283 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
Since Thedas has a black race, I would to see more black characters.

Since when was Isabela black?

She's Rivani. The Rivani are black.

David Gaider wrote...

There are indeed black people in Thedas-- the Rivaini have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 03 mars 2013 - 11:25 .

[PinkDiamondstl]

a12boom wrote...

Androme wrote...

a12boom wrote...

Africa's current culture is participating in white genocide in the south region of the continent, killing each other in Rwanda, and forcing people to submit to Islam...no thank you. But if you meant fesitivals, armor, architecture...not much, really. Asian culture is much more my style.

I would prefer if we stuck with Orlais and the Tevinter Imperium then move up the map.

This

I hope my post doesn't get deleted.

^
Ban this guy 

[Lennard Testarossa]

Youth4Ever wrote...
She's Rivani. The Rivani are black.

Having dark skin doesn't make you black. Latinos can have pretty dark skin. Isabela, for one, doesn't look black at all.

[King Cousland]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
Since Thedas has a black race, I would to see more black characters.

Since when was Isabela black?

She's Rivani. The Rivani are black.

David Gaider wrote...

There are indeed black people in Thedas-- the Rivaini have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony.

Yes, ranging being the operative word. I'd say that Isabela certainly falls into the "lighter" side of the spectrum for the Rivaini. 

[lil yonce]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
She's Rivani. The Rivani are black.

Having dark skin doesn't make you black. Latinos can have pretty dark skin. Isabela, for one, doesn't look black at all.

Her skin color was a limitation of the engine. She's Rivani and the Rivani are black. Her real name is Naishe. She adopted Isabela after leaving Rivain and joining the Felicisima Armada.

[lil yonce]

King Cousland wrote...

Yes, ranging being the operative word. I'd say that Isabela certainly falls into the "lighter" side of the spectrum for the Rivaini. 

I fall into the "lighter" side of the black race IRL. I'm still black.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 03 mars 2013 - 11:55 .

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Her skin color was a limitation of the engine. She's Rivani and the Rivani are black. Her real name is Naishe. She adopted Isabela after leaving Rivain and joining the Felicisima Armada.

I don't think you can conclusively state what Isabela's skin color is unless she shows up in DA3, which will be able to render skin color a lot better. David Gaider said ranging from dark tan to ebony. Isabela could just as easily have been meant to have a dark tan skin color originally and there was never an in-game limitation.

To assume that because the skin color limitation is true for how the devs wanted to portray other Rivaini automatically also applies to Isabela wouldn't be accurate.

Now, it may turn out that yes she was meant to be black and if she appears in DA3 she'll be such. But to assume such at this point in time doesn't seem to be a correct course of action.

EDIT: Although DG's post does seem to say the Rivaini are all black with varying skin tones. Then again, could it not also mean that some/most of the Rivaini people are black? Saying "There are indeed black people in Thedas" doesn't automatically say "All of the denizens of X are black", but it doesn't necessarily say otherwise either.

So in short.... meh.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mars 2013 - 12:05 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Her skin color was a limitation of the engine. She's Rivani and the Rivani are black.

Black people existing in Rivain does not equal all Rivaini being black. And it's not just her skin color, just look at her hair. I doubt they got hair straighteners in Thedas.

[lil yonce]

This information about Isabela may be found elsewhere, but from From Comic-Con 2012: Creating Spaces For Diverse Characters, Isabela is black. Start at 22:30.

David Gaider -- "One of the most popular downloaded mods from DA2 as I recall was a mod to change our one black female character, Isabela..."

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[Snip]

To assume that because the skin color limitation is true for how the devs wanted to portray other Rivaini automatically also applies to Isabela wouldn't be accurate.

I don't mean to say that her dusky skin tone was not accurate. I mean to say that her apperance as a deeply tanned white woman and not a lighter skinned black woman is a result of an engine limitation. The engine couldn't exactly differentiate.

