283 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadyKat]

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's kinda interesting how Euro-centric fantasy enthusiasts tend to be.

China, India and Japan - Aztecs, Maya and Incan - Egyptian, Carthaginian, Nubia - the indigenous of Australia, South Pacific Islanders - Arabians, Persians, Russians - Celtic and Norse - Cherokee, Iroquois and Sioux ....

There are hundreds of cultures more interesting than another story about England, France, Spain and Italy.

Warhammer Fantasy and Hyboria are so superior to Thedas and always will be (despite my appreciation for the work Bioware has done here).

I fully support Bioware exploring different cultural mythologies.

Most people are scared of change, so anything outside of the norm is a no-no. Gotta keep the same old generic fantasy setting that has been done a million times before.

[gw2005]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I'm half-Chinese here, but I don't want BioWare to attempt to shoehorn in any kind of Asian-based civilization just for the sake of having one.

I don't see this fitting into a world that is based largely on medieval Europe. Sure, there was contact between Asia and Europe via the Silk Road and all throughout history. However, the issue is whether or not any of that stuff actually fits into a game revolving around a conflict between the Chantry and the mages.

When the Chantry's seat of power seems to be in Orlais pretty much and the conflict seems to mainly involve Orlais this time around, I just don't feel that this idea fits. Also, it should be pointed out that the China and Japan both became rather insular nations at a certain point (just look up Zheng He, the great Chinese explorer, and read about what happened to China's armada of large trading vessels ).

As far as WoW goes, I've played it and was amused by MoP. Look, I can accept a continent with an Asian-themed civilization showing up all of a sudden in Azeroth, but that's only because Azeroth is so much more fantastical than Thedas that they can actually get away with it. Thedas is grounded in realism (despite having fantastical elements), so if some Asian civilization were to somehow magically show up in Thedas, there had better be a logical and sensible reason for it. Otherwise, I don't want to see it.

I'm in almost complete agreement, but I don't think the idea is that outrageous. I actually didn't play the panda patch, so I can't speak to that. I know how the game is set in medival europe and i respect that, but they've also got the Qunari, and their backstory is just leaking of future possiblities. You know the part where they came from a far away continent across the sea, the fact that they rely on a completely seperate technology tree. etc. Now, if you've read the comic, it seems to me that DA is moving towards another direction entirely, that is, a more interwoven story based on existing characters, but like David said, this is definately not out of the window, but personally, I don't think it'll be in DA3 or any of its DLCs. Maybe in DA4.

Also, 

David Gaider wrote...

rolson00 wrote...
@David Gaider yes I agree with you, I suggested in my first comment introducing ethnic people via the Tevinter imperium as slaves, is that feasible?

I think I'd prefer to avoid the implication that extra-continental ethnic groups are automatically enslaved whenever they encounter Thedosian white people-- there's no reason they couldn't have a powerful culture of their own, albeit far off-- but with regards to lone stragglers, I suppose it's possible. Even so, I'm uncertain I'd use that as an introduction for an entirely new culture.

Thank you.

Modifié par gw2005, 26 février 2013 - 05:13 .

[LvrdAjay]

Come on guys....Where's the Hindus and The Indians at...They should be in there....

You could have Rajput Warriors....

Modifié par A-Z77, 26 février 2013 - 07:55 .

[Eleinehmm]

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's kinda interesting how Euro-centric fantasy enthusiasts tend to be.

China, India and Japan - Aztecs, Maya and Incan - Egyptian, Carthaginian, Nubia - the indigenous of Australia, South Pacific Islanders - Arabians, Persians, Russians - Celtic and Norse - Cherokee, Iroquois and Sioux ....

There are hundreds of cultures more interesting than another story about England, France, Spain and Italy.

Warhammer Fantasy and Hyboria are so superior to Thedas and always will be (despite my appreciation for the work Bioware has done here).

I fully support Bioware exploring different cultural mythologies.

While I do understand and even somewhat support the sentiment you are trying to express, something in this post rubs me the wrong way.   Weird way to mix countries and cultures as if they are the same, probably.
Plus, sometimes people would explicitly be against this kind of representation because it would most probably mean that their culture would be misrepresented yet again. No thanks.

[Galbrant]

Now I want to see a Dwarf in Samurai Armor.

[Wulfram]

Galbrant wrote...

Now I want to see a Dwarf in Samurai Armor.

[chuckles471]

Jayne126 wrote...

We need more samurai.

I would be O.K with that... as long as it wasn't the romanticized version of one.  I hate all the bull**** about them, you don't see all the knights in dragon age going about being chivalrous.
 
