180 réponses à ce sujet

[CptPatch]

Dessalines wrote...
Second, she does care about the Warden(male or female) She stays and fights the darkspawn with you.after the ritual. She could have left. I know someone will say she wants to make sure you succeed, but she doesn't leave when you ask her to stay at the city gates. She is at the city gates, if she was concerned about you succeeding she would have demanding that she go. She could left after the ritual, or at the city gates. She stays with you.

BUT if you refuse to do the Dark Ritual, she leaves immediately.  Obviously, what she wants is more important than any love/feelings she may have for the Warden.

Remember the explanation about why _she_ can't be present when Flemeth is killed?  This is probably the reverse: The closer she is to the archdemon when it's killed, the greater the chances that the transfer will occur successfully.  If the Dark Ritual is NOT performed, there won't be any transference happening.  So why risk life and limb if there's nothing in it for her that matters to _her_?

Modifié par CptPatch, 24 janvier 2010 - 08:40 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

ONCE UPON A TIME Flemeth was "just" a human Mage. Then she took control of a demon instead of the demon taking control of her.
We don't know this for certain, but that aside:

When you insist that Morrigan can't duplicate what Flemeth has accomplished (with detailed records of the how-to in her grimoires) you are left-handedly saying no one can accomplish what a one-time human Mage accomplished. Effectively, Flemeth has ascended to a level of godhood and no others are capable of following her.
Assuming Flemeth the human is in control, rather than an ancient demon who has long since become accustomed to the mortal plane, you must realize that it was not Flemeth who invaded the demon's body. The demon would have invaded her, and Flemeth would have won out and trapped the demon there.

The is a unique entity of very ancient power: that's the whole point of her.

In literature, such an arrangement would be labeled deus ex machina -- it's that way just because the author said so.
I suggest you retake your philology courses. A deus ex machina is an ill-explained plot element that solves a conflict in the story with little intervention from the characters or preëstablished plot elements. Flemeth was there from the start, and we are given bits and pieces of her story all along.

However, I'm rather curious at the sentiment presented here: do you suggest that you, the reader, know better than the author and that the author's word does not constitute sufficient authority in the matter? What conceit!

Leave it to fanfiction, sir.

Obviously, neither of us can _prove_ that we are right while others are wrong. And lines of argument that go, "You can't prove your theory so therefore MY theory is correct" are ludicrous at best.
I don't have a theory. I merely presented an alternate explanation for a dilemma you posed in order to demonstrate the veracity of your theory. It doesn't matter to me at all whether or not the archdemon blood had a role in the ritual.

The point here is that your theory cannot be sustained due to a lack of evidence, leaps of logic, and inconsistency with the text as presented. You may be invested in it, and perhaps it makes sense to you: but don't try to present it as valid if it clashes with the evidence. You call this "How Things Work" and claim it cannot be proven: unfortunately, it doesn't need to be. So long as the counterexamples exist, they are wrinkles in your theory. It is a remarkable trick to assert that a theory has weight because the problems with it cannot be asserted with certainty.

As far as Morrigan's lies or lack thereof: they are immaterial here. It doesn't matter either way. The counterexamples are entirely unrelated to her: what does she have to do with the broodmother?

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 24 janvier 2010 - 09:19 .

[CptPatch]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
(A) I don't have a theory. I merely presented an alternate explanation for a dilemma you posed in order to demonstrate the veracity of your theory. It doesn't matter to me at all whether or not the archdemon blood had a role in the ritual.

( The point here is that your theory cannot be sustained due to a lack of evidence, leaps of logic, and inconsistency with the text as presented. You may be invested in it, and perhaps it makes sense to you:  © but don't try to present it as valid if it clashes with the evidence. You call this "How Things Work" and claim it cannot be proven: unfortunately, (D) it doesn't need to be. So long (E) as the counterexamples exist, they are wrinkles in your theory. It is a remarkable trick to assert that a theory has weight because the problems with it cannot be asserted with certainty.

(F) As far as Morrigan's lies or lack thereof: they are immaterial here. It doesn't matter either way. The counterexamples are entirely unrelated to her: what does she have to do with the broodmother?

A) I seriously beg to differ.  Go back and review all of your posts.  You've been offereing theories all along.  (As have I.)  A theory is basically a statement of, "This is how I think this works...."  If you have solid proof that something does, in fact, work that way, it stops being a theory and becomes a fact.  Haven't seen all that many facts, from either side of the discussion.

