283 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

karushna5 wrote...

Bad story telling, especially since there is so many others to choose from to be villains, we want someone to be a villain because it makes sense to our culture. Hades is a villain because he rules the underworld like the Devil, you could have made tons and tons of villains in Greek Mythology but you chose the person who wasn't. As I said it would be like showing Jesus as the Devil and really evil, why be that offensive when you already have a devil?

Indiana Jones could have villainized Ravana, evil kings, demons, Naga, rakshasa, Mara, but they chose someone beloved to a long group of people in a manner that has hurt Western understanding of India for a long time. Disney want the first to make Hades evil, but why not the Titans, monsters of every type, Gaia, the giants, or even the people who actually rebelled against Zeus, like Apollo. Or a God that Hercules almost killed like Ares? I understand that mistake more because no one worships them on the most part, other mistakes with real cultures is disastrous, and very insulting.

It would be like if the French always portrayed Americans as unintelligent cowboys, who are silly, and have to always be saved by A Frenchman because they are so dim witted, time and again. The French don't do that but still it would be insulting.

Uhmm.... that does happens. A LOT. Do you know how Eurpopeans speak of Americans and show them in their narratives.. Idiotic cowboys is a one of the more positive views (and vice versa, do you know how the American sterotypes the frenchmen?).


Hades is not a Devil analogy at all. The similary between Hades and the Devil is non-existant as the Devil in christanity is not the ruler of the death. The realm of the death is not equal to an hell. It is just as bad as making Kali evil.

In the Hercules myth the antagonist is Hera, who HATES Hercules and then we are not even getting into Hercules killing Megara (and their children) at the start of the story and being accidentially killed by his second wife (who I don't even think is shown in Disney's version). Generally Disney **** that story up (Though they did include the Giants, I think Hades wanted to free them as I remember the movie, so the second most obvious villains were chosen too). Which is not suprising, it is Disney itis expected from them. (Basically I am more angry at the Huncback of Notredame, and the Junglebook, espically the latter which I enjoyed as a kid (the actual book))

It is much worse with Troja and other live action movices which is not just aimed at children.

The thing is, this is not a foreing culture problem, it is a problem with any thing which built on older works, be it myth, fairy tales, folks songs, religions... any thing. It is not bad story telling in it self, it first becomes a problem when it is not made clear that it is 'loosely' based on the original work.

No one can take an Indiana Jones movie serious anymore than a Disney movie and believe that it stays true to the source material. Now I know that some people do think that is stays true to the myth, but honestly I do believe that now adays those a few and far between, much, much worse is it when actual living people are sterotypeded: Such as all practioners of non-abraham religions being blood sacrificing evil cult members(regardless of who the deitiess are), all asian being kung fu masters, all americans being cowboys, all french/europeans being bi or gay...

On fortunately all those stereotypes lives on and is much worse than butchering some myth for a new story which may or may not be good.

Modifié par esper, 26 février 2013 - 08:25 .

[Yumichika]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Eleinehmn: I find the use of other cultures a celebration of a wider perception of the world... any response I've given has actually been more of a blindsided reaction to what seems to be a request for isolation. 

As a little aside - United States citizens tend toward (it is not a generalization - it is not all encompassing - but it is my experience as an American. I'm also not saying it is only Americans - for those fellow citizens who think I'm attacking the U.S. people here) isolation when it comes to exposure to the world. I feel it very important to destroy that lack of exposure - and if a medium like video games can help do that... I want to see more of it.

 
Well u write it better than me (talking about english wich is my fourth language. Anyway i tried to say the same thing as u did Medhia Nox, but with different words. So thank u!

karushna5 wrote...

Certain cultures are more susceptible to this than others. And those particular cultures, like us do the same. For example many Samurais practiced pederasty which Japan rarely shows. But if you do change cultural history...it is best to follow how that culture does so. We like to glamorize and change other cultures in a way that usually paints them incorrectly and very offensively...Indiana Jones. And the poster must worry about something being done AGAIN to his culture, which is a very valid point.

When it comes to religion and culture, some people don't try to be gentle with devellopers, specially knowing that those who most make waves and noise are not the players themselves. I remember of some strange and unbielivable stories, but the point is what i noticed, and i agree with u the misunderstanding and stereotypes is still taking a huge part in people minds.  Talking about fantasy it would be very nice if they can transform it and take what is the best. The exemple u gave about samourai is based on energy so they only do have sex with other male and between the elders/masters and the young samourais. They considered having sex with women a way to loose the positive energy that help them to fight.

To me Ethnicity and culture are very different and Dragon age if it comes to culture have a lot to take from worldwide.
 I'll conclude this post with what Medhia Nox said : " I feel it very important to destroy that lack of exposure - and if a medium like video games can help do that... I want to see more of it."

