180 réponses à ce sujet

[Masticetobbacco]

nahhh bioware isn't THAT lazy



Im sure creating the demon baby will have a somewhat large impact in DA2

[DarkCamel]

Bioware still has a two options left to get Morrigan pregnant even if the ritual is declined - either she finds one of the two remaining Old Gods on her own, or she convinces another Warden to do the deed while ending the 6th blight. Thats why I think we (as players) will never see the 6th blight.

[Janni-in-VA]

While responding to a post on another topic, I remembered something from the Codex entry on Dragon Cults by Brother Genitivi. He points out that dragons are not the Old Gods but that the Tevinter began to worship them as gods after the end of the first blight, and so we see the beginnings of dragon cults such as we encounter during the quest for the Sacred Ashes. So, Morrigan isn't having a god-baby, she's having a dragon-baby. Remember that the blood potion Wardens drink contains a drop of blood from an archdemon (a tainted dragon) so perhaps this connection is how the dragon's soul overcomes any trace of the Taint? Puts a whole new spin on things, doesn't it? Now, we all know that Morrigan is an atheist -- she doesn't hold with belief in any god -- but she does believe (as I said in my earlier post) that there are magics outside of Chantry and Circle which should be preserved, and it's this belief that I think is her motive for performing the dark ritual. Plus, as Brother Genitivi points out in that Codex entry, we really don't know much about draconic intelligence.



Oh yes, this should be very interesting indeed.

[Marcellion]

I actually remember Morrigan asked the protagonist to kill Flemeth for her (as she found out how Flemeth prolong her life from the Grimore); In the quest I didn't kill Flemeth and I lied to Morrigan about killing and passed her the Grimoire; but before the arch demon battle she now comes offering this "life-saving" deal and claiming that is why she joined the wardens is for this chance, and she was sent by Flemeth........so is she and Flemeth still in good terms? or what else have I missed?

[Marcellion]

And I didn't know what happened to Flemeth after completing the game despite not killing her..

[Super_Fr33k]

A few things:



As others have noted, Morrigan is not exactly good or evil, so when/if she and the old god child reappear, I think her actions will continue to have some redeemable or at least ambiguous characteristics. This injects better conflict into possible expansions/sequels, since the possibility of allying with her would be very interesting.



I think it's pretty dubious whether Morrigan intends to possess the child, let alone if she's actually capable of it. We don't know how powerful the old god really is, and Flemeth's possession techniques may not be strong enough, and might require being an abomination like Flemeth. I also think Morrigan's respect for nature and unique individuals may preclude her even considering possession.



Additionally, whatever Morrigan's long-term goal is, it is, at least initially, unconcerned with immense loss of life and the spreading of the blight. Her choosing to leave immediately if you refuse the ritual makes this pretty clear.



My personal theory is that Morrigan intends to reawaken the remaining Old Gods before the darkspawn taint them, and restore their place in the natural world. I think this presents a more dynamic conflict than her simply possessing her child and becoming some megalomaniacal conqueror or simply taking the child into hiding for the sake of preserving ancient creatures and knowledge. Awakening the remaining Old Gods ties into her disdain and rejection of the chantry's authority, her disregard for most mortals which she views as blinded and confined by society, and her respect for the natural world.



It's also a logical explanation for how cryptically she offers the ritual-- if she were going to live quietly in the woods with her super-baby, she probably wouldn't object to you dropping by occasionally. That her goal is of great consequence (she risks touching off a holy war with the chantry and even repeating the sins of the Tevinter Imperium) explains why she wouldn't trust the warden to help her. And, if her goal is to save the other old gods, it'd make sense for her to abandon the warden immediately if the ritual is refused, so she can focus on saving the last two.



I think my theory draws upon all aspects of her personality, rather than boiling them down to simply immoral or selfish. With Morrigan awakening old gods and so directly assaulting the chantry and Thedan society, she isn't just a villain: she's a force, the response to and anti-thesis of Andraste.



Tell me that wouldn't be cool.