EDIT: Although DG's post does seem to say the Rivaini are all black with varying skin tones. Then again, could it not also mean that some/most of the Rivaini people are black? Saying "There are indeed black people in Thedas" doesn't automatically say "All of the denizens of X are black", but it doesn't necessarily say otherwise either.

So in short.... meh.

I've never received the impression that the ethnically Rivani are anything but black.

[Boiny Bunny]

Does it really matter that much? Does every single video game IP need to be packed full of representatives of every possible real world culture/race?

Jade Empire worked beautifully without including any references to European culture (bar one incident with a single character, which was more of a joke than anything else) - I don't see why Thedas, a world based entirely off medieval European culture, needs to have any non medieval-European influence inserted into it.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Youth4Ever wrote...
David Gaider -- "One of the most popular downloaded mods from DA2 as I recall was a mod to change our one black female character, Isabela..."

Her skin is rather light, her hair is pretty much straight, her facial features aren't clearly black either. Maybe David Gaider wanted her to be black, but it's not what the art department made her.

Youth4Ever wrote...
I've never received the impression that the ethnically Rivani are anything but black.

Rivain isn't overly separated from the rest of Thedas. Shouldn't there be a lot of people there who are somewhere in between?

[lil yonce]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Her skin is rather light, her hair is pretty much straight, her facial features aren't clearly black either. Maybe David Gaider wanted her to be black, but it's not what the art department made her.

Engine limitations. It didn't support black features. They had to work around it. The new engine is supposed to be much improved in this regard. Her design may have been intentional (straight hair etc) but I don't think it was intentional that the audience confuse her for a white woman.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 04 mars 2013 - 03:12 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Her design may have been intentional (straight hair etc) but I don't think it was intentional that the audience confuse her for a white woman.

I personally thought she was supposed to be Latino.

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

David Gaider -- "One of the most popular downloaded mods from DA2 as I recall was a mod to change our one black female character, Isabela..."

Good enough for me.

Although I must say I much like her dusky tan look. If she changed to having a different skin tone, I can't say I'd like it. Not because of what it would have been changed to in a bad way, but just because I'm used to DAII Isabela and I like how she looks there.

[Plaintiff]

While the Rivaini people may have "black" skin tones, that doesn't mean that they're intended to be analogous to Africans or any other particular dark-skinned people in our own world. Indeed, I was under the impression that inspiration for Rivain and its people was drawn from a number of sources.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 mars 2013 - 01:27 .

[Silfren]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I think it was Mike Ladilaw ( or Gaider), that already said there will be no such thing - no asian, african or indian influence. He explain this, that they created a world very closely based off the medieval Europe, and such influences wouldn't fit the setting.

Then they need to go back and do their research, because Medieval Europed was not Whites Only culture.  This a myth propagated largely by people at best too lazy to accept responsibility for whitewashing that results from privilege and choosing to grasp for a cop-out rather than correcting their ignorance, and at worst looking for a justification for racist whitewashing.

[Silfren]

soignee wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And there's a vast difference between co-opting ethnic art to make lingerie, which you then market as an "Exotic Eastern Experience", and taking some aspects of different real cultures and cobbling them together to make an entirely new, entirely fictional culture for your fantasy world.

I linked because Victoria's Secret have the most slapped wrists for this level of apropriation recently, and there's a store in every American town usually. How about some Dior then? They're a couture house, and have been for a long time. Have some vintage "at the height of his career" Galliano cherry picking native clothing for his collection. This collection is pretty reknown as classic Galliano, what he's famous/good at. Everyone recalls it, usually, when they mention past collections. To some, as the author of the link states, it's still perpetuatiing a stereotype and harming a culture while doing so.

I'm still using fashion as an example, but I'd argue that world builders in fantasy stories and video games do the same level of cherry picking, taking from myth and culture for their world building, as it suits them. Tropes and stereotypes are dutifully marched out, without being realised, because it's the quickest way to get to a point in a story.  