[Zerker]

karushna5 wrote...
Which so far they have not. Except maybe a bit the Qunari XD

As far as I've observed, Qunari are based on Seljuk Khanate and Ottoman Empire, yet neither I nor anyone I talked to in Turkish gaming conventions were offended by it. We are rather amazed by the similarities and how nicely those similarities were processed in the game, Qunari are a constant source of amusement and chitchat in our gaming community.

Modifié par Maddok900, 26 février 2013 - 08:33 .

[shootist70]

Tolkien himself fell into the many pitfalls surrounding cultural portrayal in fantasy.

Scimitar-wielding, dark skinned men from the desert, besieging a high-walled city full of mail clad, beard wearing, christian-esque heroes. They only just stopped short of screaming 'infidel!!', and marched with various other races who were all evilly 'eastern'.

It was a bit of a cliche even in Tolkien's time, and has caused a few accusations of racism, or clumsy racial portrayal, then and since.

[karushna5]

I agree about Hades, but I am saying that the reason people made him bad is that there is a devil resemblance in that he presides over the evil dead in Tartarus and many Western depictions of him only show that part, equating him with the devil, when he rarely is.

Problem is those things are less insulting because they are depicting old things as...old and rarely are those things a modern thing but with modern cultures and modern religions it becomes more problematic, depict Hades wrong and it is being hard to an old myth. But the same toward Hinduism means you are insulting a very active religion, and people. You call it myth, but they call it belief and to show it in such a bad light is incredibly offensive as I said the equivalent of showing Jesus conniving for people's souls. A very bad image.

and sadly many people's only introduction to Hinduism is the Indiana Jones movies and for good or bad people judge it by that. I agree that the stereotypes of the people are just as bad, but insulting their religion is as much a cultural thing to and is equivalent and in some people from India much worse, but old religions not practiced I agree not nearly as insulting.

[esper]

karushna5 wrote...

I agree about Hades, but I am saying that the reason people made him bad is that there is a devil resemblance in that he presides over the evil dead in Tartarus and many Western depictions of him only show that part, equating him with the devil, when he rarely is.

Problem is those things are less insulting because they are depicting old things as...old and rarely are those things a modern thing but with modern cultures and modern religions it becomes more problematic, depict Hades wrong and it is being hard to an old myth. But the same toward Hinduism means you are insulting a very active religion, and people. You call it myth, but they call it belief and to show it in such a bad light is incredibly offensive as I said the equivalent of showing Jesus conniving for people's souls. A very bad image.

and sadly many people's only introduction to Hinduism is the Indiana Jones movies and for good or bad people judge it by that. I agree that the stereotypes of the people are just as bad, but insulting their religion is as much a cultural thing to and is equivalent and in some people from India much worse, but old religions not practiced I agree not nearly as insulting.

Hades precedes over the Dead, there is no 'evil' dead, just another part of the realm Elysium for those who happens to be a heroes of some sort (simplified a bit, as many version of how the Real of Death is divived in greek mythology varies from author to author and then we are keeping the Romans version of it completely out of it). The rest of the death are just ordinary, so if you make the comparision then you basically says Ordinary person = evil.

There are plenty of movies today presenting christanity or any of the 'abraham religions',in a less than positive light. It are myths... even if there are people living today who believes in them. All religions are.

You may not believe it, but livinging in Denmark I know people who has 'asetro' which basically means that they claim to believe in the same things as the Vikings did, now they are a minority compared to the people believing in Hinduism in the India (and here I am talking percent of people of the country believing in the faith). I bet you can find a handfull of people in Greece believing in the old gods.

There is nothing wrong with taking a myth and distorting it to fit a story as long as it you know that that is what you are doing and the show makes it clear. If anything an entertaining story would make people search of the source material.

It is much worse when the practitioners of those religions gets constantly steroptypes, because unlike religious work where interest/curiosity can make you read the source material or some fair translation and discover that, hey Kali is not an evil deity, steorotyping the practioners will colour how you approach said people in real life which can be fatal.

[karushna5]

I feel this has become more than just an arguement just back and forth, I don't want to insult anyone. But there is a place in Hades where evil dead are punished, such as the man who constantly pushes a rock uphill, or can never drink or eat, a place in Greece to punish the dead who were bad people in life, I feel the Westernized version of Hades portrays this as Hell and makes him the Devil...I do not.

there we agree to disagree, and I don't think I can convince you that a distorted look at religion is much more insulting when you believe it and feelings on that account matter, regardless I am sure the poster feels the stereotypes of people, and specifically their culture

[LobselVith8]

legbamel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

There is no Asia in Dragon Age, nor should there be. The universe is an allegory of medieval Europe.

Why shouldn't there be? We see the Spanish influence with Antivans, and the dark skinned denizens of the kingdom of Rivain who clearly aren't European at all.

  Have you never been to the Mediterranean, which is bordered along much of it's north shore by Europe?  There are plenty of darker-skinned Europeans out there.  [This is, of course, ignoring Isabela's Fereldan accent, which I presume is not what you meant.] 