How does my theories differ from yours in that regard?  Because they're your view of what is happening?

C) Okay, I'll bite:  What is the irrefutable "evidence" that irrefutably refutes my speculations?   All I could discern were some theories that things work in a manner other than what I suggested.  I've seen LOTS of theories and speculations, but there has been a serious dirth of actual facts.

D) "There is no need for factual evidence to substantiate that a proffered theory is, in fact, a fact."  I guess, "That's just the way it is" works for you.

E)  Any yet, when I point out wrinkles in your theories/views, they can be ignored or discounted?  Goose/gander.

F) Given that MUCH of the explanations of what Flemeth's plans were, the history of Flemeth, how the Dark Ritual works, what the objective for performing the Dark Ritual is, etc., are all presented by Morrigan, I do believe whether or not she is a liar is quite relevent.  

[VernRyan]

CptPatch wrote...

Basic question:  Had the demon possessed Irving instead of Connor, do you think that the abomination would be more, less, or the same level of power?

It's really hard to say, my guess based on the events of the game is the power level would be the same.  By the events at the tower I would guess that it's the power of the demon that matters moreso than that of the host, but we really dont have enough info to know for sure.

[Dessalines]

CptPatch wrote...

Dessalines wrote...
Second, she does care about the Warden(male or female) She stays and fights the darkspawn with you.after the ritual. She could have left. I know someone will say she wants to make sure you succeed, but she doesn't leave when you ask her to stay at the city gates. She is at the city gates, if she was concerned about you succeeding she would have demanding that she go. She could left after the ritual, or at the city gates. She stays with you.

BUT if you refuse to do the Dark Ritual, she leaves immediately.  Obviously, what she wants is more important than any love/feelings she may have for the Warden.

Remember the explanation about why _she_ can't be present when Flemeth is killed?  This is probably the reverse: The closer she is to the archdemon when it's killed, the greater the chances that the transfer will occur successfully.  If the Dark Ritual is NOT performed, there won't be any transference happening.  So why risk life and limb if there's nothing in it for her that matters to _her_?

It is not obvious.. There are many reasons why she would not want to stick around. I am sorry, but if someone offers to let you livee, and you say I would rather die, because I don't trust you. You are basically saying that I don't love you either. She tells you about the dark ritual. If you were in a relationship, she doesn't even have to do that. It could have been a mystery why you survived and Morrigan disappeared and was seen with a child. Morrigan wanting to sleep with you before the final battle wouldn't been that crazy of an idea, if you are male pc and in relationship with her.. She trusts you enough to tell you the truth of her request, and then you say I do not trust you, and that  I would rather die. You reject her first. Who wants to see someone you care for die?

Second, she doesn' t have to be fight with you to be close to you.  She is freaking shape-shifter. She can turn into a bird or any form to be right by the arch-demon, when it dies.  She doesn't have to risk life or limb, but she still goes to the Final Battle with you.

Third, Flemeth was arrive during the last blight, but no one tells of Grey Wardens surviving arch-demon battle. Why didn't she try this plan sooner? She could have done it herself.

Modifié par Dessalines, 25 janvier 2010 - 12:30 .

[CptPatch]

VernRyan wrote...

CptPatch wrote...

Basic question:  Had the demon possessed Irving instead of Connor, do you think that the abomination would be more, less, or the same level of power?

It's really hard to say, my guess based on the events of the game is the power level would be the same.  By the events at the tower I would guess that it's the power of the demon that matters moreso than that of the host, but we really dont have enough info to know for sure.

I'll readily grant that last part I bolded.

My inclination is to believe that you have a struggle between Mage (M) and Demon (D).  The one with the greater power wins and takes control.  Once in control, the resulting merger (abomination) has a power level = M + D.  It helps if the loser happens to be someone/something that grooves on just being awesomely powerful and willingly accepts the Second Fiddle position.  A maleficar might very well cooperate with the controlling demon; Irving undoubtedly would not, nor would the Demon want to play Second Fiddle to a goody-two-shoes.  Such a match would most likely end with one or the other destroyed.

It just happened that the (Pride?) Demon that took control of Connor was quite powerful, all on his own, so the demonstration at Redcliffe is pretty much all Demon with hardly any Connor.  The disparity between the two was sooo great that it probably accounts for the occasional slips when Connor surfaces: The Demon is so arrogant that he neglects to leave enough of a "babysitter" on Connor, and when it's getting hammered, the distraction lets Connor pop out.