[Lowenhart]

Morrigan is bring back the old gods magic, the gods who taught the tevinter empire its magic, it may not be such a bad thing really, considering it might be only way to stop the blights, aslong as the old gods tainted spirit sleeping in the black city, there always a chance of a new blight through the fade, the old gods originally meant for the tevinter mages to free them from the prisons the maker put them in inside the fade, but it backfire when the tevinter mages entered the golden city, and it got tainted by their sin resulting in the maker casting them out, and them becoming darkspawns, and the maker then abandoned the world, speculation surgest me may be somewhere in the fade with andreste, however the old gods became arch demons corrupted by the (darkspawn)tevinter mages taint, and the old magic more or less got lost into time, and what was left got leashed by the chantry of light.

While the arch demons spirits will return to the fade corrupted you cant really get rid of them only alternative is to remove their corruption, since you cant really destroy the elder gods only the maker can that as far as we know.
And the arch demons can always return through the fade by possessing someone.

So initially only to way to remove their threat one be to ban all magic all together, and second is to cleanse them of sin and return them to a godless world. And i suppose Flemeth and morrigan saw the last option as the better of them.

Modifié par Lowenhart, 28 mars 2010 - 11:56 .

[Marcellion]

Rob_R wrote...

This means two things - she *is* evil, and there is no depth she wouldn't stoop to in the name of power.  The old god thing is *so* important to her that she'll risk several months of fighting the blight (a cause she cmust surely feel is a fool's errand) to get.  Now that is a dangerous mix indeed.  Any Warden who did not perform the US made a *big* mistake.

Well, I agree on this bit about Morrigan being evil; to be honest, I thought the expansion "awakening" was about the child =) but it wasnt of course. Going back to Morrigan, she is indeed evil, she is power hungry and definitely has a plot with the power she will have with the child. I would say her feelings for the Warden is real love but however, her ultimate goal goes much further than the Warden and she has chosen to leave to get away from the passion she had for him.

I could only think of a continuation about story of Morrigan with either:
1. Warden's search for Morrigan in stop of arising evil power from her and the child.
2. or the story would be years later and we will be using a totally new character interfering the Warden and Morrigans problem with the child and the new evil power.

or maybe we have nothing =P

Modifié par Marcellion, 28 mars 2010 - 03:18 .

[Marcellion]

oh yea, so..........if Flemeth wasnt killed, did she end up with Morrigan? or Morrigan is alone on the whole thing about the child ?

[Janni-in-VA]

"My personal theory is that Morrigan intends to reawaken the remaining Old Gods before the darkspawn taint them, and restore their place in the natural world. "

I had never thought of this, but it fits perfectly with Morrigan's character.  It would also prevent the last two Blights, which I think would also fit with her respect for the natural world.


"[as long] as the old [god's] tainted spirit [is] sleeping in the black city, there [is] always a chance of a new blight through the fade"

You haven't read the lore correctly, I'm afraid.  When a tainted old god is killed by a warden, both souls are destroyed.  The tainted soul does NOT return to the Fade.  The only connection the Fade has with the darkspawn is the Chantry explanation for them.  The Tevinter mages entered the Fade and corrupted the Golden City.  The Maker cast the mages out as corrupted, tainted creatures who then created the darkspawn.  The old dragon gods are not tainted until the darkspawn find them.

I wouldn't call Morrigan "evil".   In order to be evil, you have to know what good is and actively work against it.   Morrigan doesn't work against you in any good deed you choose to do.  She may not approve, but she doesn't actively try to stop you either.  Also, considering Morrigan's upbringing, when would she have had a chance to learn about being good?   She was brought up by a mother who did what was expedient and whose personal goal was survival.   Also, she understands the lesson of Nature that "...first, you must survive."  Morrigan is actually amoral in that she doesn't make a distinction between right and wrong; she doesn't really have a moral code.  For her, it's about strength and survival, not right and wrong.  Now, we may judge her actions as evil, but that's applying our own morality to her actions.