A mounted archer who took pot shots with a bow at peasents with farm equipment, who couldn't give a crap about honour.  Also none of the nonsense about the Katana, it was a sword used to kill people... That's it, none of this hullabaloo about it must have blood when it is drawn.    

[Paul E Dangerously]

ShadyKat wrote...
Most people are scared of change, so anything outside of the norm is a no-no. Gotta keep the same old generic fantasy setting that has been done a million times before.

Yeah, Bioware is scared of offending anyone, which is why every LI in DA2 (except the DLC character) is bisexual.

..wait.

At any rate, I don't want anything added that's just a cheap culture expy. Give me more things like the Qunari, which have real world influences without being carbon copies of "this is obviously X culture".

[Medhia Nox]

@Eleinehm: I'm not sure how I'm mixing cultures... do you mean: "Don't get your non-European mythology into my Euro-centric fantasy?"  Because even the: "I don't have a problem with it - it just doesn't belong." is mildly xenophobic.

How I classified them was largely regional... listing every variation of mythology would be impossible - I have a book that lists easily two or three thousand deities throughout history. So I suppose I was oversimplifying - but I'm not sure I was being offensive by putting China and Japan in a similar regional category.

So - now that I'm done trying to guess what you meant - if you could explain why it's so bad to enjoy Non-European myth would be appreciated.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 26 février 2013 - 02:37 .

[Eleinehmm]

double post

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 26 février 2013 - 03:04 .

[Eleinehmm]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Eleinehm: I'm not sure how I'm mixing cultures... do you mean: "Don't get your non-European mythology into my Euro-centric fantasy?"  Because even the: "I don't have a problem with it - it just doesn't belong." is mildly xenophobic.

How I classified them was largely regional... listing every variation of mythology would be impossible - I have a book that lists easily two or three thousand deities throughout history. So I suppose I was oversimplifying - but I'm not sure I was being offensive by putting China and Japan in a similar regional category.

Wohoo! I have been classifed as a proper european again, cool  !
Oh please madam (sir?), we all know that the so called "regional" groupings are (mostly) social constructions meaning that people use these groupings politically (Example: How many continents are there in the world? And how many people do you think will answer the same way) 

Medhia Nox wrote...
So - now that I'm done trying to guess what you meant

How nice of you, English is my third language.

Medhia Nox wrote...
If you could
explain why it's so bad to enjoy Non-European myth would be appreciated.

Hello, Cultural Appropriation, nice to see you too . I have seen one of my cultures treated quite horribly by the modern western media, and I don’t really want  to see people touching it,  period.  Clear enough ? Or should I write something on the balance of power and general history of the world too ?

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 26 février 2013 - 03:03 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Eleinehmm: You have such a chip on your shoulder - not sure why. I'm asking you what you mean - and you seem to be flying off the handle. If you could present an actual explanation from your soapbox - that would be great.

Are you telling me that Japan and China aren't in the same region... at least when compared to... China and say... the Aztecs? Are we seriously getting outraged by these kinds of classifications as if they're so off base?

So you're a xenophobe who thinks Europeans should only enjoy "European myth" and any globalism is "Cultural Appropriation"?

Well - I apologize but I'm from the United States - the land of Cultural Appropriation. And the theory (not usually practiced) is that everyone and everything is welcome here. That I would fall in love with Indian mythology - or Japanese mythology - is not a detriment to my understanding of the world (it enhances it) - not sure why you seem to be suggesting that it is.

And would you argue that since Bioware is in Canada - did they "culturally appropriate" medieval European myth? 

And I'm not talking about demonizing Iraq or North Korea or Afghanistan - I'm talking about myth - and I'm talking about many cultures which don't even exist anymore (even the China I'm talking about doesn't exist much anymore).

So yeah - if you're going to say: "I don't want you using Djinn because that is cultural appropriation of ancient Persian mythology. So hands off." I'm gonna have to say... I don't care what you want.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 26 février 2013 - 03:18 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

ShadyKat wrote...
Most people are scared of change, so anything outside of the norm is a no-no. Gotta keep the same old generic fantasy setting that has been done a million times before.

That setting sells more copies of a game. Every now and then you get something like Fallout, which is very successful while offering a very unique experience and setting. But if I recall correctly, Jade Empire didn't sell as well as Bioware had hoped. I imagine that's why we still haven't gotten a sequel. Dragon Age is much easier for the North American audience to digest. It's familiar to anyone who's played RPG's before and anyone who's seen LOTR.

[Eleinehmm]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Eleinehmm: You have such a chip on your shoulder - not sure why. I'm asking you what you mean - and you seem to be flying off the handle. If you could present an actual explanation from your soapbox - that would be great.

