180 réponses à ce sujet

[CptPatch]

If you haven't played all the way through at least once, you may want to skip this until later.

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Okay, you had your chance to leave.

Why does Flemeth want to get Morrigan pregnant by a Warden?

Because when the archdemon dies the Old God soul goes to the fetus.

Which grows into a daughter that Flemeth (or Morrigan, if Flemeth is dead) will eventually occupy and take over at a later date.

A host with all the raw power of an Old God, totally controled by Flemeth (or Morrigan)

Imagine how difficult it would be to stop the current archdemon if it thought like Flemeth or Morrigan.  With centuries and centuries worth of spells at it's disposal.

Beating the current archdemon is bad enough, and it only really has a couple of spells to summon.  Imagine how hard it would be to defeat if it used EVERY spell in the book (and about a hundred other spells we've never seen). 

Imagine a Blight that fights intelligently instead of relying only on numbers and brute force.  And an archdemon that was NOT so obvious, able to slip into the background and overlooked if the need arose.

And then recall Morrigan's views on power and her contempt for all people.

Morrigan's child will grow to be the next Flemeth (or Morrigan), with the power of an Old God.

The next Blight promises to be sooner than anyone ever expected.  And it WILL easily be at least ten times worse than the one just ended.

All we're waiting for is little Morrigan Junioress to grow up.

[Elessara]

Why would it be a Blight? If you believe Morrigan (and regarding the ritual at this point I have no reason not to believe her) she wants the *untainted* soul of an old god. Would the darkspawn follow an untainted version?



But ok .. is the power of the old god tied to it's soul or it's physical form? If the power is tied to the soul then taking over the body wouldn't really do them any good right? Because to take over the body they have to first kick out the current soul. Which just leaves them where they started - no old god soul to play with.

[Rock Mu]

The problem with your theory is that it isn't really clear whether an Old God free from the taint would have the same motivations as an Archdemon (a tainted old god). Another thing is; Why would Morrigan or Flemmeth want to cause a blight? If either of them managed to possess the body of that child and retain it's power, it would make more sense for them to attempt to control everything & not destroy everything.

Also shouldn't this go in the story disscusion forum?

Modifié par Rock Mu, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:03 .

[GeorgeZip]

The blood of Morrigan and Flemeth (as a grandma) will be in the god baby, so they would likely have some influence on it. It won't be tainted by darkspawn but will be by whatever Flemeth and Morrigan are.

[1Parmenides]

That, and you asume that the archdemon isn't intelligent.

[Elessara]

I'm pretty sure they're human. Flemeth might be an ancient abomination but her body would still be human. Remember, according to Morrigan, Flemeth goes around possessing the bodies of her "daughters". And we're not really sure (or at least I'm not really sure) that Flemeth is actually Morrigan's birth mother.

[CptPatch]

1. Can you believe Morrigan on this subject? Remember that it has been her intention all along, from her departure from Flemeth's hut up until the night before battle, she had not mentioned the option of the ritual. How could the fetus NOT be tainted, since it was the tainted blood in the fetus that attracts the Old God's soul at the crucial moment?

2. SPOILER. Even if Morrigan's Approval of you is 100 (Love), if you refuse to let her get impregnated by you or Alistair, she will leave that night, abandoning you (the person she supposedly loves) right when you will need her the most for the coming battle. Apparently, if you don't give her what she wants, she has no further use for you.

3. In several places they speak of what happens to the Old God soul if it wasn't a Warden that kills it. It transfers to the nearest darkspawn-blooded creature. Eventually it works it's way back into a dragon body as it transfers around. If it transfers into the fetus, it probably becomes the mother's prisoner (if that mother knows what is going on and has enough power of her own). Whatever the reason, _Morrigan_ believes she would take command of the Old God soul and bend it to her bidding.

4. When Morrigan got her hands on the Black Grimoire she explains that in it it says that the more powerful the host, the "easier it is for her to settle in". The general impression I got was that the more powerful the host, the more powerful Flemeth/Morrigan would be.