I don't believe that Morrigan is going to return with an evil child, Alistair's joke about a "demon baby" notwithstanding.  Her goal is not to control this old god's soul (I'm not even sure she could if she wanted to do so), but simply to preserve it to allow a magic which has been lost for centuries to return to the world.  This preservation is the only reason she uses the Dark Ritual Flemeth taught her.  As far as Morrigan is concerned, Flemeth is dead, so what her mother may have wanted is no longer a concern.  If the PC didn't kill Flemeth, there may be some interesting complications down the road, although Flemeth herself says that she may just watch Morrigan since, "It will be interesting to see what she does with her freedom."

Modifié par Janni-in-VA, 28 mars 2010 - 08:12 .

[Jabraham002]

1) About Morrigan being evil.

Using Rob_R's examples.

Example 1) I don't think she is "evil," she is simply looking at the big picture. As far as killing the slaves to gain more power: killing a few elves to get the power that could tip the scales in your favor against the blight, saving thousands of lives isn't too bad a tradeoff (they would likely die if you lose anyway). Not that I'm condoning their possible death or anything, I'm just rationalizing that decision.

Example 2) Finding Owen's daughter could be a waste of time (and possibly your life) that could be used ending the blight.

Example 3) Caradin same as the slaves, what's a few lives it they can be spent saving the world.

Saying this, I must state that I went against Morrigan on all of this examples man more.

(YES!!! It would be wrong, but if you could kill a handful of innocent people to save a million would it be EVIL ?)



2) On the "demon baby thing"

1) I said this awhile ago on another thread, and I think someone touched on this, but the old gods taught , arguably, the most powerful mages ever, the Tevinter mages "all they knew." This mages made it all the way to the throne of the maker it the once golden city. If the old gods could teach the Tevinter mages that, perhaps they could teach Morrigan/Flemeth the same.

2) (In my understanding the old gods rebelled against the maker, and seduced his people into worshiping them, and even rebelling against him.) Morrigan hates the chantry,(the maker worshiping, mage imprisoning, "all knowing") chantry. (A) Maybe Morrigan wants to "free" the world from the chantry, an all-out holy war. And being the initiator of this war she would be its' greatest benefactor (kind of evil, but more game play). ( Or she just wants to learn the secrets that they hold (not so evil, but not so much game play).

[Jabraham002]

If Morrigan is completely evil, than I would agree with you, Rob, but if she is, why would she not only approve of you saving Sten, but suggest it? And about the car crash, I think it would be more like skipping the car crash and spending that time saving a burning orphanage. Are you "evil" for saving more lives and more likely to get a medal or a prize? (If the medal and prize is the only reason, than perhaps.) That's the way I see Morrigan, by no means is she a "goody-two-shoes" superhero, she is just cruel in the way she looks at the bigger picture. Even if the only reason she "saves Ferelden" is for the old god (which maybe for good or ill), is she evil? It would be like saying a doctor that saves lives only for the paycheck is evil too.



BUT if Morrigan truly is evil, and plans to do evil with the child than any good she had accomplished in the process will be undone. If this is the case or not…. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Jabraham002]

If she IS evil, than I agree with you completely, but in the off chance that she is not than I can see were her disapproval comes from. Why die saving one man's daughter, (who will die anyway if the blight isn't stopped) when you can save your strength to fight and end the blight and save many more. Of course this only applies if Morrigan isn't evil.

[ReViliTy]

whatever the plan is, its more than either one gaining a new godly body or turning the god baby into a new kind of archdemon.  Those conclusions are too easy to come up with.  I doubt their going to go with a beowolf type of route with the kid.

This could be a way to challenge the maker, break the circle, and topple the chantry.

Morrigan represents dragon age's story telling.  Actions have consequences, and nothing is simply black or white.  We don't know her full motives or how it has changed over time or will.  What might appear to be evil, could be for a reason some don't understand or agree with.

Modifié par ReViliTy, 31 mars 2010 - 06:32 .

[Fading]

I think it's a real testament to the lore created in Dragon Age that so many logical paths for the story can spin out of a vague option. I had read part of a blog where the guy thought Morrigan and Flemmeth were part of a Dragon Cult, explaining Morrigan's odd eyes, and Flemeth's high dragon transformation. It would even explain her hatred of all things chantry, yet no snide comments when talking about the Old Gods. My guess is something that lies inbetween all of the above.


