, and really well done because unlike ME2, PEOPLE TALKED TO EACHOTHER. In ME and ME3 my team felt like a team because they argued, they communicated, they talked to eachother ect. In mE2 I never felt likemy team was a team, just a group of deadly people there for a job, get their paycheck and then leave.

ME3 was better in this regards, don't get me wrong, but banter, among other things, is done better in other fiction, which was the core point of David's post. Unique dialogue in combat is nice but that's not what I'm talking about. He doesn't refer to your relationship, all it serves is to characterise himself.

I personally love the banter between the crew/squad in ME3....BW nailed that one....it's Sheps own status set in previous games ignored that are jarring and forced.

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 25 février 2013 - 07:58 .

[Mr.House]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Vega has plenty of unuiqe lines only he says in combat, same with all the other squadmates.  Also I find the Vega/Steve, Liara/Kaidan, Liara/Garrus, Garrus/Tali, Garrus/Wrex. Tali/Legion realonship just fine, and really well done because unlike ME2, PEOPLE TALKED TO EACHOTHER. In ME and ME3 my team felt like a team because they argued, they communicated, they talked to eachother ect. In mE2 I never felt likemy team was a team, just a group of deadly people there for a job, get their paycheck and then leave.

ME3 was better in this regards, don't get me wrong, but banter, among other things, is done better in other fiction, which was the core point of David's post. Unique dialogue in combat is nice but that's not what I'm talking about. He doesn't refer to your relationship, all it serves is to characterise himself.

I personally love the banter between the crew/squad in ME3....BW nailed that one....it's Sheps own status set in previous games ignored that are jarring and forced.

ME2 Shepard ignored ME Shepards status, so why where you surprised ME3 did this?

Modifié par Mr.House, 25 février 2013 - 07:59 .