[CptPatch]

Dessalines wrote...
It is not obvious..

First, do not forget that the Dark Ritual is a _ritual_. 
Chanting, precisely positioned candles, incantations, ritual
bloodletting, whatever.  _We_ have no details as to what things are
involved; only that it _is_ a ritual -- as opposed to simple sexual
intercourse.  _Probably_ the ritual mechanics wouldn't look like any
kind of understandable foreplay.  "Honey, what are you doing?" would
require some kind of explanation.  Recognizing that inevitable question
would surface, Morrigan pretty muchhas to explain why she is going to be performing what is obviously some kind of ritual when one would instead expect during those hot and sweaty moments.

Second,
GOOD POINT!  In particular, if you do NOT take Morrigan to the Final
Battle.  But more generally, I would expect that Morrigan recognizes
that the Final Battle is extremely far removed from the realm of a Sure
Thing.  Performing the Dark Ritual and then the archdemon does NOT get
killed would most likely be quite the bummer for Morrigan.  Knocked up,
and no more Wardens left to deliver the coup de grace to the archdemon.  ("Now where did I leave that Morning After potion???" [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie])

Third, other than the assertion that Flemeth has lived "for centuries", I've never heard exactly how many centuries that was.  OTOH, it has been clearly stated that the last (Fourth) Blight occurred _four centuries_ ago.  Flemeth could be **three** centuries old and that would satisfy the "lived for centuries" stipulation.  I don't recall anyone (within the game) stipulating that Flemeth was around for the last Blight.  If you could stir me to the appropriate quote I would (honestly!) appreciate it.

The before/after the last Blight aside, even if Flemeth was alive during the last Blight, it was most likely in the early stages of Flemeth becoming THE Flemeth.  She may very well have not figured out the Dark Ritual yet or found the research materials needed to puzzle it out.  Or she may even have had the Dark Ritual perfected, but she couldn't get herself into position before those gung ho Wardens croaked the archdemon.  When you stop to think about it, there are so many factors involved, if any one of them goes awry, there's an opportunity lost.  What is clearly recorded is that the Grey Warden Garahel died killing the archdemon Andoral, so it's obvious there was NOT a Dark Ritual in place to protect him.

[Dlokir]

There's no hint that Morrigan isn't a pure people manipulating, only seeking the power at any prices. You get plenty of hints about that including Morrigan herself saying in a dialog that she is a master of manipulation. And for her greed of power it's enough to quote when she was ready for killing innocent just for a bit of power, for you, slaves elves part. The final is also very clear on her total lack of humanity if you disagree for her plan.

The point for me is to know if Morrigan is still Morrigan or has become Flemeth. That is unclear. Another possibility and you get few hints for this option, if that Morrigan is in full knowledge of Flemeth plan since the beginning and the Felmeth kill is just a fake event planned by both to grap you better in her nest.

In all cases, don't be wrong about Morrigan/Flemeth, that's pure manipulation and not a little bit of humanity. Still I don't hate Morrigan character, well she's good to manipulate people I can admit that. :-)

Modifié par Dlokir, 25 janvier 2010 - 07:44 .

[CptPatch]

[Pure tangent] I actually find it amazing that Morrigan can manipulate _anybody_. Her standard technique for interacting with people is to

1) Belittle them

2) Sneer at them

3) Tell them they are pathetic

4) Auto-distrust them

5) Insist that their priorities are all wrong

6) Make it obvious that she has ZERO concern about anyone else



Not exactly a formula for "How To Win Friends & Influence People".

[Vuokseniska]

meh this idea about morrigan wants to old god powers is interesting... but is only one possible ending out of 3... would be weird if it all came down to the babby of morrigan

[Belechannas]

Vuokseniska wrote...

meh this idea about morrigan wants to old god powers is interesting... but is only one possible ending out of 3... would be weird if it all came down to the babby of morrigan

Good discussion, but I think this is one of the better points.

From poking around in the dialog files with the Toolkit, btw, I found:

First, Morrigan shows up to offer the ritual even if she has been dismissed from the party previously (if asked, she says she snuck past the guards in animal form).

Second, some other relevant statements about her intentions, at least as she represents them:

Allow me to say that what I seek is the essence of the Old God that once was and not the dark forces that corrupted it.

Some things are worth preserving in this world. Make of that what you will.

