141 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

Okay, since we're talking about recent games, I'll compare it to NWN2, Oblivion, Morrowind, and Fallout 3...which excludes perhaps the greatest CRPG's ever, the holy trinity of Planescape: Torment, Fallout 2, and Baldur's Gate 2, as well as the ancient but brilliant Ultima Underworld games. I’m evaluating NWN2 solely as singleplayer games here, which is a bit unfair. I’ve had great fun in persistent worlds, but DA:O and others can’t compete there, so I’m leaving that out. I’m also excluding hybrid shooters that I don’t feel have quite enough RPG elements, like Bioshock (though it’s a genre I LOVE).



I find it hard to give an overall rating to games that all have their strengths, so I'm going to rank them by elements. Overall, DA:O is very good and in some ways outstanding compared to its peers.



Graphics:

Fallout 3: The wasteland looks just like it ought to

Dragon Age: Origins - I don’t understand the criticsm of the game’s graphics. Maybe I'm being biased by the fact that on my rig I can play it at 1680x1050 with textures and details high and 4x AA without problems which I was not able to do on Oblivion when it came out…not sure if I can now.

TES IV: Oblivion

TES III: Morrowind – had eye-opening graphics when it came out

Neverwinter Nights 2 -



Setting:

TES III: Morrowind – I really liked the setting with its echoes of colonialism and throngs of different factions with uncertain motives.

Dragon Age: Origins – I like the ways in which it breaks from the mold and presents more realistic (i.e. not alignment-based) sociopolitical setting, including a powerful, morally ambiguous church.

Fallout 3 – The wasteland is still compelling, but lacks the depth of Fallout 2.

Neverwinter Nights 2: I’ve never really understood the appeal of the Forgotten Realms.

TES IV: Oblivion – Cyrodiil is a disappointingly generic fantasy kingdom, particularly following the richness of Morrowind.



Writing

Dragon Age: Origins – Superlative characterizations, the best since Planescape: Torment.

Neverwinter Nights 2 – Generally good, an improvement over the original.

Fallout 3 – Very solid though not quite up to its predecessors.

TES III: Morrowind: It has its moments—Crassius Curio is hysterical

TES IV: Oblivion: Writing? What writing?



Storyline

Honestly, I’m tired of every game having to be about saving the world. Would it be too much to ask one CRPG to come up with a different story? That said…

Dragon Age: Origins – Well thought-out and executed.

Fallout 3 – Gets extra points for trying to tell a story and allow the player full freedom to explore…doesn’t do it quite as well as Fallout 2, but no game does.

Neverwinter Nights 2 – Good, if predictable.

TES III: Morrowind – The main plot is pretty barren, though the gradual filling of the towns with loonies is fun.

TES IV: Probably a little unfair. It’s not so much that the story is bad is that if you do it the way you’re supposed to, you have to suffer through all those oblivion gates, and they’re all pretty much the same. The mind-numbing repetition pretty much killed the game for me.



Combat/Game Mechanics

TES IV: Oblivion: This was definitely it’s biggest strength. Smooth, easy to understand and control.

Fallout 3: Satisfying blend of shooter and an intriguing use of turn-based combat in a 3-D environment.

TES III: Solid.

Dragon Age: Origins: Okay, I know everybody else in the world seems to love these pausable real-time squad-based games, but I’ve yet to see one in which combat was not a chore. If I have to control multiple characters, give me a turn-based game and full control of what they do, not this awful hybrid where I have to contend with A.I. pathfinding etc. DA:O’s implementation is better than most, but I have no idea why they made the pace so frenetic that I feel like if I’m distracted for 2 seconds a character will die.

Neverwinter Nights 2: I found the interface rather awkward.

[ThomasRipley]

@maxernst:
I run DA with the same graphic options as you and you won't make me believe that you didn't stop at least once and thought "What a terribly blurry texture!", I know I did.
Of course it's due to the long developement of the game and it's not game breaking or anything but it's not something you can willingly ignore(even with the rest masterfully done)...

And for Oblivion I'm not sure to this day that the writing was this bad. I sometimes wonder if the terrible voice acting was not the reason for the impression of dullness of the spoken dialogues(after all there are a few really interesting quests like the dark brotherhood or the thief guild).
As for the "generic universe", you can always install mods to change that impression but if you speak only of the vanilla game I can't agree more.

As for turn based combat I'm not sure we will ever see that again but I thought DA did its job rather well(I think you can blame the frenetic pace on the console port, after all they can only control the main character). Finally putting the rogue to use with backstabbing was a great design decision!

Strange that you didn't include Mass Effect in your comparison. Is it because it's not fantasy?

Modifié par ThomasRipley, 14 janvier 2010 - 03:44 .

[Noobius_Maximo]

It's a damn better RPG than Fallout 3.

[JohnnyR0xx0rz]

This is the best RPG I've played since Eschalon book 1.

