256 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Jaulen wrote...

One book that always comes to mind when I am thinking about the ME3 ending and what they MAY have been trying to accomplish is Sea of Glass by Barry Longyear.

Dystopian, dark....protagonist that has to make a decision at the end when he finds out the truth of the machine he has been struggling against.....

That was done well.

It was not done well in ME3. If there had been more (better?) hints about the Starchild in other games.....then Starchild would have made more sense....and probably not been as impalpable as it was to many.

The whole synthesis option should never have been included.....it makes no logical or scientific sense as set in a Sci-Fi story.

I'll have to read that book but yes, exactly the point.  The elements of other stories may exist here, but not in some coherent cohesive sense that fits with this story.  Nor is it even handled well as there's no real reason for Shepard to want to solve the kid's/reaper's/leviathan's problem.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Also polls on the internet regarding the ending are the equivalent of standing outside of a gun store and asking how people feel about gun ownership laws. You're only going to get traffic from people who are specifically biased on that opinion in the first place. These polls are not representative of any subset of people who played Mass Effect at large. The only real metric would be something that polled everyone who played the ending as soon as they finished it. That doesn't exist. The closest thing to it would probably the EC's rating in the XBOX Live marketplace, whatever that is.

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

This is actually a very interesting situation. I wonder if it could be turned into a marketing thesis. What does the customer really think about my product/brand? The holy grail of marketing (according to my professor).

And Bioware claims to have conclusive data about what their customers want and what they thought about the ending. Did they do a survey themselves that I'm not aware of or are they just trying to read the tea leaves?

My best guess is that they are data-mining using Origins and then interpreting the raw data with a huge helping of wishful thinking.  Ask  President Romney how far wishful thinking goes when it comes to interpreting data in this way.  Not trying to be political but trying to make a point to Bioware assuming they are bothering to read this.

The evidence is overwhelming that the endings did not go down well, and that it will continue to be a sore spot with your customers until the actual endings are properly addressed.  It is equally clear that while the EC helped some, it wasn't sufficient.

-Polaris

[Hexley UK]

JamesFaith wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

So in politics, less then 100 people are enough to show political opinions of country of several million people living in it, but in video games sample of 1000's and 10,000's of couple of million costumers is not valid?

Can someone explain me how and why this works this way?

OK, I try.

First, political samples are much larger, definitely more then thousand, but most important is that they are representative. They are chosing respondent so all major cathegories are present - male x females, families x singles, employers x bussinessmen, basic school x university, different regions and so on.

My teacher of sociology on university told us great example how irreleant are results without this preparation. Group of his students made poll about political opinion in one city. They got more then 200 respondents and result was more then 20% for Christian democrats - which was shocking because they regulary getting only about 6 or 8% in my country. But students cared about gender, education a work criteria so where was mistake? Explanation was easy - they forgot about place. This poll was made on Sunday near church.

And place is quite improtant in many of these polls. Truly, how many people with positive opinion on ME3 would watch You tube video from guy who was constantly bashing it? Or visit thread with title "Why ME3 sucks" and vote in its poll? Or answer in poll with insulting options?

Without creating some starting criteria, good constructed questions and other things results simply have less value.

But surely people who frequent this board and buy the games are MORE likely to like it?

[Reap_ii]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...
wizard of oz was known of by dorothy.  getting to the wizard was her entire motivation, cuz she wanted to get home.  Bioware broke new ground with this bad idea.  nice try, broski, but not good enough. 

And the Reaper Cycle was known by Shepard. The Catalyst isn't a "character". It's a mechanism. It's not a villain or a "hero", it's an instruction manual and infodump. It fills the same role as Vigil from ME1.

the Catalyst is not the villain?  he controls the reapers...he is the reapers.  i would say he is the villain.  i dont think your opinions on this are valid, because they seem to be uninformed opinions. 

[IanPolaris]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Also polls on the internet regarding the ending are the equivalent of standing outside of a gun store and asking how people feel about gun ownership laws. You're only going to get traffic from people who are specifically biased on that opinion in the first place. These polls are not representative of any subset of people who played Mass Effect at large. The only real metric would be something that polled everyone who played the ending as soon as they finished it. That doesn't exist. The closest thing to it would probably the EC's rating in the XBOX Live marketplace, whatever that is.