The child will represent freedom for an ancient power, a chance to be reborn apart from the taint. Is that not reason enough to do it?

I will raise the child apart from the rest of society, and teach it to respect that from which it came. Beyond that you need know nothing else.

As far as the story and the future, I think it likely that Morrigan and the child (if any) *will* disappear and never be seen again, as she insists.  As Vuokseniska reminds us, there are other endings in which no such child is ever conceived, and in those, too, Morrigan basically disappears for good.  Hence, i have a hard time seeing how future content can rely on a plot element that may or may not exist.  The only future for Morrigan that is consistent with all endings is that you never see her again, regardless.

[Hellebore5000]

I was thinking about this a little more on my current playthrough.



Isn't it entirely possible that the old gods aren't even evil at all?Being so twisted by the taint the Archdemon we know is the polar opposite of the God of Beauty. I think there may not even be a Maker at all, so the Old Gods didn't get banished but could be on a self imposed hibernation. So an Old God 99% free of the taint might even be a force for good like the Grey Wardens.

[CptPatch]

Hellebore5000 wrote...

I was thinking about this a little more on my current playthrough.

Isn't it entirely possible that the old gods aren't even evil at all?Being so twisted by the taint the Archdemon we know is the polar opposite of the God of Beauty. I think there may not even be a Maker at all, so the Old Gods didn't get banished but could be on a self imposed hibernation. So an Old God 99% free of the taint might even be a force for good like the Grey Wardens.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Gods

Sounds like the Maker couldn't stand the competition.  BUT didn't the _Maker_ make the Old Gods in the first place?  Is eternal confinement what the Maker's creations can expect for disappointing the Maker?

Why is it ONLY the darkspawn can find and liberate the Old Gods?  Why not a large group of maleficarum?  And _how_ does a bunch of degenerate humanoids corrupt a **GOD**?  You'd think that once the darkspawn broke into the Old God's prison cell, it would be the Old God taking charge.

Only two Old Gods left on the shelves!  Maleficarum everywhere should be scrambling to get one before they're all gone!

Hmm.  Wait.  I wonder if an unchained, untainted Old God might be able to exert enough power to find those last two before the darkspawn find them.  Hmm.  And how might they feel about someone that both frees them and does NOT corrupt them?  Hmm.

[Durnaug]

Morrigan has nothing to transport into her child.  Morrigan is not possessed by a demon.  In fact, surely the child is already "taken" by a demon - an advanced booking if you like.

I think Morrigan's reasons for suggesting the ritual are conflicted, like her own personality.  Firstly, she wanted to save the Warden.  Secondly, she's tempted by having a child with all that power.  But she cannot posess the child because she is not a demon.  I know blood mages can dominate the will of others, maybe she has that in mind.

To say Flemeth planned to occupy a pregnant Morrigan.  Maybe.  But to say Morrigan planned this all along, i.e. to get impregnated by a Warden, does not accord with the facts.

Modifié par Durnaug, 27 janvier 2010 - 03:10 .

[Bagheeris]

And -- new observation -- recall the cutscene in camp between Morrigan and Dog.  "He's just being being manipulative.  I know he is because I do it too."  [Just thought I'd toss that one out there for food for thought.].
(...)

Morrigan is a smart girl, right? 

Personally i don't think she's that smart. Smart person won't suggest "going after that man Loghain directly" with the information available upon entering Lothering. Neither manipulative, you need social interractions to cultivate that skill, she had no opportunities for that. Well, unless consider "It's so cold in my tent." a smart manipulation ... Morrighan for sure thinks highly of herself (or should i say, "was written to give the impression ... ) but she can't even understand her own emotions.

Pointedly, the Dark Ritual is based on theory.  It has literally NEVER been done before.  (There were only four previous Blights, and everyone knows how those ended.) 

Well, the latest Blight ended 400 years ago. I imagine the records of the last Blight and even more of previous ones might be abit distorted. Furthermore, you can observe the death of the warden who deals the killing blow but what if that warden dies of internal injuries? How can you confirm the Old God soul has travelled to his body and not somewhere else?

Fell free to have your theory about "ultimate plan", i can have my theory about dark ritual having already happened in the past. My theory is that Flemmeth is the result of such ritual, the untainted soul of the Old God now travelling from human to human instead of darkspawns. That would also explain Flemmeth's sympathy towards Grey Wardes since she would be the daughter of one. So you see, i believe Morrigan cannot duplicate Flemmeth's feat but that of Flemmeth's mother.