[maxernst]

TR, I didn't play Mass Effect...perhaps I should have, but somehow I wasn't paying attention when it came out, I guess. When I refer to Cyrodiil as generic, it's not the visuals that I'm talking about, but the society, so a mod that changes the appearance of things won't satisfy me. Completely fan-made modules are a different story and the game is so mechanically sound that I can well believe that they could be great. But if we consider those, then NWN2 kicks the butt of any of the other games. No A.I. in the world can compete with a game with a live GM.



As far as the writing in Oblivion, it's not actually so much that it's bad as that there's so little of it. There's probably less text in that game than in any CRPG since the Might & Magic games...there's just not enough for you to really fashion much of a character. I remember when it came out that people blamed it on the decision to use voice-over for all dialogue, but DA:O has proven that you can do that (and with vastly better voice acting), have plenty of talk and still fit on a single disc. Granted, it doesn't have as much text as Planescape: Torment (don't know if we'll ever see a game like that again), but you have much more of an opportunity to define yourself.



There are some interesting quests in Oblivion, but I found that it was one of those games where there needed to be different ways of accomplishing them and there weren't. but really what killed the game for me was all those stupid Oblivion gates.

[ThomasRipley]

@maxernst:

You should play Mass Effect, it would score well on all the factors you described(except maybe for the vehicle phases outside of the main plot that were quite terrible). As for the lack of choices in Oblivion, wasn't it the same in Morrowind? Of course Morrowind had far more lore and raw text, making simply reading a book fascinating but I don't remember much choices in the actual quests(then again I played it quite some time ago).



And wow I just noticed(thanks to Shavon) that I forgot Kotor in my list. I've played it so much that I nearly forgot about it. Probably the best plot twist in a video game and the best teammate(HK-47).

Kotor 2 was ok but clearly unfinished...

[akkaze]

@maxernst: I agree, you should try Mass Effect. I can understand someone who is into BG-style gaming disliking the action-style engine - but as a real Sci Fi sci fi game, its fantastic.



Kotor was amazing. Kotor 2 was so cool until the end which was such a let down it left me really angry lol. sigh. very sad.

[Kjarista]

I usually don't play story games because I find them too restrictive. I prefer sandbox games. As a story game, DA:O is probably one of the best, but it's certainly not my favorite RPG, which for me is either Morrowind or Fallout 3.

[elys]

akkaze wrote...

@maxernst: I agree, you should try Mass Effect. I can understand someone who is into BG-style gaming disliking the action-style engine - but as a real Sci Fi sci fi game, its fantastic.

Kotor was amazing. Kotor 2 was so cool until the end which was such a let down it left me really angry lol. sigh. very sad.

Yup Mass Effect is nice sci-gi adventure to play.

I think exactly than you about the Kotor serie. Too bad Kotor 2 end parts were rushed/unfinished.

Are you gonna try SW:TOR online ?

[Haplose]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

jimbo91291 wrote...

ok, im not a HUGE rpg player, but what about the elder scrolls oblivion? that was such a massive massive game, so much to do. so much work. hundreds of side quests and a long main quest. not trying to patronize anyone, im seriously wondering, is that not a respected rpg?

I can't speak for anyone else, but the problem I had with it is that it did not feel like the characters in it had...character.  They felt like quest dispensors more than actual people, and didn't really feel like a world that I was interacting with as a character, hence I don't feel that it's as much a roleplay game as a sandbox. 

Exactly. No character, no personality, just robots in human textures. I really hated the game system too (character development, magic system, combat).
Plus Oblivion wasn't massive at all. It was a huge stepback compared with Morrowind. If you compare these games, Oblivion is actually small. The game system also is a dumbed-down version of Morrowind. Where is flight for example? What the heck happened to enchanting, why is it so limited?
Only thing it does better then Morrowind is graphics, everything else is inferior.

If you really like sandbox games, get Gothic 3 instead (NOT the expansion, which was made by another studio!) and make sure you patch it to the latest Community made patch (1.73 I think?). With the patch the game is finally playable, looks great and, if you like an open world and a bit more "up and personal" combat, fun. I also found it quite challenging. I dislike the magic system though and, if you play a mage, it apparently gets very boring and repetetive fast.

But more on topic.
For me DA:O cannot compete with the best cRPGs of all time: Planescape:Torment and Fallouts (1&2).
But it is slightly better then the famous BG2.

For newer titles try KOTOR (probably most similar to DA:O, but in StarWars setting... which is really a mix of fantasy and sci-fi) and... hmm... maybe The Witcher EE (some love it, some hate it.... I think it's really good... and the world atmosphere is second only to PS:T and Fallouts).
You might try NWN1 or NWN2, but I'm not sure how you will like these games. NWN1 does some things better, while NWN2 is better at others. Both offer extremly rich character building options - something I miss in DA:O. NWN1 is still King of multiplayer cRPG gameplay with numerous custom made modules and Persistant World servers with live Game Masters. These games alone could ensure many years of entertainment, especially online - if you're into it.