I _really_ get the impression that the ultimate goal is eventually harness all that power and then to start a campaign to make the entire world bend knee to the all-powerful Morrigan. (Putting her inferiority complex to rest once and for all.)

[StayPuftGiant]

If the Old God baby starts the ultimate blight, theoretically every person will die, and if everyone dies that leaves no one to have a baby with. With no baby, Flemeth/Morrigan have no future. I personally feel that Morrigan will be so in love with the PC that she would be able to be persuaded to use the baby for good... but that's just me.

[CptPatch]

StayPuftGiant wrote...

If the Old God baby starts the ultimate blight, theoretically every person will die, and if everyone dies that leaves no one to have a baby with. With no baby, Flemeth/Morrigan have no future. I personally feel that Morrigan will be so in love with the PC that she would be able to be persuaded to use the baby for good... but that's just me.

See the SPOILER in Point #2 above.

I'm wondering if the body occupied by the Old God becomes immortal.

The Blight does NOT kill all Life.  The darkspawn still continue to multiply.  (Can't imagine wanting to live in the body of a darkspawn, but Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and Morrigan has already stated that she doesn't care about beauty; only power.)

[soteria]

1. Can you believe Morrigan on this subject? Remember that it has been her intention all along, from her departure from Flemeth's hut up until the night before battle, she had not mentioned the option of the ritual. How could the fetus NOT be tainted, since it was the tainted blood in the fetus that attracts the Old God's soul at the crucial moment?

We don't know enough about Grey Wardens and the taint to say what the nature of the taint in the baby would be. As far as I know, we don't even know what the nature of a child of a Grey Warden would normally be, without the ritual. Saying that tainted = darkspawn and future Archdemon is a leap, though, since Grey Wardens are obviously not darkspawn, and carry the taint.

2. SPOILER. Even if Morrigan's Approval of you is 100 (Love), if you refuse to let her get impregnated by you or Alistair, she will leave that night, abandoning you (the person she supposedly loves) right when you will need her the most for the coming battle. Apparently, if you don't give her what she wants, she has no further use for you.

...and? Morrigan doesn't hate all people; not even close. She despises people that are too weak to help themselves. She doesn't understand or respect people who turn down opportunities to become more powerful, and certainly doesn't tolerate anyone who gets in her way. And, you know, Morrigan wouldn't be the first person to leave a lover that refused to satisfy their greatest desire.



Morrigan wanting to use the baby to become more powerful is hardly a shocking revelation, but there's no real evidence that she plans to do it by bringing about another Blight.

[soteria]

The Blight does NOT kill all Life. The darkspawn still continue to multiply. (Can't imagine wanting to live in the body of a darkspawn, but Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and Morrigan has already stated that she doesn't care about beauty; only power.)

I'm guessing you don't like Morrigan, and haven't followed her dialogues very closely? Because she definitely cares a lot about beauty. Her second "special" gift is a mirror. Her regular gifts are jewelry. She definitely cares about beauty--she's a bit vain, in fact.

[Elessara]

Just to touch on a point. When an archdemon is killed by a non-grey warden the soul will jump to the nearest darkspawn. I always assumed (and I'm not sure why) that the archdemon would then remake the body it jumped into in its own image, i.e. shapeshift into a dragon form pretty much instantly. I'm not sure how that relates to anything though.



At any rate, Morrigan does say that the more powerful the "host" the easier it is for Flemeth to settle in. But that goes back to my original question. Is the power tied to the soul or to the body. I would assume in a mage the power is tied to the physical body. Not to mention that mages are, by their very nature, more susceptible to being possessed. But the old god? Wouldn't it's power be tied to it's soul?

[Ulquiorra_4_Esparda]

CptPatch wrote...