As an example, World of Warcraft shamelessly plunders from world cultures -Thrall is the epitome of noble savage, as well as that of taurens, trolls, tuskarr, gorlocks... I'd argue that it's predominately white settings first for the heroes in much loved fantasy and sci fi stories also - Tolkien, Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, A Song of Ice and Fire, Dune, Ender's Game and even Discworld, then cherry picked myths and cultures from non white/european myth for "other," including monster/bad guy cultures.

I agree that non white euro fantasy setting would be great, just the current formula as it stands means it's just going to be cherry picking, no depth. Futher DA installments with a non white and non european myth setting? Awesome. Bring it.

If cultural appropriation is what you're afraid of, then one very easy way to solve the problem would be to bring in writers and artists for Bioware from a variety of ethnic backgrounds.  And really, this ought to be the case regardless.  There's no reason to continue the trend of gaming companies being predominantly white males.  Frankly, I think we would see an automatic departure from this insistence on whitewashing if more gaming companies were much more diverse. 

[Nightdragon8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Her skin is rather light, her hair is pretty much straight, her facial features aren't clearly black either. Maybe David Gaider wanted her to be black, but it's not what the art department made her.

Engine limitations. It didn't support black features. They had to work within those limitations. The new engine is supposed to be much improved in this regard. Her design may have been intentional (straight hair etc) but I don't think it was intentional that the audience confuse her for a white woman.

yea engine limitation it can handle people with long horns on there head but not African feachers

I sort of figured it was more of a spaniard kind of thing.

hard to say without hearing it from the horses mouth what was really intended

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 04 mars 2013 - 03:09 .

[Heimdall]

I always thought Rivaini were swarthy Mediterranean European analogues.

And Isabella's skin color isn't a limitation of the engine. In the comics her skin, as well as that of every Rivaini in her home village flashback, is the same shade.

[imbs]

Silfren wrote...

If cultural appropriation is what you're afraid of, then one very easy way to solve the problem would be to bring in writers and artists for Bioware from a variety of ethnic backgrounds.  And really, this ought to be the case regardless.  There's no reason to continue the trend of gaming companies being predominantly white males.  Frankly, I think we would see an automatic departure from this insistence on whitewashing if more gaming companies were much more diverse. 

I am confused. What does ethnicity or race have to do with ability to draw people of different ethnicity or race?

[Daerog]

I've just skimmed some posts here and there. All I can think of is "Was there this much complaining and criticism when Jade Empire was released? Or is it just because this setting of Caucasian Europeans is used a lot and people are bored of it and want to change things by getting on a soap box?"

Different fantasy settings with influences of different cultures is great, and adding different visuals of people is also great. It's not necessary to have every possible culture or appearance of people represented, as the goal is to tell a story, not to throw in a bunch of token cultures and characters just for the sake of having them, which happens way too much anyway.

Just my quick opinion on the matter. If the story calls for it, or if it is added to bring some more depth (viewpoints, drama, commentary, give culture shock to characters) to the world, then go for it, adding it just to add it would be borderline insulting. I'm just talking about the world, though, Character Creator can do whatever it wants, it could allow characters to have demon wings, viper tails, and two heads, as that is all about the player.

My opinion could change later, this is just my current thought.

[Plaintiff]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

I've just skimmed some posts here and there. All I can think of is "Was there this much complaining and criticism when Jade Empire was released? Or is it just because this setting of Caucasian Europeans is used a lot and people are bored of it and want to change things by getting on a soap box?"

Different fantasy settings with influences of different cultures is great, and adding different visuals of people is also great. It's not necessary to have every possible culture or appearance of people represented, as the goal is to tell a story, not to throw in a bunch of token cultures and characters just for the sake of having them, which happens way too much anyway.

Just my quick opinion on the matter. If the story calls for it, or if it is added to bring some more depth (viewpoints, drama, commentary, give culture shock to characters) to the world, then go for it, adding it just to add it would be borderline insulting. I'm just talking about the world, though, Character Creator can do whatever it wants, it could allow characters to have demon wings, viper tails, and two heads, as that is all about the player.

My opinion could change later, this is just my current thought.