Are you telling me that Japan and China aren't in the same region... at least when compared to... China and say... the Aztecs? Are we seriously getting outraged by these kinds of classifications as if they're so off base?

So you're a xenophobe who thinks Europeans should only enjoy "European myth" and any globalism is "Cultural Appropriation"?

Well - I apologize but I'm from the United States - the land of Cultural Appropriation. And the theory (not usually practiced) is that everyone and everything is welcome here. That I would fall in love with Indian mythology - or Japanese mythology - is not a detriment to my understanding of the world (it enhances it) - not sure why you seem to be suggesting that it is.

And I'm not talking about demonizing Iraq or North Korea or Afghanistan - I'm talking about myth - and I'm talking about many cultures which don't even exist anymore (even the China I'm talking about doesn't exist much anymore).

So yeah - if you're going to say: "I don't want you using Djinn because that is cultural appropriation of ancient Persian mythology. So hands off." I'm gonna have to say... I don't care what you want.

All right, how about a private message, because I am pretty much sure we are getting too close to breaking the rules of the forums.

[Yumichika]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Eleinehmm: You have such a chip on your shoulder - not sure why. I'm asking you what you mean - and you seem to be flying off the handle. If you could present an actual explanation from your soapbox - that would be great.

Are you telling me that Japan and China aren't in the same region... at least when compared to... China and say... the Aztecs? Are we seriously getting outraged by these kinds of classifications as if they're so off base?

So you're a xenophobe who thinks Europeans should only enjoy "European myth" and any globalism is "Cultural Appropriation"?

Well - I apologize but I'm from the United States - the land of Cultural Appropriation. And the theory (not usually practiced) is that everyone and everything is welcome here. That I would fall in love with Indian mythology - or Japanese mythology - is not a detriment to my understanding of the world (it enhances it) - not sure why you seem to be suggesting that it is.

And would you argue that since Bioware is in Canada - did they "culturally appropriate" medieval European myth? 

And I'm not talking about demonizing Iraq or North Korea or Afghanistan - I'm talking about myth - and I'm talking about many cultures which don't even exist anymore (even the China I'm talking about doesn't exist much anymore).

So yeah - if you're going to say: "I don't want you using Djinn because that is cultural appropriation of ancient Persian mythology. So hands off." I'm gonna have to say... I don't care what you want.

Good Point

Eleinehmm no need to go private as far as u are polit with each other. Ur points of view is very interesting so share it with us both of u.

[Lennard Testarossa]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
But if I recall correctly, Jade Empire didn't sell as well as Bioware had hoped. I imagine that's why we still haven't gotten a sequel. Dragon Age is much easier for the North American audience to digest. It's familiar to anyone who's played RPG's before and anyone who's seen LOTR.

Jade Empire is the only Bioware game I didn't finish. I tried playing it thrice and couldn't force myself to play more than a few hours on every attempt. The gameplay is absolutely horrible. I'd think that was far more detrimental to sales than the setting (though it certainly didn't help either. I can't stand fortune cookie mysticism. It'd be nice if it were left out of future Fantasy games inspired by East Asian cultures.)

[Eleinehmm]

Yumichika wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Eleinehmm: You have such a chip on your shoulder - not sure why. I'm asking you what you mean - and you seem to be flying off the handle. If you could present an actual explanation from your soapbox - that would be great.

Are you telling me that Japan and China aren't in the same region... at least when compared to... China and say... the Aztecs? Are we seriously getting outraged by these kinds of classifications as if they're so off base?

So you're a xenophobe who thinks Europeans should only enjoy "European myth" and any globalism is "Cultural Appropriation"?

Well - I apologize but I'm from the United States - the land of Cultural Appropriation. And the theory (not usually practiced) is that everyone and everything is welcome here. That I would fall in love with Indian mythology - or Japanese mythology - is not a detriment to my understanding of the world (it enhances it) - not sure why you seem to be suggesting that it is.

And would you argue that since Bioware is in Canada - did they "culturally appropriate" medieval European myth? 

And I'm not talking about demonizing Iraq or North Korea or Afghanistan - I'm talking about myth - and I'm talking about many cultures which don't even exist anymore (even the China I'm talking about doesn't exist much anymore).

So yeah - if you're going to say: "I don't want you using Djinn because that is cultural appropriation of ancient Persian mythology. So hands off." I'm gonna have to say... I don't care what you want.

Good Point

Eleinehmm no need to go private as far as u are polit with each other. Ur points of view is very interesting so share it with us both of u.