Mass Effect? Meh. Can't accept an fps shooter as an RPG, regardless how deep story and/or atmosphere it has. Similarly Jade Empire felt way too arcade-y. I managed to get through 2 or 3 fights I believe, then I gave up on it.

Modifié par Haplose, 14 janvier 2010 - 10:51 .

[akkaze]

elys wrote...

Yup Mass Effect is nice sci-gi adventure to play.

I think exactly than you about the Kotor serie. Too bad Kotor 2 end parts were rushed/unfinished.

Are you gonna try SW:TOR online ?

See this is why I'm finding threads like this one so interesting. Different people really do gravitate to different types of rpgs, even tho we all love rpgs in the abstract. The poster immediately above says Mass Effect was too arcadey, however great the story. In my personal case, although I'm not a FPS nut, I enjoy them well enough - and Mass Effect had a nice combination of tactical combat (lots of special abilities to use and difficult combats to "solve"), and what I personally class as a "true scifi" plot, ie. one with actual real science fiction ideas in it and not just a bangbang action story with lasers instead of six-shooters or swords.

As far as SW:TOR is concerned? I have to be honest, MMOs leave me cold. I will admit I was addicted to multiplayer NWN at one point, and I did genuinely have some great times in some NWN worlds. But overall, MMOs seem to be a huge time investment which I can't really justify; and the ratio of really good rp to waiting around, or grinding, or being griefed by so-and-sos who wouldn't know roleplaying if it slapped them with a wet fish - I don't know, that plus the ongoing charges just don't attract me. If I had infinite time, maybe I would feel differently. As things stand though, I'm a sucker for a good story, and it doesn't really matter to me if it's a bit "on rails" like Mass Effect or Dragon Age.

I know some people here are the opposite, and find heavily plotted rpgs restrictive, preferring so-called sandbox games where you can "go anywhere" and "do anything". Again, I think if I had infinite time maybe I could enjoy these games; but right now, Oblivion for example just leaves me cold. I'll take a well-crafted story and rich characterization (eg. DAO) over sandbox any day.

As I said though, it is interesting to read what other people are attracted to and why.

Again, I'd just like to repeat - if you like science fiction novels, and the notion of FPS isn't objectionable to you, you owe it to yourself to give Mass Effect a spin.

Oh yeah, Jade Empire. I so wanted to like this game. I've had maybe three tries at it over the past year or so. But I never could maintain interest longer than a few hours. Am I missing something? It really does seem too arcadey to me. Should I persevere? For some reason, I don't know, maybe I'm just not getting the hang of the mechanics of combat, but it just seems "dinky". Someone please convince me otherwise?

[maxernst]

akkaze wrote...

I know some people here are the opposite, and find heavily plotted rpgs restrictive, preferring so-called sandbox games where you can "go anywhere" and "do anything". Again, I think if I had infinite time maybe I could enjoy these games; but right now, Oblivion for example just leaves me cold. I'll take a well-crafted story and rich characterization (eg. DAO) over sandbox any day.

I like story, but I am sometimes frustrated that linear narratives don't allow me to make what seem to be natural choices.  Too often sandbox games allow you to do anything, but lack depth and provide little motivation to do anything.  The reason Fallout 2 will always be one of my favorite games of all time is that I felt it struck a perfect balance:  you had great freedom and especially the freedom to change the outcome of the game.  It was a rich, deep setting that changed over time depending on your choices.  Sadly, its initial release was a buggy mess and it was overshadowed by the first Baldur's Gate game.  I can't think of a subsequent game that combined story and freedom as successfully.  Arcanum probably came closest and that was years ago now.

It does sound like I would like Mass Effect.

[Decho the Dolphin]

My favourite RPGs, in order of preference:

Dragon Age
Fallout 3
Mass Effect
Fallout
Fallout 2

I would include Oblivion because the background is reasonably good but it has perhaps the worst leveling system I have ever seen, any game where walking into a wall for ten minutes is a viable way of leveling up is flawed. I have never played a JRPG which I have enjoyed, but I am open to trying FFXIII, as that does look reasonably good. I should probably play KOTOR sometime too.

Modifié par Decho the Dolphin, 14 janvier 2010 - 03:42 .

[Locke129]

I am relatively new to WRPG. But yes, as far as this generation is concerned Dragon Age is one of the best RPGs. I am generally a JRPG kinda guy but this generation has been lack luster. There are a few gems here and there like Lost Odyssey, Tales of Vesperia and Demon's Souls, but I think Dragon Age is probably one of the better. Mass Effect as well was a great WRPG, BioWare is getting up there to be on of my favorite developers.



I still have KOTOR, BG etc., to play on the PC one of these days though.

[Spectre_Moncy]

DA: O > ME 1 > KoToR 1 > KoToR 2

[mike2507]

i recently replayed final fantasy 7 ( on pcsx-emu),and it was still one of the best i ever played

and off cours : morrowind; gothic 3; oblivion (+ a lot of mods ); the witcher ; fallout 3 ( + mods ) risen(i don't know why but did not like it)