Which doesn't change the fact that Duncan doesn't look Mediterranean to me in the least. It's also a kingdom where they have seers who allow spirits to become one with them and many of the people follow the Natural Order.

[Yumichika]

Don't u think the name should be revisited too? Duncan to me is the mediterranean type but he does not have any colorful name tha make u think he is from a different place, same goes to half of the characters, even in the mediaval europe, spanish, french, german, british, norvegean name was not alike each other. Except Elven and dwarves names!

[FieryDove]

Yumichika wrote...

Don't u think the name should be revisited too? Duncan to me is the mediterranean type but he does not have any colorful name tha make u think he is from a different place, same goes to half of the characters, even in the mediaval europe, spanish, french, german, british, norvegean name was not alike each other. Except Elven and dwarves names!

Well Duncan was born in highever or grew up there yes?

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

What is this thread about now?

No idea to be honest.

[HiroVoid]

Eh. While I wouldn't mind variation in races/ethnicities, if we start seeing people from other entire nations, I'd rather they be new and completely different races than different ethnic humans myself. I still await the rise of the mudmen.

[RetroActiv]

I've wanted this this Origins. it would be a real shame if we didn't finally start to see this in DAIII

[Plaintiff]

It's a little bit concerning, I think, that some people in this thread would prefer to see completely fantastic non-human races than simply a different ethnicity.

[imbs]

I, personally, am hoping for an all-white-male cast. Preferably in cheap business suits.

[gw2005]

LinksOcarina wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

What is this thread about now?

No idea to be honest.

I think I started the tread asking for other, non eurocentric cultures/cultural influences to be represented.

[laudable11]

David Gaider wrote...

Four things:

1) Thedas is not Europe. It's vaguely based on medieval Europe-- and, while I can see why some people would like more fantasy based on things other than medieval Europe (and I approve-- heck, we did Jade Empire after all), it is and the setting is already created. Making direct comparisons to "it was like this in European history", however, and trying to say that means it should also be like this in Thedas is not going to hold much weight. Dragon Age is not a historical simulation.

2) That said, there were black people in Europe. Depending on which era you look at, in fact, there were potentially a lot of them. Thedas also has Rivain, which is roughly analogous to medieval Spain... but I wouldn't try to stretch the comparison too hard.

3) We've said previously that we'd like to have more ethnic variation in Dragon Age. Our previous engine couldn't do very dark skin tones very well, but with that fact changed it's something we'd like to include. Rivain does exist, like I said, and while they're not the most populous country their people are not exactly barred into their cities. We're going to include them where they make sense, and thankfully there are indeed places where they make sense. It's perfectly reasonable for people to ask for more of this-- it's not about "political correctness" so much as not making the default white in every single instance just because nobody thought it could maybe be otherwise.

4) All that said, trying to squeeze every real-world ethnicity onto one continent simply isn't going to happen. There are, however, places in Dragon Age other than the continent of Thedas... should we ever go to those places, one should expect to see other sorts of people there. And there's nothing stopping the occasional traveler from far away coming into the game for plot reasons, though that's going to be exceptional simply because traffic between the continents is not exactly great. If it was, you'd expect people to be talking about "the lands beyond Thedas" a trifle more, wouldn't you? That could, however, always change.

How people look in the game is really more the Art department's province than Writing's, but we have input on the subject (and a degree of influence over the context). Ultimately this is something you're simply going to have to wait and see on, and we'll show what we mean. Beyond that, however, like I said above there's really no reason to slam anyone who asks for more representation in fantasy. It's a big place.

Thank you!  

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which doesn't change the fact that Duncan doesn't look Mediterranean to me in the least. It's also a kingdom where they have seers who allow spirits to become one with them and many of the people follow the Natural Order.

Isn't Duncan half Ferelden or something?

[SmokePants]

If there's one thing DA doesn't need, it's more cultures to keep straight.

[lil yonce]

Since Thedas has a black race, I would to see more black characters. I like Isabela, she has great depth and complexity, but the first black companion rejecting their culture rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not satisifed with that. I want to see more Rivani.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 03 mars 2013 - 10:19 .

[New Display Name]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Since Thedas has a black race, I would to see more black characters. I like Isabela, she has great depth and complexity, but the first black companion rejecting their culture rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not satisifed with that. I want to see more Rivani.

But it's not black culture, it's Rivani culture.
Also there have been a number of "black" characters in Bioware games that I would not say "rejected" their culture.

[lil yonce]

HJF4 wrote...

But it's not black culture, it's Rivani culture.

I didn't claim the Riviani culture was an IRL black culture.

Also there have been a number of "black" characters in Bioware games that I would not say "rejected" their culture. 

I'm not certain who you're referring to exactly.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Since Thedas has a black race, I would to see more black characters.

Since when was Isabela black?

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 03 mars 2013 - 11:11 .

[BouncyFrag]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
Since Thedas has a black race, I would to see more black characters.

Since when was Isabela black?

I figured she had just gotten a dark tan on the open sea since we had played cards with her in DA:O.