[CptPatch]

Durnaug wrote...
Morrigan has nothing to transport into her child.  A) Morrigan is not possessed by a demon.  In fact, surely the child is already "taken" by a demon - an advanced booking if you like.

I think Morrigan's reasons for suggesting the ritual are conflicted, like her own personality.  Firstly, C) she wanted to save the Warden.  Secondly, D) she's tempted by having a child with all that power.  But she cannot posess the child because she is not a demon.  I know blood mages can dominate the will of others, maybe she has that in mind.

E) To say Flemeth planned to occupy a pregnant Morrigan.  Maybe.  But to say Morrigan planned this all along, i.e. to get impregnated by a Warden, F) does not accord with the facts.

A) How do you _know_ this?  For that matter, how do you _know_ that Flemeth is possessed by a demon?  And even if there is a demon in Flemeth's picture, how do you _know_ it is NOT her that is possessing the demon (tapping it like a battery where it resides in the Fade)?

???  "Sold the soul of her first born child" maybe?  Demon deals are being broken all the time, by one party or the other.  As a last resort to break the deal, kill the demon.  (How many demons get killed just in the course of DA:O ?  Lots, isn't it?)

C) She confesses during her explanation of the Dark Ritual that it was for that explicit purpose that she was sent with the Wardens in the first place.  Given her attitude towards the Wardens back then, prior to leaving Flemeth's hut, do you really believe that her primary reason for doing the ritual was "to save the Warden"?  I don't see her being that much of a humanitarian.  It isn't until you get her Approval over 50 that she even begins to Care for the Hero.

D) Morrigan is herself a daughter that has decided that it is necessary for her mother to be murdered.  There MUST be a part of her mind that would suspect that there is a chance that any child of hers might come to a similar conclusion about her.  All part and parcel of being a power-hungry, paranoid sociopath.

E) I doubt very much that Flemeth would want to occupy Morrigan while she is pregnant.  She is, after all, VERY familiar with all the discomfort that comes with pregnancy.  I'm sure that Flemeth would very much opt to avoid that if at all possible.  I am more inclined to believe that she would wait until the baby arrives, at which point she would either transfer into Morrigan then or (if the current Flemeth body can endure for another 20 years) murder Morrigan as being "inconvenient" and transfer to the grown child later.

F) What "facts"?

[Shoi]

I wonder if Flemeth is more a namesake then anything. "It is an old old story Flemeth has heard before, and even told. Do you slay the old wretch as morrigan bids, or does the tale take a different turn?"

Lets analyze this

Heard before, and even told? That would insinuate that this event as occurred not once, but twice before at least. Lets imagine for a second, that the original Flemeth is dead, long ago she died. But she had a daughter. This daughter would no doubt inherit the grimoire, maybe even the name. MAYBE the true abomination that is Flemeth, is in fact the grimoire. The book that tells of all her powers and tales, revealing the truth you probably don't know, but Morrigan does and most likely, is convinced in maintaining. Regardless of whether or not you kill Flemeth, you get the book, thus the namesake passes, the power as well. Flemeth lives on, in a new body. The current Flemeth, knowing her time is probably coming soon, sent morrigan out on this journey with you, to possibly set in motion the events. With a pinch of foresight, Flemeth sent morrigan out, figuring that it would not only make her more powerful, but allow her to find a father for the next in line. Morrigan does just that, then leaves with child, possibly a daughter *wink* and prepares to begin her time as Flemeth.

In letting Flemeth live, you have created a twist to it. There is now a current Flemeth, and a girl who should be Flemeth, grimoire and all. The tale has taken a different turn, maybe.

[Durnaug]

CptPatch wrote...

Durnaug wrote...
Morrigan has nothing to transport into her child.  A) Morrigan is not possessed by a demon.  In fact, surely the child is already "taken" by a demon - an advanced booking if you like.

I think Morrigan's reasons for suggesting the ritual are conflicted, like her own personality.  Firstly, C) she wanted to save the Warden.  Secondly, D) she's tempted by having a child with all that power.  But she cannot posess the child because she is not a demon.  I know blood mages can dominate the will of others, maybe she has that in mind.

E) To say Flemeth planned to occupy a pregnant Morrigan.  Maybe.  But to say Morrigan planned this all along, i.e. to get impregnated by a Warden, F) does not accord with the facts.

