283 réponses à ce sujet

[ReallyRue]

The Hierophant wrote...

Filament wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

I hope there aren't too many different fantasy species though. The more are introduced the higher the likelihood we'll end up getting anthro cat people and the like.

I'm not seeing the problem here. 

Final Fantasy's Viera?

Or the Ronso?

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I didn't say Spain. I said Spanish. I was addressing their language, as variations of Spanish are used outside of Spain. Zevran says "Si amor?" to a romanced Warden and Vincento says "Maldición" to Hawke.

That's fair.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

David Gaider wrote...

Four things:

1) Thedas is not Europe. It's vaguely based on medieval Europe-- and, while I can see why some people would like more fantasy based on things other than medieval Europe (and I approve-- heck, we did Jade Empire after all), it is and the setting is already created. Making direct comparisons to "it was like this in European history", however, and trying to say that means it should also be like this in Thedas is not going to hold much weight. Dragon Age is not a historical simulation.

2) That said, there were black people in Europe. Depending on which era you look at, in fact, there were potentially a lot of them. Thedas also has Rivain, which is roughly analogous to medieval Spain... but I wouldn't try to stretch the comparison too hard.

3) We've said previously that we'd like to have more ethnic variation in Dragon Age. Our previous engine couldn't do very dark skin tones very well, but with that fact changed it's something we'd like to include. Rivain does exist, like I said, and while they're not the most populous country their people are not exactly barred into their cities. We're going to include them where they make sense, and thankfully there are indeed places where they make sense. It's perfectly reasonable for people to ask for more of this-- it's not about "political correctness" so much as not making the default white in every single instance just because nobody thought it could maybe be otherwise.

4) All that said, trying to squeeze every real-world ethnicity onto one continent simply isn't going to happen. There are, however, places in Dragon Age other than the continent of Thedas... should we ever go to those places, one should expect to see other sorts of people there. And there's nothing stopping the occasional traveler from far away coming into the game for plot reasons, though that's going to be exceptional simply because traffic between the continents is not exactly great. If it was, you'd expect people to be talking about "the lands beyond Thedas" a trifle more, wouldn't you? That could, however, always change.

How people look in the game is really more the Art department's province than Writing's, but we have input on the subject (and a degree of influence over the context). Ultimately this is something you're simply going to have to wait and see on, and we'll show what we mean. Beyond that, however, like I said above there's really no reason to slam anyone who asks for more representation in fantasy. It's a big place.

I know this idea is a bit of a stretch, but what about making Jade Empire the Chinaese or Asain version for Thedas? Granted there would a lot of lore to work out but, I think most of it is compatible with some thought.  

I would love too see the Black Whirlwind and Oghren fight and/or team up. Two drunken axe wielding warriors, I would actually feel sorry for anybody that got in their way. 

[henkez3]

Everyone should just stop trying to force real-world politics, religion and race-issues on DA. It's a fantasy world, the creators can do whatever they want and include or exclude whatever they want.

I remember some people complaining about dark skinned people in DAO and DA2 looked european, that might not have been intended, but if it was intended, then that's okay too. Having black-skinned people with the features of europeans is totally fine, it's FANTASY.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I want Chinese, Persian, Spanish and Russian accent people in DA:I ... Oh yeah!

[Ashelsu]

Duncan and Isabela seem like arabic people to me now. I wonder what they and Chasind would be like in new engine?

[AtreiyaN7]

I'm half-Chinese here, but I don't want BioWare to attempt to shoehorn in any kind of Asian-based civilization just for the sake of having one.

I don't see this fitting into a world that is based largely on medieval Europe. Sure, there was contact between Asia and Europe via the Silk Road and all throughout history. However, the issue is whether or not any of that stuff actually fits into a game revolving around a conflict between the Chantry and the mages.

When the Chantry's seat of power seems to be in Orlais pretty much and the conflict seems to mainly involve Orlais this time around, I just don't feel that this idea fits. Also, it should be pointed out that the China and Japan both became rather insular nations at a certain point (just look up Zheng He, the great Chinese explorer, and read about what happened to China's armada of large trading vessels ).