I’d have to reference real world politics A LOT (to counter the standard “but you guys are wearing jeans” defence) and according to the code of conduct:

These forums are for BioWare, video game and related topic discussion and are to be engaged in a pleasant and fun manner. These forums are run by BioWare and Electronic Arts for the promotion of our games and communicating to our customers and Community members. The topics and subjects discussed here should focus around BioWare and our games, video games in general and other related topics. These forums are not for discussing other topics such as politics, sex or adult topics, religion, etc. Topics or discussions may be closed at the discretion of staff and volunteer moderators.

Views on Cultural appropriation differ a lot, even inside a particular cultural community. But I am pretty much sure that “Screw you guys, I am using it, if you don’t like it you are a reverse racist” is not acceptable at all.

Plus, sadly enough, I feel that I am fighting an uphill battle , writing in my third language and engaging people who (most probably) don’t have the same experiences I have.

If this Lady/Gent would like to continue the talk, she/he is free to write me a message. I wish I didn't have this chip on my shoulder, but well...

[shootist70]

Not sure how you would ever shoehorn this into the DA universe.

Still, I don't know why some people think Asian influences would be incongruous in European based fantasy. It was the peoples from the asiatic steppes who had an enormous impact on European history, from the the very early medieval period onwards.

My own theory is that they've already been (mis)represented in high fantasy for a long time now (along with other 'eastern' peoples) - as orcs and goblins (darkspawn?) stemming from Tolkien.

Modifié par shootist70, 26 février 2013 - 05:08 .

[LinksOcarina]

Most of your concepts of race/cultural analysis are very cute...

Historical context for a moment regarding the fantasy genre, but most of it is a pastiche of various forms of mythology that has stemmed from Tolkien and typically warped into different forms that are now basically gestalts of what we expect. We expect the elves to be fair-haired, graceful people. We expect dwarves to be stout, bearded folk who live in mountains. We expect humans to be corruptible ****s, and Orcs to be villains and pure evil.

A lot of this is why its the norm. Let us be honest for a moment and ask ourselves, is Dragon Age unique in its representation of Dwarves or Elves? In some respects we can say yes in terms of their personal cultural history, but many of the traits we see are still ingrained in their cultural backgrounds.

The same can be said about real world cultures and races. Jade Empire was a great Asian-themed fantasy, a setting we don't see too often and I would love to see more of. A lot of the fun for me was to point out the different styles of naming conventions, considering Jade Empire used both Wade-Giles, pinyin, english and Kanji to interpret both Cantonese and Mandarin spelling conventions.

Much like Dragon Age, its an amalgam of several cultures, in this case Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Thai influences, and had concepts of Hinduism, Sanskrit, Taoist and Confusianism philosophy rolled into one to make the world unique.

That is basic world building. You take a theme and create it from there. How it is unique is how you make the world work. You don't need any analogues to Japan or China in Dragon Age so you can say their race is represented. No one particularly thinks about race in these kind of worlds to begin. They about the Anders people or the Antivian People, the Orlesians or the Tevinters. The Qunari or the Dalish. That is their versions of race. That is all we really need. The influences of other cultures is just the extra icing on the cake.

[Medhia Nox]

@Eleinehmn: Okay, if English is your first language you write in it far better than I could write in even a second language.

I'm sorry you've misunderstood my requests for clarity as the usual internet sarcasm against poorly written English. It was an actual request for clarity on an ideal - not a language barrier.

I'd also like to be clear that I'm not at all interested in misrepresenting modern cultures and real people.

I am discussing purely fictional - mythological themes. Even if those themes are occasionally represented religiously - and followers of those religions view them as historical instead of allegorical - the fact that something like the Vedic wars no longer occurs with Rakshasa and Varana and Asuras and Devas separates this material from... let's say, Pakistani/Indian conflicts in Kashmir.

Concerning past cultures which "did" occur - I don't feel that using traditionally Japanese themes (one example) like samurai, geisha, katana and kimonos is in any way misrepresenting or disrespectful to the culture it is based off of.

And - as LinksOcarina suggest - "based off of" is important here.

The Orlesians aren't an historical representation of France... and a representation of a Japanese themed culture using even just the four things I mentioned - wouldn't be an historical representation of Japan.

However - I do know that I was exposed to a wider spectrum of real world mythology through good and bad adaptations of those ideas. The same goes with representations of culture - good ones tend to be "fair" in representation - while stereotypes can be offensive, but still informative.

Afterward - and I'm positive I'm not the first person to ever do this - I go off and educate myself further about the "real" culture... at lease as much as I possibly ever could.