A) How do you _know_ this?  For that matter, how do you _know_ that Flemeth is possessed by a demon?  And even if there is a demon in Flemeth's picture, how do you _know_ it is NOT her that is possessing the demon (tapping it like a battery where it resides in the Fade)?

???  "Sold the soul of her first born child" maybe?  Demon deals are being broken all the time, by one party or the other.  As a last resort to break the deal, kill the demon.  (How many demons get killed just in the course of DA:O ?  Lots, isn't it?)

C) She confesses during her explanation of the Dark Ritual that it was for that explicit purpose that she was sent with the Wardens in the first place.  Given her attitude towards the Wardens back then, prior to leaving Flemeth's hut, do you really believe that her primary reason for doing the ritual was "to save the Warden"?  I don't see her being that much of a humanitarian.  It isn't until you get her Approval over 50 that she even begins to Care for the Hero.

D) Morrigan is herself a daughter that has decided that it is necessary for her mother to be murdered.  There MUST be a part of her mind that would suspect that there is a chance that any child of hers might come to a similar conclusion about her.  All part and parcel of being a power-hungry, paranoid sociopath.

E) I doubt very much that Flemeth would want to occupy Morrigan while she is pregnant.  She is, after all, VERY familiar with all the discomfort that comes with pregnancy.  I'm sure that Flemeth would very much opt to avoid that if at all possible.  I am more inclined to believe that she would wait until the baby arrives, at which point she would either transfer into Morrigan then or (if the current Flemeth body can endure for another 20 years) murder Morrigan as being "inconvenient" and transfer to the grown child later.

F) What "facts"?

I understand now.  Morrigan is fully complicit in her mothers' plan, apart from Flemeth's intention of taking over her body.  So Morrigan was feigning surprise when Flemeth told her to aid the Warden?  I wonder if you can trust anything Morrigan says?

For example, I can imagine Flemeth taking great delight in telling her daughter that one day she will "own" her body.  So we can speculate that Morrigan knew all along about Flemeth's plan to possess her.  Or maybe Flemeth had her eye on the "Old God" baby.  In either event, perhaps Morrigan planned Flemeth's murder from the outset.

It's like The Usual Suspects - we are only getting Morrigan's viewpoint.  She can paint it anyway she likes. So yes, what are the facts as you ask.  Lol.

[Zethi]

1st of all, interesting topic that you brought up, CptPatch. before getting into all the logic, theory and motivation of the ritual, let me briefly comment on the romance part.

After a few playthrough, I think it was conveyed rather clearly that Morrigan has developed feelings towards the warden. Not denying that saving the warden prolly wasnt her main motivation to perform the ritual, but i strongly feel that it does play a part. I saw your post stating she didnt care about the warden at all coz she'd run off immediately after her offer got rejected. But if you would actually see from her POV, she offered to save the one she cared through sex, got rejected, and knowing the one she likes would die in a few hours, it is not strange that she would want to run away and not get involved in this tragedy anymore instead of watching her beloved one dies.

[Durnaug]

Zethi wrote...

1st of all, interesting topic that you brought up, CptPatch. before getting into all the logic, theory and motivation of the ritual, let me briefly comment on the romance part.
After a few playthrough, I think it was conveyed rather clearly that Morrigan has developed feelings towards the warden. Not denying that saving the warden prolly wasnt her main motivation to perform the ritual, but i strongly feel that it does play a part. I saw your post stating she didnt care about the warden at all coz she'd run off immediately after her offer got rejected. But if you would actually see from her POV, she offered to save the one she cared through sex, got rejected, and knowing the one she likes would die in a few hours, it is not strange that she would want to run away and not get involved in this tragedy anymore instead of watching her beloved one dies.

If you speak to Morrigan in camp at the end of the game (ostensibly set before the final battle but only accessible after the final battle) she seems to appreciate any friendship that developed between her and the Warden. Interestingly enough, she also states that she wasn't aware of Flemeth's plans to kill or possess her.

I now agree with CptPatch that Morrigan was party to Flemeth's scheme to use the Wardens.  However, Flemeth kept Morrigan in the dark about her own fate.  The Warden helps Morrigan to stop Flemeth.  I think there is some respect, even affection for the Warden.  However, Morrigan is subsequently driven by her own desire to bring an "old god" into the world, free of the "taint".  I don't understand all that arcane stuff but Morrigan clearly chooses power and knowledge over companionship.