As far as WoW goes, I've played it and was amused by MoP. Look, I can accept a continent with an Asian-themed civilization showing up all of a sudden in Azeroth, but that's only because Azeroth is so much more fantastical than Thedas that they can actually get away with it. Thedas is grounded in realism (despite having fantastical elements), so if some Asian civilization were to somehow magically show up in Thedas, there had better be a logical and sensible reason for it. Otherwise, I don't want to see it.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 25 février 2013 - 08:32 .

[The Hierophant]

ReallyRue wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Filament wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

I hope there aren't too many different fantasy species though. The more are introduced the higher the likelihood we'll end up getting anthro cat people and the like.

I'm not seeing the problem here. 

Final Fantasy's Viera?

Or the Ronso?

Or the Bangaa?

[ReallyRue]

The Hierophant wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Filament wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

I hope there aren't too many different fantasy species though. The more are introduced the higher the likelihood we'll end up getting anthro cat people and the like.

I'm not seeing the problem here. 

Final Fantasy's Viera?

Or the Ronso?

Or the Bangaa?

Moogles! The Qunari continent needs short counterparts to the dwarves, with equally good business sense. It needs Moogles!

[The Hierophant]

ReallyRue wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Filament wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

I hope there aren't too many different fantasy species though. The more are introduced the higher the likelihood we'll end up getting anthro cat people and the like.

I'm not seeing the problem here. 

Final Fantasy's Viera?

Or the Ronso?

Or the Bangaa?

Moogles! The Qunari continent needs short counterparts to the dwarves, with equally good business sense. It needs Moogles!

True, Montblanc was a bro in Tactics Advance, & XII, plus there needs to be some Seeq in case of a famine as bacon is delicious.

[Nerevar-as]

David Gaider wrote...

2) That said, there were black people in Europe. Depending on which era you look at, in fact, there were potentially a lot of them. Thedas also has Rivain, which is roughly analogous to medieval Spain... but I wouldn't try to stretch the comparison too hard.

The christian or the muslim part? I do agree about not stretching that, at least with what we´ve seen so far.

[Twisted Path]

I would love to see more fantasy games that break away from the alternate-universe-europe thing that's been done to death in fantasy settings. I loved Jade Empire for this reason (also gameplay issues aside I thought it was a fantastic game.)

I would love to see something that takes place in Fantasy Africa with mythological elements taken from stuff like Kirikou and the Sorceress. Another good place for inspiration would be the documentary Cosmic Africa, where this guy goes around exploring a lot of mythical traditions in various places on the continent. It's a bit of a hokey movie but you see a lot of mythology and mystical traditions that are pretty interesting and obscure, and some fantastic places like the sandstone-cliff cities of Mali, which would be perfect for a fantasy setting.

Of course Dragon Age is pretty firmly rooted in Fantasy Europe, and a trip to Fantasy Africa or the Fantasy Middle East or Fantasy Korea or whatever would be a bit of a stretch considering the transportation technology of the times.

[Nefla]

I think it's fine as-is. Not everyone is white though most are. I don't remember anyone complaining that there was one white guy in Jade Empire and everyone else was Asian. Having every minority represented feels really forced like those 90s Saturday morning cartoons witha group of kids that would be like one white, black, Asian, middle eastern, Native American, and one kid in a wheelchair. (Or blind)

[Brodoteau]

It would actually be nice to have a Thedosian equivalent to the Vikings or Columbus, who comes back with tales from the "New World."

[karushna5]

Actually I think Antiva is very loosely based on Italy, whose Mafia actually first arrived in the Middle Ages and in many ways sounds like the Crows in their politics and murder.

As far as blacks in Europe, there is evidence they came before the Saxons in some regions. This is partly due to Rome which conquered some of Africa, and before them Greece had much Traffic in trade and even traveling to some parts of Africa. Also Vikings were well known for taking slaves or pressing people of different countries who settled in far off lands, in fact when the Irish were raided they put the Vikings in several categories, one of which is black foreigners. Vikings actually have a very long record of other black Vikings. If you want a later date, during Elizabeth's 1st time there were large black communities. Racism based on color really wasn't as bad as it was in the mid 1700s and got worse with Social Darwinism.