Except if you watch the video ALL the polls including the ones that correct for self-correction and other problems of the internet, and even all the non-internet polls (even polls sponsered by outlets that are highly pro-EA such as IGN) have all showed the same results.  Even after the EC, approximately 60-70% of the customers remain dissastisfied (to some degree) with the endings and how Bioware has handled it.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  If it were just a matter of scientific polling and correctly getting the sample space correct (which is very important), then you should see at least one public poll that would show what Bioware is claiming.  I have seen nary a one.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 février 2013 - 07:11 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Reap_ii wrote...
the Catalyst is not the villain?  he controls the reapers...he is the reapers.  i would say he is the villain.  i dont think your opinions on this are valid, because they seem to be uninformed opinions. 

A "villain" or "antagonist" has to oppose the hero in some way. The Catalyst never does this in any capacity to Shepard. It shows up to tell Shepard how the Crucible works, gives a little infodump on the Reapers, and then disappears. 

[Slappy Ya Face]

The polls are pretty consistent.

[IanPolaris]

Slappy Ya Face wrote...

The polls are pretty consistent.

Exactly.  When multiple polls from multiple sources tell you the same thing, those polls are probably measuring a real effect.

-Polaris

[SurfaceBeneath]

IanPolaris wrote...
Except if you watch the video ALL the polls including the ones that correct for self-correction and other problems of the internet, and even all the non-internet polls (even polls sponsered by outlets that are highly pro-EA such as IGN) have all showed the same results.  Even after the EC, approximately 60-70% of the customers remain dissastisfied (to some degree) with the endings and how Bioware has handled it.

Wrong. None of these polls self correct at all or follow any actual proper polling procedures. It doesn't matter how often you do these polls, the majority of people specifically dissatisfied with the ending are looking for them and then linking their friends who are also dissatisfied with the ending to them. People who generally are fine with the endings are simply not motivated to represent themselves, as they frankly have no reason to. People who HATE the endings on the other hand feel like their opinions are not being heard and continually vote in them. That's how you're getting the discrepencies, as simple as that.

[Reap_ii]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...
the Catalyst is not the villain?  he controls the reapers...he is the reapers.  i would say he is the villain.  i dont think your opinions on this are valid, because they seem to be uninformed opinions. 

A "villain" or "antagonist" has to oppose the hero in some way. The Catalyst never does this in any capacity to Shepard. It shows up to tell Shepard how the Crucible works, gives a little infodump on the Reapers, and then disappears. 

in the conversation, he tells us he controls the reapers.  he started the cycles.  i dont see how on earth you can just consider him an infodump.  i think you should re-watch or read the dialouge from that scene.  you will see your argument lacks merit.

[Mathias]

Bioware not wanting to change the ending is one thing (and a bad thing it is), but it's when they start BSing us on Twitter saying they got their own super special data showing that haters are the minority, is where they need to stop. They've been caught in so many lies, it baffles me that they're still doing it.

Any data that can actually be seen by the public eye, has consistently shown that the majority of fans still hate the ending. However Bioware claims that the have other data that proves others, however they aren't willing to show it.

Do I REALLY need to explain what's wrong with this picture?

Here's the difference:

We back up our claims with evidence.
They back up their claims by wanting us to take their word for it.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 25 février 2013 - 07:21 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Reap_ii wrote...
in the conversation, he tells us he controls the reapers.  he started the cycles.  i dont see how on earth you can just consider him an infodump.  i think you should re-watch or read the dialouge from that scene.  you will see your argument lacks merit.

I understand what it said perfectly well. It devised the Reaper Cycle to solve the problem its creators gave it. However the moment the Crucible has been built and plugged into the Citadel, the Catalyst is now IRRELEVANT as it has effectively been defeated before you ever met it. From that point on it is simply an infodump. Throughout the 3 games, Shepard has been fighting against the Reaper Cycle. The introduction of the Catalyst as the mechanism that started that Cycle doesn't change anything. It just added new information about the reason the Cycle exists. 

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 25 février 2013 - 07:22 .

[Hexley UK]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Bioware not wanting to change the ending is one thing (and a bad thing it is), but it's when they start BSing us on Twitter saying they got their own super special data showing that haters are the minority, is where they need to stop. They've been caught in so many lies, it baffles me that they're still doing it.

Any data that can actually be seen by the public eye, has consistently shown that the majority of fans still hate the ending. However Bioware claims that the have other data that proves others, however they aren't willing to show it.

Do I REALLY need to explain what's wrong with this picture?

Hey I have a magic Dragon in my closet.....but your not allowed to see it...nobody is....still believe me?