Morrigan seems driven by an older religion or magic hence all that guff about an "old god" born free of the "taint".  Curiousity as much as power seems to drive her.  She wants to find out what it's like to bring such a being into the world.  A tad insane perhaps.

[CptPatch]

Durnaug wrote...
But if you would actually see from her POV, she offered to save the one she cared through sex, got rejected, and knowing the one she likes would die in a few hours, it is not strange that she would want to run away and not get involved in this tragedy anymore instead of watching her beloved one dies.

To be honest I can actuallt and readily see a "Woman scorned" scenario.  It boils down to Morrigan being told she can't have what she wants (Part of that being the Warden in the sack one more time.)  HOWEVER, one cannot overlook the fact that Morrigan fully intends (and makes it _quite_ clear) that once her involvement is done with the current events, she will be gone, gone, gone, never be seen by the Warden ever again.  This is regardless of whether he sleeps with her or not -- it's just that if the sleeping is a no-go, she will be gone immediately.


I can see an argument for a strong affection, but...love?   Certainly it is NOT the "I'll sacrifice myself to assure that the person I live" kind of love.  More like, "In the future I may think of you occasionally and entertain might-have-been daydreams."  But once she decides to leave, what happens to the Warden is no longer her concern.  (_Unless_ he tries to find her, in which case she intends to do whatever is necessarry to assure that he does NOT succeed at that task.)

The determination to excise the Warden from her life does not strike me at all as, "I'm doing this for your own good.  Because I would be bad for you."  More like, "Having you in my life has become inconvenient for me.  God bye.  Don't try to keep in touch."

[Zethi]

k continuing from where i left yesterday, if you have noticed morrigan had emphasized much on the fact that she had to leave immediately after the archdemon is destroyed. if u pick the dialogue and beg her to stay for the celebration even just briefly she'd say look you are just making things very difficult, and then she just refuses to talk at all.
yes i totally do not deny the fact morrigan is doing this mainly for her own benefit, but maybe there is the possibility that being close to the warden would cause the ritual to be undon. which would totally destroy all her effort. also in the conclusion it says in one ending that you could feel morrigan through her ring, and you can feel her sorrow and regret. I dont think the bioware staff need to lie about her feelings. well from that playthrough, i strongly felt that morrigan is doing the ritual for both purposes (her benefit+saving warden) and it requires her to be far away even though she isnt completely willing. 

about the ritual itself, i saw your arguement about how the child must be tainted. which i disagree. 1 this is a ritual. as you said. it might actually cleanse the taint as she stated for *unknown* reasons. but then if you related the taint to something similar in real life, like the case of HIV where if mother is negative, father is positive, the virus is however most of time not carried onto the child. hence u can actually see the birth itself as a *cleanse*. you said then why does it has to be a warden and how come its this child and not others. reason being 1. remember it is the warden that kills the archdemon, not anyone else because normal human cannot finish the archdemon. and its not only the taint that connects the child and the father. its like saying how hiv would be a only similarity to a HIV possitive father and his child, in this case the old god soul prolly just travels to the nearest empty vessel that has the blood most similar to the wardens.
also, now if we expand our imagination, there are too many reasons and possibilities in how this child is important and can be used. it is possible that the abomination of flemmeth is an old god or its minion but something mighty itself, noting how she could morph into a dragon, which is something considered very mighty and powerful in the dragon age world. and perhaps she carries the mission of saving the soul of old god instead of destroying it. no doubt morrigan admires power and such, but it doesnt mean shes very power hungry, she respects power in all forms. but of course im not denying the other possibilities others suggested such as the most likely outcome of morrigan taking over the *oldgod* and becoming more powerful and such im simply saying anything can happen:P

Modifié par Zethi, 30 janvier 2010 - 09:23 .

[Zethi]

and sorry i just read your post haha i was suppose to post the above post yesterday, anyways i see where your coming from and your emphasis on her departure. but how i see it is if u dont sleep with morrigan, (remember the warden is going to die) then it is perhaps you abandoning her forever instead of she abandoning you, and of course it is hard for her to stay and watch you die in your final battle and why would she be bothered to help you if you are going to die anyways. however if you do sleep with her, perhaps as i suggested that there is reason for her to be away from the warden in order to make sure the ritual would be complete and successfully, because if you talk to her in the end you can definitely feel her unwillingness of leaving the warden's side. and the fact she gave the ring to warden and kept the connection so that one day wen her whatsoever mission is over she would once return to the wardens side. though shes denying such possibility simply because the chance is minute. or maybe she gave you the ring so she can make sure that shes away from you, but yet watching you from afar:P.

anyways of course everyone has different understandings of the game, to me i really dont feel flemmeth or morrigan that evil and power hungry, i dont see how staying in the wood by yourself for hundreds of years would make you more powerful than otherwise. also with flemmeth power she could probably bring forth much destruction if she wanted. sorry if i repeated what i said in the post above but to me, instead of being power hungry, morrigan simply respects power of all forms, obtained by all means, not judged by the common good or evil, right or wrong and perhaps thats because of her background (as an apostate herself).