[legbamel]

LobselVith8 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

There is no Asia in Dragon Age, nor should there be. The universe is an allegory of medieval Europe.

Why shouldn't there be? We see the Spanish influence with Antivans, and the dark skinned denizens of the kingdom of Rivain who clearly aren't European at all.

  Have you never been to the Mediterranean, which is bordered along much of it's north shore by Europe?  There are plenty of darker-skinned Europeans out there.  [This is, of course, ignoring Isabela's Fereldan accent, which I presume is not what you meant.]

Modifié par legbamel, 26 février 2013 - 01:32 .

[Wulfram]

legbamel wrote...

  Have you never been to the Mediterranean, which is bordered along much of it's north shore by Europe?  There are plenty of darker-skinned Europeans out there.  [This is, of course, ignoring Isabela's American accent, which I presume is not what you meant.]

I agree the Rivainis we've seen so far look fairly mediterranean, but as I understand it the intention is for them to have "have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony".

Also,American accent:blink:?  Isabela has a British accent - actually she shared a VA with Anora in the first game.  Her DA2 VA spent much of her childhood in South Africa, but I never noticed any of that accent in the game.

[TEWR]

ReallyRue wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Filament wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

I hope there aren't too many different fantasy species though. The more are introduced the higher the likelihood we'll end up getting anthro cat people and the like.

I'm not seeing the problem here. 

Final Fantasy's Viera?

Or the Ronso?

The Ronso are seriously the best anthropomorphic cat race out of all of them. 

[Yumichika]

David Gaider wrote...
How people look in the game is really more the Art department's province than Writing's, but we have input on the subject (and a degree of influence over the context). Ultimately this is something you're simply going to have to wait and see on, and we'll show what we mean. Beyond that, however, like I said above there's really no reason to slam anyone who asks for more representation in fantasy. It's a big place.

Well, i'll say let's wait and see. I'm glad knowing they will explore the possibilities and diversities

But, my point was :
- Thedas is fantasy, i wanted it to reflects worldwide ethnicities not just culture. As this topic is also talking about culture some aspects of DA were great copying what already exists in Europe (we know where). 
The recent concept art shows unfortunatly once again the tendency is Spain, Italy, France. Thanks for those who have posted links and images to show how thedas world is very similar to europe even the festivities, castles houses are what we had in medieval Europe. In a certain point of History Thedas could have the same history as the united states of america or australia or south africa. (The Melting Pot)

- Will we have some unexpected outfits, culture etc ? That are not inspired by African, European, South American, Asian style ? If we do i'll be happy. About Ethnicity as they said we will have some good surprises i'll wait. About the rest please we need more Fancy, Mirific things. ANd more fantasy animals not too much but just one or two more so we feel that we are not in Earth but somewhere else a real different world.

PS: I do not know why people are comparing Jade Empire with Dragon Age. The first One is Inspired by China, the second one even if it is inspired by a medieval fantastic world should offer more surprises, diversities, what we still did not have. DAO was different at least the darkspawn were around.

Is Thedas situated on Earth ? Why shouldn't we have all the ethnicities in the same continents ? Knowing also that traveling is not that easy why the outfits are very similar. I understand why people are talking about worldwide tendency. The difference have to be clearly visible.

Modifié par Yumichika, 26 février 2013 - 01:09 .

[legbamel]

Wulfram wrote...

legbamel wrote...

  Have you never been to the Mediterranean, which is bordered along much of it's north shore by Europe?  There are plenty of darker-skinned Europeans out there.  [This is, of course, ignoring Isabela's American accent, which I presume is not what you meant.]

I agree the Rivainis we've seen so far look fairly mediterranean, but as I understand it the intention is for them to have "have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony".