1. Can you believe Morrigan on this subject? Remember that it has been her intention all along, from her departure from Flemeth's hut up until the night before battle, she had not mentioned the option of the ritual. How could the fetus NOT be tainted, since it was the tainted blood in the fetus that attracts the Old God's soul at the crucial moment?
2. SPOILER. Even if Morrigan's Approval of you is 100 (Love), if you refuse to let her get impregnated by you or Alistair, she will leave that night, abandoning you (the person she supposedly loves) right when you will need her the most for the coming battle. Apparently, if you don't give her what she wants, she has no further use for you.
3. In several places they speak of what happens to the Old God soul if it wasn't a Warden that kills it. It transfers to the nearest darkspawn-blooded creature. Eventually it works it's way back into a dragon body as it transfers around. If it transfers into the fetus, it probably becomes the mother's prisoner (if that mother knows what is going on and has enough power of her own). Whatever the reason, _Morrigan_ believes she would take command of the Old God soul and bend it to her bidding.

I _really_ get the impression that the ultimate goal is eventually harness all that power and then to start a campaign to make the entire world bend knee to the all-powerful Morrigan. (Putting her inferiority complex to rest once and for all.)

1. One question remains, what does the dark ritual do? In essense it could remove the taint from the blood but still attract the archdemon, as she said she wanted to have an untainted old god, and unless you don't believe her, she wouldn't have the baby if it was going to be tainted. In essense its a matter of if you believe morrigan in this fact or not.
2. Is it the fact that she didn't get what she wanted? Perhaps it also has a little to do with not wanting to see the person she love die a horrible death (having an old gods soul destroy your own doesn't sound pleasant...).
3. Pure conjecture, neither right nor wrong but there is little reason to believe that outcome over any other.

Your not necessarily wrong, but there are more factors that noone other then the writers at bioware actually know to make a definitive prediction on this issue.

Personally I am hoping that there is a conflict between Morrigans desire for power and her love for, and the influence provided by, the player character, with the possibility of turning her to a better path (ala. Revan + Bastilla). Honestly what I saw in the romance arc with Morrigan was a person with a small flicker of compassion buried under years of  psychological abuse from Flemeth.

[CptPatch]

Why am I feeling like this is similar trying to suggest Global Warming is a threat to a group of GW-deniers? "You ain't right until it jumps up and bites us in the ass!" (Besides, we _like_ Morrigan, and hope she turn to the Light eventually.")



Literally, NONE of us can **prove** anything one way or another. We're not the BioWare scriptwriters.



******* (Vaguely related anecdote)

Worked in the gaming industry for quite a few years. There once was a game company called Sleuth Publications. Produced a game called "Sherlock Holmes, Consulting Detective", a paper-and-pencil/follow the path in a storybook game. They came out with a contest module, $10K prize to the first entry that nailed the 5-case solution _exactly_. So the game took you so far and contestants submitted their best guesses about the final solutions. NOBODY won the prize. One, because the $10K was never there to be awarded in the first place. Two, because there was NO set-in-stone solution. Three, because what Sleuth did was to take the most interesting solutions to write a composite ending to the cases, and then announced, "No one completely solved the cases, though several came close." Cheesiest marketing move in the gaming industry I had seen up to that time.



Connection: It's probably totally IMPOSSIBLE to even guess what will happen along this storyline, because it probably isn't even close to being finalized. BioWare can sit back for awhile and just study the forum speculations. If something looks interesting, they can incorporate it. If they settle on a storyline, but see that speculation hit the nail on the head, they can still make alterations so the ending is still a surprise.



WE can't guess the details, because the details probably haven't been fully written out yet.

[soteria]

Speculate all you please, just don't use misinformation like "Morrigan doesn't care about beauty, only power" as support for it.



I'll take this as confirmation of my suspicion you didn't like Morrigan and didn't pay much attention to her personality? I'm not a fan of her myself, but intentionally destroying the world with another Blight is just not something I can reconcile with her personality.

[jsachun]

soteria wrote...

Speculate all you please, just don't use misinformation like "Morrigan doesn't care about beauty, only power" as support for it.