Modifié par Zethi, 30 janvier 2010 - 09:29 .

[Zethi]

one last addition lol, about the actually soul transfering process, my theory is-->warden kills archdemon-->soul travels to warden however warden already has a soul, which repels it, old god soul then travels to *the part of warden* thats however outside wardens body without a soul(remember how the game emphasized that the ritual has to be done the night before the actual kill). however the fetus is one that without taint (as explained above with relation to HIV as an example)hence, the old god soul has successfully landed in a host without taint!.

and back to the original topic of this post. no matter what purpose, one fact amongst all uncertainties, without the ritual - old god soul is destroyed. with the ritual old god soul is preserved. and as you said story isnt finallised why they want to save the old god soul, is the soul itself good or evil whether its free or taint or not, if it is gonna used for her own benefit or for a greater cause, is the old god soul gonna bring forth fortune or destruction, we'll see in the future:"P.

Modifié par Zethi, 30 janvier 2010 - 09:53 .

[CptPatch]

Zethi wrote...
 remember it is the warden that kills the archdemon, not anyone else because normal human cannot finish the archdemon. and its not only the taint that connects the child and the father.

This needs to be clarified.  A "normal" person _can_ kill an archdemon.  It's just that the archdemon won't stay dead:

"If killed by anyone else, as Riordan explains, it will move into the
body of the closest Darkspawn (who are soulless), making it almost
immortal, short of exterminating every Darkspawn in existence."

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Archdemon

This brings back the observation that it MUST be something that makes a Warden uniquely different from every other male humanoid.  And the _only_ thing is that the Wardens have ALL drank a mixture of darkspawn blood, a drop of archdemon blood, and lyrium, whereas "normal" humanoids have not.  And it must be the uniqueness of a Warden that in small part transfers to the fetus-to-be during the Dark ritual, otherwise why MUST the sperm donor be a Warden? 

So, if during transfer a recently killed archdemon will bypass both the immediately adjacent Warden that did the killing, as well as any other nearby darkspawn, and instead home in on the itty bitty few cells that are the developing fetus, something must have supercharged whatever it is that calls to the archdemon soul currently in flux. 

As for, "How does one strip off the taint that defines an archdemon (as opposed to the Old God that it once was)?" note that the Dark Ritual does NOT modify the archdemon as it was not present for the ritual.  And recall that there is _something_ about tainted blood that attracts the tainted Old God soul during the transfer stage.  If the recently released Old God soul was NOT itself compatible with tainted blood -- that is, the Old God soul is once again pure for a moment, whyever would it be drawn into that tainted darkspawn blood trap again?  Why wouldn't instead seek out an un-tainted mortal vessel instead?  For the sould to essentially want to transfer to a repository of tainted blood, it pretty much must _still_ be tainted.

So you've got tainted soul wanting to transfer to tainted blood.  If the final destination is going to be the Dark Ritual fetus, it must be that the fetus has made a higher "bid" than either the Warden that did the killing or any other darkspawn, it has to be generating a larger Call to the soul.  "Hey, soul!  You REALLY want to move in here than any of those other, closer, more convenient locations!"

For the Old Soul to become untainted, something about the moving in process would have to strip off the taint.  BUT it is the taint that attracts the tainted Old God soul in the first place.  Which means that the taint is destroyed after the fact.  Which means that there is a magical means to strip the taint from darkspawn blood.  Which means that there is an actual _cure_  available for converting darkspawn back into some kind of untainted humanoid.  Instead of simply killing darkspawn, it would be possible to save them.  After all, _that_ would be the more humane thing to do, as it the taint in their blood that makes darkspawn the vicious, relentless killers that they are.  And if those darkspawn become untainted, it reduces the darkspawn's ability to increase their numbers even better than if you simply killed them.  (Sort of like turning conscripted troops back against those that conscripted them.)