180 réponses à ce sujet

[CptPatch]

Zethi wrote...
and of course it is hard for her to stay and watch you die in your final battle and why would she be bothered to help you if you are going to die anyways.

This is NOT a foregone conclusion.  True, in the absence of the Dark Ritual, a Warden _will_ die because he killed the archdemon.  But that Warden could be

Riordan -- as senior Warden present, he is actually the most likely candidate to do the deed.
Loghain -- provided you didn't execute him.  And sacrificing himself is his ONLY shot at redeeming himself for all the harm he has caused to his beloved Ferelden.
Alistair -- who feels duty bound enough that if the opportunity presents itself,  he _will_ take it
The Hero -- who has the option to let any of the others to sacrifice themselves.  (Which means the probability is directly related to how selfish you played the Hero to be.)

HOWEVER, Morrigan absenting herself from the battle _does_ directly increase the probability that the Hero will die.

Hmm.  "I can stick around and the Hero might die.  Or I can leave right now and the Hero will probably die.  Hmm.  How much do I really care about the Hero's chances of survival?"

[Zethi]

please read the post thats directly above urs:P.

[CptPatch]

"my theory is-->warden kills archdemon-->soul travels to warden however warden already has a soul, which repels it"



This is precisely what happens if there had been no Dark Ritual -- except that when the tainted soul tries to occupy the Warden, you have two things trying to occupy the same space and you get that flashy KABOOM that destroys both souls.



Your theory tries to create an intelligence in the process that simply isn't there. If the tainted soul _had_ the ability to re-direct to someplace more congenial, the Warden-kills-the-archdemon strategy would NOT work in the first place, because the soul would arrive at the Warden, sense the occupancy, and re-direct to a darkspawn instead.



For the Dark Ritual to work as planned, the soul must go directly to the fetus. My ongoing question is _what_, precisely, is it that is attracting the soul in the first place?

[Zethi]

as i explained the ritual has to be done night before the kill, you can still view the fetus as part of the warden thats not actually in warden's body. thats the condition for the ritual to work. and yes the soul goes directly into the fetus, the part of warden thats without a soul.

but anyways if u noticedm the warden's body does light up when he/she strikes the finishing blow, showing maybe there's some kind of interaction. or its just the same ending movie for all possible endings:P

Modifié par Zethi, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:56 .

[CptPatch]

Zethi wrote...

as i explained the ritual has to be done night before the kill, A) you can still view the fetus as part of the warden thats not actually in warden's body. thats the condition for the ritual to work. and yes the soul goes directly into the fetus, the part of warden thats without a soul.

but anyways if u noticedm the warden's body does light up when he/she strikes the finishing blow, showing maybe there's some kind of interaction. or its just the same ending movie for all possible endings

A) But what part of the Warden's body would that be that calls so loudly, louder even the much greater quantity to be found in the Warden's body?  What part of a Warden's body differs from EVERY other humanoid on the planet, except other Wardens?  I can easily see that part in the fetus being supercharged by the Dark Ritual, making it one helluva beacon for the soul in migration mode.  What I cannot see is it being anything other than the taint in the Warden's blood.

This, definitely.  It doesn't matter if the Warden dies or if the Dark Ritual saves him.  If he dies, instead of seeing the Warden get splattered all over the fortress top, they simply pan back so you see the tower from a distance and you get the big KABOOM graphic that signals the death of the archdemon.

[CptPatch]

CLARIFICATION: I just played through another Dark Ritual sequence.  If you press Morrigan for details, she states unquivocably that it is the taint in the fetus that attracts the Old God/archdemon soul.

What Morrigan does NOT explain is how, once that soul arrives at its destination, how is the taint removed?  The closest she comes to an explanation is to say that once the merger takes place, the fetus is "transformed".

????   A tainted Old God soul is drawn to a tainted fetus....and the taint just miraculously disappears?

How......convenient.  For Morrigan that is.  She'll explain all the other factors in detail, but not that.  As she demonstrates in other regards, perhaps she is following her own pattern of, "The best lie is one you don't speak aloud."