When I romanced Morrigan, I found her to be her mother's daughter at first, but change subtely over time. I think when she first joined she was Flemeth's willing puppet. That as much as she might have distrusted Flemeth, she was still her mother, and Flemeth's view points on power and survival were the only she knew. Then as you adventured along with her and offered her her first compliments, gifts, and true signs of friendship/love, that Morrigan truely valued it. There are a few times when you thank her (like after the dark ritual, before the arch demon fight), and her face contorts as she's pained by the thought of a companion/lover giving her such a heart found statement knowing she will leave them. It's just that throughout the game Morrigan knew what she had to do (leave with the child, for Flemeth at first, for herself later), and that's why she kept shutting you out, to keep you from feeling pain as much as keeping herself from feeling pain when you eventually had to part forever.

As for the plan, I'm going with Morrigan taking a twist on Flemeth's. Either the two of them were Dragon Cult members given the task of retrieving one of the Old Gods, or it was solely Flemeth's plan for a new body (both equally possible). However, I think Morrigan honestly changed. Where I think she was privy to the plan and dark ritual at the beginning (which she admits), and plays her part willingly to do her mother's bidding, I think her learning of her mother's eventual betrayal, and the PC's affection changed how she played things out. When she found out Flemeth planned on kicking her out of her own body (which I believe Morrigan honestly didn't know about, but possibly Flemeth knew she'd find out) Morrigan decided not to do her mother's biddings. I think Morrigan just wanted the kid with no ulterior motive. She just wanted to revive an Old God, raise it to her views of right and wrong, and let it do as it will. I don't think body swapping, or possessions are involved.

That in and of itself is where I think the second game can pick up. Morrigan turns out to be wrong, raised the child in a way that it ends up hating life, and she returns to the PC to seek his help in stopping the child (which she also stipulates you are not to harm). The child raises a Darkspawn army, and is the ultimate threat you deal with in Dragon Age 2. It fits with the moral choice bill as well, do you attempt to redeem your own child with Morrigan at the world's risk? Or do you kill your own child, and kill yourself as it's soul flees towards your Grey Warden taint. I think it's too early to see a returning Flemeth tho, I'd more expect her return for the 3rd game, when she's had time to find a new body and better regain her strength. Tho...there is one teeny tiny problem with my idea...if your not male it kills that idea...unless the game just assumes the other male grey warden had the child and Morrigan seeks out the person she trusts most (if you're a girl) rather than the father (if you're a male).

Modifié par Fading, 07 avril 2010 - 07:29 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Whatever Flemeth's original plan might have been, I think Morrigan merely seeks to raise a reborn god and hold sway over the child as his mother and advisor. Much in the style of Morgause or Morgan le Fay and the child Mordred in Arthurian legend.

[wickedwizzard01]

Ulquiorra 4 Esparda wrote:

One question remains, what does the dark ritual do? In essense it could remove the taint from the blood but still attract the archdemon, as she said she wanted to have an untainted old god, and unless you don't believe her, she wouldn't have the baby if it was going to be tainted. In essense its a matter of if you believe morrigan in this fact or not.

2. Is it the fact that she didn't get what she wanted? Perhaps it also has a little to do with not wanting to see the person she love die a horrible death (having an old gods soul destroy your own doesn't sound pleasant...).

3. Pure conjecture, neither right nor wrong but there is little reason to believe that outcome over any other.



Your not necessarily wrong, but there are more factors that noone other then the writers at bioware actually know to make a definitive prediction on this issue.



Personally I am hoping that there is a conflict between Morrigans desire for power and her love for, and the influence provided by, the player character, with the possibility of turning her to a better path (ala. Revan + Bastilla). Honestly what I saw in the romance arc with Morrigan was a person with a small flicker of compassion buried under years of psychological abuse from Flemeth.









I believe Morrigan is in conflict with her own feelings for the warden since she tells the warden the night before the battle that

1. she love s the warden

2. she has to do the ritual coz Flemeth told her to do the ritual (she said"i can't let what i feel interfere with what i have to do")

That said i think her feelings for the warden are genuine and sincere but she is Brainwashed by Flemeth and that's why she still continues with the ritual

after all i have never seen her lie (but shes not telling you everything either)

and in the final screens it said that she feels sorrow and regret

wich makes me think she really cares for the warden but for some reason she has to do the ritual

and if you paid attention to what happens in the game and what Morrigan tells you

it is ALL Flemeths plan, just maybe she doesn't know everything either?

and she is basicly flying blind on Flemmeth´s words.