I'll take this as confirmation of my suspicion you didn't like Morrigan and didn't pay much attention to her personality? I'm not a fan of her myself, but intentionally destroying the world with another Blight is just not something I can reconcile with her personality.

Yes, she is our saviour. The mother of Nature that replenishes our life. We live in her womb, yet we die in one. As she also feeds those that harm us. As all she has is more love to give.

Modifié par jsachun, 11 janvier 2010 - 11:36 .

[Cybercat999]

soteria wrote...

Speculate all you please, just don't use misinformation like "Morrigan doesn't care about beauty, only power" as support for it.

I'll take this as confirmation of my suspicion you didn't like Morrigan and didn't pay much attention to her personality? I'm not a fan of her myself, but intentionally destroying the world with another Blight is just not something I can reconcile with her personality.

Well Morrigan herself says at one point that power only matters actually.

And I do like her, almost to the point that you can call me fan, I can understand her focus on power that she understands and not on mundane matters like love that she doesnt really have a grasp on.
I can even relate to her feelings somewhat since emotional involvement can be pretty tiring and blurr the vision.

I do not think she would destroy the world on intention but I do believe she could be a bit shortsighted about consequences of her actions.

[Erakleitos]

I wonder if Morrigan still offers you the dark ritual if you don't recover the grimoire from the Mage Tower...

[jsachun]

Erakleitos wrote...

I wonder if Morrigan still offers you the dark ritual if you don't recover the grimoire from the Mage Tower...

She does. My first playthrough I could not kill Flemeth. She(they) saves your life for what purpose is anybody's guess.

[soteria]

Well Morrigan herself says at one point that power only matters actually.

What she says is not what she does. Actions speak louder than words, yes? Is she a power-hungry harpy? Yes. Do I like her? No. Is there any evidence she's trying to start another Blight to destroy the world? Not really.

[jsachun]

Maybe she'll just do the Virgin Mary thing. Tevinter Imperium puts the warden's son on to a crucifix.

[Cybercat999]

soteria wrote...

Well Morrigan herself says at one point that power only matters actually.

What she says is not what she does. Actions speak louder than words, yes? Is she a power-hungry harpy? Yes. Do I like her? No. Is there any evidence she's trying to start another Blight to destroy the world? Not really.

How many "yes" and "no" would you like answered?

[Erakleitos]

jsachun wrote...

Erakleitos wrote...

I wonder if Morrigan still offers you the dark ritual if you don't recover the grimoire from the Mage Tower...

She does. My first playthrough I could not kill Flemeth. She(they) saves your life for what purpose is anybody's guess.

But you managed to get the first grimoire if you unlocked the kill flemeth quest. What i meant is if you don't recover the very first Grimoire, where Morrigan learns how Flemeth manage to extend his life.

[Erakleitos]

soteria wrote...

Well Morrigan herself says at one point that power only matters actually.

What she says is not what she does. Actions speak louder than words, yes? Is she a power-hungry harpy? Yes. Do I like her? No. Is there any evidence she's trying to start another Blight to destroy the world? Not really.

Another blight is out of question i think. The darkspawn is a "traditional" evil from a narratological perspective, the absolute evil which is evil for no reason, which doesn't exist in reality... Morrigan may be selfish, but she's not satan, i mean.
I think she just wants to be the new Flemeth, possibly better than her.

[lleggs30]

Erakleitos wrote...

jsachun wrote...

Erakleitos wrote...

I wonder if Morrigan still offers you the dark ritual if you don't recover the grimoire from the Mage Tower...

She does. My first playthrough I could not kill Flemeth. She(they) saves your life for what purpose is anybody's guess.

But you managed to get the first grimoire if you unlocked the kill flemeth quest. What i meant is if you don't recover the very first Grimoire, where Morrigan learns how Flemeth manage to extend his life.

She does. My first playthrough I didn't use Morrigan during the circle questline cuz I swapped her out for Wynne. The grimoire never came up (i didn't even know about it til yesterday) and she still offers the dark ritual at the end.