[lightstryker]

I was thinking that this is why Morrigan is so easy to sleep with. Easier than any other character. You can bed her almost right after you meet if you talk to her enough without even giving any gifts (or maybe one). She wants to get extremely close with you so you'll do her ritual, obviously, so that could explain her making it so easy for you.

[Durnaug]

Just how manipulative is Morrigan?

When you question her after you recover from the Battle of Ostagar, you can ask Morrigan why Flemeth saved you instead of the King?  Morrigan is also puzzled and states she does not know.

When Flemeth volunteers her daughter to accompany the Warden, again Morrigan seems annoyed and surprised.

However, by the time of the ritual, she states that it was Flemeth's plan all along.  Did Morrigan glean this information from reading Flemeth's journals or was she in on the act from the beginning.

If you think Morrigan knew about Flemeth's plans from the beginning, i.e. that Morrigan was lying to the Grey Wardens from the start, then her manipulation knows no bounds.  If you assume this then you cannot trust anything she has said about herself or her mother.  Perhaps her plan was always to double cross Flemeth and use the Warden to kill her.  Fair enough.

I like to think that although Morrigan is a scheming rat, she did not know all of Flemeth's plans, especially the part were Flemeth hoped to take over her body.  When Morrigan found out about the final ritual is open to interpretation: did she know from the first or did she find out from reading Flemeth's journals.  

Morrigan states she has known about the ritual for quite some time now - I understand that as meaning during her journeys with the Grey Warden.  She states that the ritual was Flemeth's plan all along - it does not necessarily follow that Morrigan knew about this plan from the beginning.  

Morrigan finds out Flemeth's intentions regarding the ritual by reading the recovered Grimoires.  She hatches a plan to continue Flemeth's work by carrying out the ritual.  If Morrigan has grown to love the Warden then a secondary benefit is that the Warden lives.  However, Morrigan's thirst for knowledge and power is her primary motivation. 

If you refuse the ritual, you're thwarting her plans.  But a slightly more generous (and weaker) interpretation is that she doesn't want to see you die.

[EDIT]...but if Flemeth had planned the ritual all along then Morrigan had to know from the beginning.  So unless Bioware have messed up the characterisation, then Morrigan feigning ignorance at the start was a charade.  This really does make her a tad nasty ;-)

Modifié par Durnaug, 04 février 2010 - 09:40 .

[Durnaug]

Here is a thought provoking article on the dark ritual and the two "witches of the wild"...

http://gameinformer....spx?PageIndex=2

[CptPatch]

Durnaug wrote...
I like to think that although Morrigan is a scheming rat, she did not know all of Flemeth's plans, especially the part were Flemeth hoped to take over her body.  When Morrigan found out about the final ritual is open to interpretation: did she know from the first or did she find out from reading Flemeth's journals.

Let's assume that you did NOT do Morrigan's personal quest.   You did NOT go kill Flemeth, nor did you strike the deal with Flemeth where you let her go, but tell Morrigan you've done the deed.  You could go even further and never give Morrigan the Black Grimoire.  On the eve of battle, Morrigan _still_ approaches the Hero and pitches the virtues of the Dark Ritual.  And she will _still_ stipulate that having the Dark Ritual was Flemeth's intention all along.  How can that be the case and NOT have it that Morrigan also knew about it from the very start?  It would require Flemeth to have contacted and communicated with Morrigan the details of the plan.  And such communication MUST have been conducted before the Hero kills Flemeth (if you went down that path). 

Any way you look at it, at the very least, Morrigan has been deliberately withholding vital info from the Hero for quite awhile.

[CptPatch]

Durnaug wrote...
Here is a thought provoking article on the dark ritual and the two "witches of the wild"...

http://gameinformer....spx?PageIndex=2

The hole in the writer's premise as to probable sequel is: How would the premise reconcile with a playthrough where the Dark Ritual was NOT performed?  Or one where the Hero dies doing the deed?  I can easily see "The Return of Morrigan" as being a terrific foundation to a sequel, but for continuity's sake, it can't be predicated on that Dark Ritual performed supposition.