[Daneres]

(sigh) This was the part of Dragon Age: Origins (the only part) that I didn't like, that turned me off from the game a lot. I still love it and play it to no end, but this whole Morrigan pretending to be a friend, but not actually being a friend, whose only there to have sex with you (if you're a guy) or with Alistair (if you're a girl - which disgusts me beyond words because I always romance him) is just (and sorry David Gaider, I think you're a genius, but this is...no) the worst storyline twist in a fantasy series (books or games). As a male character, sure, it's all good: you have sex with a hot chick and knock her up without having to bear any responsibility for the child, but as girl, no, it is just the most horrific thing ever - to me anyway. That you have to let (not only let, but convince him to yourself) the man you love **** some evil skank (who you know is evil as just look at what she "disapproves" of in the game) and give her some demonic child so that both you and he can live in the end and still be with each other when this is all over. No, it's just wrong. If this were real life I would never do such a thing, let my boyfriend sleep with another woman and have a child with her, let alone an evil child that will probably wreak havoc upon the world in the future, and when I play my characters I pretty much play as myself, so there you have it.

[Daneres]

Bother me so much it does that I have opted to let Alistair die at the end of each and every game I play. My first playthrough my girl ran off with him to the Grey Wardens and I plan to do one ending with Alistair as King and my girl his Queen, but that's it. I've posted it on other threads (lol, people might be rolling their eyes by now) but after playing Awakening and being introduced to the Anders and Nathaniel characters, Alistair honestly doesn't appeal to me as much as he once did. lol And I realize I may take some heat for this from we Alistair fans, but I do find Anders and Nathaniel to be more interesting characters, stronger, less naive, with an endless amount of possibilites to come out of their characters. Alistair is sweet and adorable but so are Anders and Nathaniel in their own way...and what more is their to learn about Alistair...he's the son of King Maric, he doesn't want to be king but shows signs that this declaration isn't actually the case, dutiful as he is, willing to do the bidding of everyone around him when it's clear that they don't really care about him, he doesn't like or trust that biatch Morrigan but he's still willing to sleep with her and give her a demon baby. No, I got over Alistair quite quickly after meeting Anders and Nathaniel in Awakening, lol, which is why I am hoping they become romanceable in the future somehow. If not, well then I will contiue to play new characters and then just be done with the games.

[Daneres]

Myself, personally, I never liked Morrigan from the beginning. I knew she couldn't be trusted, and I presume that she isn't entirely human. All she talks about is power and how it is the only thing that has meaning and she makes it clear that there is nothing she won't do to have it and to keep it. I don't believe anything good can come from her character and I do so hope that she will be killable in future games, as it pissed me off tremendously that she was the only companion throughout the game that you absolutely could not kill or even be rid of. Everything she says to your character is a lie and a manipulation, and I have decided not to kill Flemeth for her ever again. Whatever their ultimate plan is, evil as they both are, I believe when Morrigan asks you to kill Flemeth its not for the reason she gives you, that she won't allow her body to be taken. I believe that destroying Flemeth's current body is exactly what they want, especially if you do the dark ritual with Morrigan, which, as a female, I will never do again.

[Daneres]

I am not a Morrigan fan - can you tell, lol - and I would like nothing more than to have my character drive a sword right through her heart and then cut off her head just to be sure she's dead. I don't like scheming, manipulative people in reality (I have known WAY too many of them in real life) and being a fantasy fan (books and games) I tend to hate characters who are such. Even in my own writings these people always meet a messy, messy end. lol I actually created a Morrigan-esque character in one of my stories after playing Dragon Age just so I could kill her off and have closure. I felt a lot better. And hey, I'm ready and willing to kill Alistair as well. As long as my girl continues on living it doesn't matter who she once slept with. lol There will always be more men out there (at least I hope so) in the Dragon Age universe.