@Eleinehmn: I find the use of other cultures a celebration of a wider perception of the world... any response I've given has actually been more of a blindsided reaction to what seems to be a request for isolation.

As a little aside - United States citizens tend toward (it is not a generalization - it is not all encompassing - but it is my experience as an American. I'm also not saying it is only Americans - for those fellow citizens who think I'm attacking the U.S. people here) isolation when it comes to exposure to the world. I feel it very important to destroy that lack of exposure - and if a medium like video games can help do that... I want to see more of it.

I'm sorry if I'm just rambling now - I truly am not trying to be inconsiderate to others wishes by saying: "I don't care." But I have to admit that I'm not going to suddenly stop studying other culture's histories for the fear I might see a misrepresentation.

For myself - I've played, read, watched, discussed "European Fantasy" for close to 26 years now - so I'm just expressing a desire for something far less represented.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 26 février 2013 - 06:12 .

[karushna5]

I am an American, but have some cultural assimilation due to where and how I was raised. I find that stereotypes introduced in the media are hard to shake off for the West and often makes the culture and the history mangled and insults a lot of people, an example: Indiana Jones showed Kali as an evil Goddess who you sacrifice innocent women to. She wasn't and in some parts of India is a huge figure and in some cases a cultural mother to India...and yet years later the idea that Kali is evil persists.

I even have a mythology game that even makes Shiva into an evil power, and I can't tell you how offensive that is. The closest equivalent would be saying Jesus works for the devil, and some Hindus I have met are very offended. This sort of thing very rarely is looked into and instead of introducing us to new cultures it paints a culture inappropriately. Of course to be fair we do it with our own history as well, from the founding Fathers to the Old West. But still not nearly as offensive.

Certain cultures are more susceptible to this than others. And those particular cultures, like us do the same. For example many Samurais practiced pederasty which Japan rarely shows. But if you do change cultural history...it is best to follow how that culture does so. We like to glamorize and change other cultures in a way that usually paints them incorrectly and very offensively...Indiana Jones. And the poster must worry about something being done AGAIN to his culture, which is a very valid point.


That said, I would love to see other cultures in a fantasy light, as long as they were not offensive to those cultures... Which so far they have not. Except maybe a bit the Qunari XD

[esper]

@karushna5, that is not other cultures problem, that is myth in general.

And why is Hades always an evil god (Thank a lot Disney, I blame this one on you), he was pretty neutral in most of the greek myths with the properly worst offense being a kidnapping (which compared to the other 'good' gods is little offensive, a least he married the woman).

It is not a matter of changing foreign myth, it is a matter of taken any myth, finding an aspect which sounds cool, spinning an story around that aspect and then finding any other (often deity) which can be bludgeonen into a villain. it is just a matter of story telling.

edit, it is not so much your point as your example. Indiana Jones and evil Kali, not good example.

Modifié par esper, 26 février 2013 - 07:18 .

[karushna5]

Bad story telling, especially since there is so many others to choose from to be villains, we want someone to be a villain because it makes sense to our culture. Hades is a villain because he rules the underworld like the Devil, you could have made tons and tons of villains in Greek Mythology but you chose the person who wasn't. As I said it would be like showing Jesus as the Devil and really evil, why be that offensive when you already have a devil?

Indiana Jones could have villainized Ravana, evil kings, demons, Naga, rakshasa, Mara, but they chose someone beloved to a long group of people in a manner that has hurt Western understanding of India for a long time. Disney want the first to make Hades evil, but why not the Titans, monsters of every type, Gaia, the giants, or even the people who actually rebelled against Zeus, like Apollo. Or a God that Hercules almost killed like Ares? I understand that mistake more because no one worships them on the most part, other mistakes with real cultures is disastrous, and very insulting.

It would be like if the French always portrayed Americans as unintelligent cowboys, who are silly, and have to always be saved by A Frenchman because they are so dim witted, time and again. The French don't do that but still it would be insulting.

[ShadyKat]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

ShadyKat wrote...
Most people are scared of change, so anything outside of the norm is a no-no. Gotta keep the same old generic fantasy setting that has been done a million times before.

That setting sells more copies of a game. Every now and then you get something like Fallout, which is very successful while offering a very unique experience and setting. But if I recall correctly, Jade Empire didn't sell as well as Bioware had hoped. I imagine that's why we still haven't gotten a sequel. Dragon Age is much easier for the North American audience to digest. It's familiar to anyone who's played RPG's before and anyone who's seen LOTR.

As I said, most people don't like change. Thus the fans that would like to see something a bit different, often times gets screwed over.