Unless......To cover her bets, maybe she also performed the Dark Ritual with Riordan.  Hmm.

[CptPatch]

Ah! Alas and alack....



If in your playthrough neither the Hero or Alistair performed the Dark Ritual with her, then when the archdemon gets killed, a Warden WILL die with it. Had Morrigan performed the Dark Ritual with Riordan, then the Warden would NOT die, as the reason the Warden dies (the tainted Old God soul trying to take up residence in the Warden) would not be present (having instead migrated instead to Morrigan's tummy).

[blademaster7]

Riordan is not a possible candidate for the dark ritual. If you play as a female character and have a romance will Alistair you can ask her: "why not Riordan?". She'll tell you that she needs a GW that hasn't been tainted for too long and the only option is Alistair.



---



And one more (irrelevant)thing. Why was this posted in the gameplay section? Wouldn't be better to get this in the storyline forum? You'll get a lot more responses there.

[CptPatch]

blademaster7 wrote...
And one more (irrelevant)thing. Why was this posted in the gameplay section? Wouldn't be better to get this in the storyline forum? You'll get a lot more responses there.

It sort of started out as "Why not to do the Dark Ritual."  Quickly turned into some kind of forensic analysis and debate of magical theory.

[Veritasinpersonam]

Its pretty clear that possessing the old god child would grant Flemeth immortality along with a potential host of other powers and abilities.

[CptPatch]

Veritasinpersonam wrote...
Its pretty clear that possessing the old god child would grant Flemeth immortality along with a potential host of other powers and abilities.

With the ability to regularly transfer to a younger version of herself (i.e., her daughters), Flemeth already has a workable form of immortality.  So it must be something that the presence of the Old God's soul that adds something new to the equation.  (Most likely a quantum boost to her innate arcane powers.)

[Vicious]

The Black City holds all the answers, according to Avernus's texts. Should be interesting.

[Jamie_edmo]

The Black City... now that should be interesting

[Zendrith]

About the mention of blights in this discussion.. If I remember correctly the blight in this game was the 5th one. And there are multiple old gods. So another blight is possible whether or not this has got something to do with Morrigan.



I think that the Morrigan story probably has multiple possible plots. Perhaps the child gets out of control and kills morrigan, specially if it finds out that Morrigan intends to take over the body. It's very hard to speculate any of this, and the writers have plenty of possible things to come up with.

[Mirthadrond]

I don't think Morrigan knew about the ritual, or Flemeth's plan, at the start.



To me: Flemeth knew about the ritual, and planned on taking the childs body. Sending her super sexy daughter with a couple of Grey Wardens was bound to yield the desired result. After all, she knew Morrigan would admire the Wardens strength and skill, so her having sex with one or more of them was a likely possibility.



Morrigan only 'learned and surmised' Flemeth's plans after getting her books.



Even IF Morrigan leaves the party before any of this happens, and Flemeth isn't killed, Flemeth could easily send Morrigan out again (not uncovering the secrets) with the intent of telling the Warden about the Dark Ritual, in hopes of them choosing life over self-sacrifice.



Until Morrigan learns of Flemeths 'true' intent (reading the Grimore) she clearly admires and respects her mother.

Her surprise "if "she discovers the secret is believable and genuine. Her course of action made clear.

Self-preservation dictates that "Flemeth must die."



I 'safely' presume Morrigan learns of the ritual by reading the Grimore and decides to follow through with her mothers intent, for her own selfish reasons. (known about ritual for quite some time)

After all - having a 'old god baby' would certainly cause problems in the Chantry. (which she despises)



Obviously - it is a BIG gamble on Flemeths part, but one she's willing to take for the potential reward.

Save the newbie wardens, send Morrigan off with them, and let nature take it's course.