Also,American accent:blink:?  Isabela has a British accent - actually she shared a VA with Anora in the first game.  Her DA2 VA spent much of her childhood in South Africa, but I never noticed any of that accent in the game.

Sorry, I meant Fereldan.  Apparently my attention was divided. 

[Karlone123]

It would be interesting to the Egyptian influence put into play by a race, a bit like the Kossith architecture being based on the Mayans, I think at least.

[gw2005]

Plaintiff wrote...

Obviously there are cultures in the world with a non-European influence, though. The Qunari came from somewhere.

rolson00 wrote...
they would have to go to a new continent DA currently is based on the three power houses of medieval Europe (Britain. France & Spain) but on the other hand the  Tevinter Imperium could be used to introduce new nations threw enslaved citizens

They could do that, but it wouldn't be interesting. It'll be like adding another inferior race to the game like the elves that are already there. I know I'm not suppose to make real world comparison there, but only in terms of actual historical countries, the game does take a lot of historical setting and mesh them up.

At the time of medival Europe, the Asian continent was at the height of its power and influence. Ottoman empire is obvious, lots of contacts with Europe and everything. There wasn't a long lived empire in the Indian subcontinent at the time, but it was a rich place compared to how Europe was. Then there's China, the biggest economy over the past 2000 years, at one time accounted for 80% of the world's GDP.

There's a tonne of little African empires, Mali for exemple is one the bigger ones. I think there was a mention of how asians influenced the elves? I don't think so, in fact, I personally think the Native Americans makes better comparison, with their harmony with nature and everything, but that's just me. So there's also the Mayans, Aztec, Inca, etc. I mentioned Polynesians too, I mean there's tonnes of inspiration aside from the stock Dwarves, Elves, and Human races. There's also the fact that while the European, Egyptian, and Middle Eastern mythologies are all interralated, there's a lot of overlapping gods, and heros and so on, the far eastern mythologies are a complete seperate set of stories that has a lot of offer.

Again, there's really no real world comparison on a country to country basis. But take a look at the Qunari back story, there's that Arabs introducing gunpowered to Europe from China theme. It's perfectly logical to conclude that there's a powerful presence at wherever the Qunari first came from. And if we go with the Asian comparison, it's probably a neutral. There's a lot of room for power dynamic. (maybe Bioware team should hire a international relations major as an advisor -- me XD)

I think there's a lot of stuff that can still be expanded on with what the game has shown us already. I applaud the DA writing team for this, they created a rich backstory with a lot of room to expand. There's really no need to introduce entire new continents and races just yet, I think I mentioned that too. But it's a direction worth considering in future games.

Modifié par gw2005, 26 février 2013 - 02:53 .

[Terraforming2154]

If they could integrate it well, I'd be happy to see other cultures in Dragon Age. I'm pretty much up for anything, really.

(though this post, more than anything else, is just making me realize how much I want another Jade Empire game)

[Heimdall]

Terraforming2154 wrote...

(though this post, more than anything else, is just making me realize how much I want another Jade Empire game)

Join the club

[Medhia Nox]

Concerning "dwarves" and "elves" - not even Tolkien's elves are very similar to Norse mythology.

The Ljosalfar and Svartalfar were "spirits" of the woods - and were not the hyper-civilized immortal beings of Tolkien (and later the Beverly Hills Housewives of D&D).

Dwarves are closer - but still - they're hardly the demi-humans of D&D. Heck - some suggest that the Svartalfar (Dokkalfar) were just another name for dwarfs... making elves and dwarfs the same "race" (totally inadequate term for the actual myths) in Norse mythology.

I'm just very against the "dwarves and elves in Norse myth are just like Tolkien represents them". I feel it expresses a lack of exposure to those very myths and limits creativity to "all dwarves and elves must be like this".

Not to mention other cultures who had their own version of "woodland spirits" and "stone and earth spirits".

The dwarves and elves we see regularly in fantasy have a LOT of difference - especially the elves, which don't necessarily even have corporeal forms. They were never glamorous fashion models/Native American wannabes.

Anyway - it's a nerd pet peeve.