So basically, if you want to have minority characters, you must have racial politics or be making some other sort of race-related point? You can't just have them because you want them?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 mars 2013 - 05:50 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Plaintiff wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

I've just skimmed some posts here and there. All I can think of is "Was there this much complaining and criticism when Jade Empire was released? Or is it just because this setting of Caucasian Europeans is used a lot and people are bored of it and want to change things by getting on a soap box?"

Different fantasy settings with influences of different cultures is great, and adding different visuals of people is also great. It's not necessary to have every possible culture or appearance of people represented, as the goal is to tell a story, not to throw in a bunch of token cultures and characters just for the sake of having them, which happens way too much anyway.

Just my quick opinion on the matter. If the story calls for it, or if it is added to bring some more depth (viewpoints, drama, commentary, give culture shock to characters) to the world, then go for it, adding it just to add it would be borderline insulting. I'm just talking about the world, though, Character Creator can do whatever it wants, it could allow characters to have demon wings, viper tails, and two heads, as that is all about the player.

My opinion could change later, this is just my current thought.

So basically, if you want to have minority characters, you must have racial politics or be making some other sort of race-related point? You can't just have them because you want them?

I believe he is attempting to say that adding a particular race/culture to the game for only real-world political reasons is not a good thing.  If that particular race/culture happens to fit nicely into the already established mythology of the game world, and there is a rather good idea on what to do with that race/culture should it be added, then fantastic - add them.

European culture is technically a canonical (albeit minor) part of the Jade Empire universe (referenced through a brief encounter with a single character), but the game avoids using it beyond a quick joke, because it would only weaken the strong vision and style of that IP.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 04 mars 2013 - 06:00 .

[Daerog]

Plaintiff wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

I've just skimmed some posts here and there. All I can think of is "Was there this much complaining and criticism when Jade Empire was released? Or is it just because this setting of Caucasian Europeans is used a lot and people are bored of it and want to change things by getting on a soap box?"

Different fantasy settings with influences of different cultures is great, and adding different visuals of people is also great. It's not necessary to have every possible culture or appearance of people represented, as the goal is to tell a story, not to throw in a bunch of token cultures and characters just for the sake of having them, which happens way too much anyway.

Just my quick opinion on the matter. If the story calls for it, or if it is added to bring some more depth (viewpoints, drama, commentary, give culture shock to characters) to the world, then go for it, adding it just to add it would be borderline insulting. I'm just talking about the world, though, Character Creator can do whatever it wants, it could allow characters to have demon wings, viper tails, and two heads, as that is all about the player.

My opinion could change later, this is just my current thought.

So basically, if you want to have minority characters, you must have racial politics? Why?

What do you mean? Do you mean real world minorities or the fantasy world's minorities? If the fantasy world has minorities, then it'll likely have social issues involved, like with elves and humans in all fantasy stories, from Tolkien to Dragon Age. If there are different cultures, there will be trade and different architecture and different views of the world that are shared with the characters to add more depth to the story.

I'm not meaning anything by skin tones, as they can be treated as different colors of hair and have no meaning towards a person's culture or background or anything. I'm not saying that a story shouldn't have a Captain Planet team, but only if the rest of the people in that culture/society they are in are like that, or the different people would be like token characters if their uniqueness goes unnoticed by everyone except the audience. If there is only one two headed elf in a society of three headed elves, it would be odd if it was never commented on.

I'm all for stories with a wide variety of peoples, but it shouldn't be such a negative if only a single culture is shown in a story that sticks to one area of the world, like with Jade Empire or Dragon Age. If they throw in a culture of blue fairies into DA, it would be odd if no body took notice to it, and if BioWare wishes to represent more real world stuff, then fine, but do it in a meaningful way and not in a lazy, do it just to do it, way, like having a giant Aztec pyramid appear in the middle of Thedas, whose inhabitants are all about ancient Aztec culture, and have them mingle with Andrastians like no one recognizes the uniqueness and beauty of their different culture.

I could be completely wrong and evil in my way of thinking without realizing it, it s late, and if someone wishes to correct me, I welcome the criticism.