Simple and diabolical.

[Durnaug]

Mirthadrond wrote...

I don't think Morrigan knew about the ritual, or Flemeth's plan, at the start.

The problem with this is that even if you never help Morrigan find the grimoires, she turns up at the end knowing all about the ritual [someone pointed this out in an earlier post...I think...flaky recall here].  This makes it more likely that Flemmeth taught Morrigan the ritual.  If you buy this then you realise Morrigan is more manipulative that you imagine.

For example, she and Flemmeth act out a scene at the beginning during which Morrigan feigns surprise then irritation at being forced by Flemmeth to accompany the Wardens.  This could all be a lie, if Morrigan is in on the plan  which seems likely considering that she knows the ritual even without the books.

It is highly likely that Morrigan did not realise that Flemmeth plans to possess her body, i.e. Morrigan only glean this information from the grimoires.  However, there is a possibility that Morrigan is all too aware of Flemmeth's possession plan and always wanted Flemmeth killed by the Warden. 

I now like to think that Morrigan was following Flemmeth's instructions to get a Warden's child but rebelled when she realised that Flemmeth planned to possess herself or the child.  Morrigan is a believer in the old gods and now wants to rear such a being free of the taint.

Modifié par Durnaug, 23 février 2010 - 02:07 .

[DraconisCombine]

Well then my ending and consequences will be interesting.I didnt kill Flemeth.I went back and said nothing.I also took Morrigan's offer so shes with child.So i will have to deal with both of them at some point later on.

On a side note if you do go to kill Flemeth ,with Morrigan in your group,Flemeth is nowhere to be found and the hut is empty.

[Janni-in-VA]

"Why are we assuming it's the taint? It could easily be the archdemon blood that was involved in the Joining...." Now, that would be interesting, would it not?

One thing that I haven't yet seen mentioned, although I might have missed this point, is that as a mage who has grown up outside the Chantry, Morrigan doesn't have the same reservations about certain forms of magic or certain magical beings. If you work through the conversation tree with her about why she wants to perform the ritual and why she needs either the male PC or Alistair, she does say at one point that the untainted essence of an old god is worth preserving in and of itself. She's made similar comments here and there throughout the game. If you tell her, for instance, that you think her shape-shifting abilities sound very useful, she applauds your common sense. She also mentions, in the same conversation (?), that there are many magical traditions outside Chantry and Circle which she believes are important and worth preserving. Sometimes the reference is a bit oblique, as when she encourages you to release Sten "...for mercy's sake..." if for no other reason simply because he's Qunari.

Now, I do not for a minute believe that Morrigan would do anything without considering all the possible ramifications that her very clever mind could foresee. I do, however, believe that there's a great deal about Flemeth that she didn't understand or wasn't sure of until she studied both the Black and the True Grimoires. However, the Ritual is something she was apparently aware of from very early on, since she'll show up End of Game to perform it whether or not she's seen the Grimoires. (I don't have a play-through that verifies this fact for myself but am relying on an earlier poster's experience.) It seems, though, that the Grimoires do give her a better chance to protect herself and her child. This same desire to remove herself and her child further from Flemeth's possible influence may also be why she was seen headed toward Orlais. If nothing else, she talks about how her mother's stories "...curdled my blood and haunted my dreams." Also, she laments that "...no little girl wants to hear stories of the Wilder men her mother took to her bed, using them until they were spent. No little girl wants to hear that the same is expected of her when she comes of age." Perhaps therein lies the reason for Morrigan's not wanting lengthy relationships?

All of these things are things we may deduce from what Morrigan has said through the game. The question which we can not really settle is what will become of this child. It will be interesting to see, won't it?

Modifié par Janni-in-VA, 26 février 2010 - 01:51 .

[Admiral_Phoenix]

I wonder how the choice to do the ritual will have an impact on future games, because it seems rather important. If you refused the ritual, then there'll be no old god baby. I doubt it'll have a huge impact because these decisions in previous games can't really be massively game changing.