[Allasae]

Arcian wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Here's the thing. The sample set everyone is using is incredibly biased. Only a small portion of ME3 players will engage in the media outside of the video game. Answering long surveys with misleading questions and creating accounts on online forums (cough BSN) aren't things that normal fans would do. We represent a small portion of the fans here. Only a few will read the online forums overall, and even fewer will create an account, and even fewer will post/vote.

>Complains about people pulling statistics out of ass
>Pulls statistics out of ass

^ this. 

Modifié par Allasae, 25 février 2013 - 07:22 .

[Ykulnu]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...
the Catalyst is not the villain?  he controls the reapers...he is the reapers.  i would say he is the villain.  i dont think your opinions on this are valid, because they seem to be uninformed opinions. 

A "villain" or "antagonist" has to oppose the hero in some way. The Catalyst never does this in any capacity to Shepard. It shows up to tell Shepard how the Crucible works, gives a little infodump on the Reapers, and then disappears. 

So what you're saying is that the intelligence controlling the Reapers and giving them a reason to commit genocide is not opposing Shepard? ...waht?

[IanPolaris]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Except if you watch the video ALL the polls including the ones that correct for self-correction and other problems of the internet, and even all the non-internet polls (even polls sponsered by outlets that are highly pro-EA such as IGN) have all showed the same results.  Even after the EC, approximately 60-70% of the customers remain dissastisfied (to some degree) with the endings and how Bioware has handled it.

Wrong. None of these polls self correct at all or follow any actual proper polling procedures. It doesn't matter how often you do these polls, the majority of people specifically dissatisfied with the ending are looking for them and then linking their friends who are also dissatisfied with the ending to them. People who generally are fine with the endings are simply not motivated to represent themselves, as they frankly have no reason to. People who HATE the endings on the other hand feel like their opinions are not being heard and continually vote in them. That's how you're getting the discrepencies, as simple as that.

Actually there is one quoted that at least does to some degree (watch the video again).  However, if it were just a matter of proper sampling, then why haven't we seen a scientific poll that shows what bioware has claimed.  One such poll would hardly break the bank, and it would go a long way to quiet dissenters, yet we haven't seen it.

My guess is that Bioware HAS conducted such polls (via their Origins software) and they don't like (or don't believe) the results they are getting.

-Polaris

[Applepie_Svk]

Allasae wrote...

Arcian wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Here's the thing. The sample set everyone is using is incredibly biased. Only a small portion of ME3 players will engage in the media outside of the video game. Answering long surveys with misleading questions and creating accounts on online forums (cough BSN) aren't things that normal fans would do. We represent a small portion of the fans here. Only a few will read the online forums overall, and even fewer will create an account, and even fewer will post/vote.

>Complains about people pulling statistics out of ass
>Pulls statistics out of ass

^ this. 

seems legit... LoL 

[Reap_ii]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...
in the conversation, he tells us he controls the reapers.  he started the cycles.  i dont see how on earth you can just consider him an infodump.  i think you should re-watch or read the dialouge from that scene.  you will see your argument lacks merit.

I understand what it said perfectly well. It devised the Reaper Cycle to solve the problem its creators gave it. However the moment the Crucible has been built and plugged into the Citadel, the Catalyst is now IRRELEVANT as it has effectively been defeated before you ever met it. From that point on it is simply an infodump. 

so, if you refuse, he is irrelevant?  no, he is not.  so he is still in control and the war rages until shepard makes a decision.  also, by your argument, he is irrelevant before he is even introduced into the story.  nonsense.

[JamesFaith]

Hexley UK wrote...

But surely people who frequent this board and buy the games are MORE likely to like it?

Not necessarily.

As I wrote here before, there were big income of people with one opinion on BSN after ME3 - people with negative one. When people who love, like and be OK with ME3 and never visit BSN before still have no reason to come here, the second group was looking for place where they can complain about there frustration.

And lets be honest how many new visitors with positive opinion would stay on BSN in first months after releasing of ME3, when they opened BSN site and first page is full of anti-ending threads and rare positives one are nasty flamed? 

If I exaggerate it on example it was like make pub sign We hate Budweisser, where everyone loudly proclaimed his hate to this beer and then make poll here about popularity of it.

[Hexley UK]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Also polls on the internet regarding the ending are the equivalent of standing outside of a gun store and asking how people feel about gun ownership laws. You're only going to get traffic from people who are specifically biased on that opinion in the first place. These polls are not representative of any subset of people who played Mass Effect at large. The only real metric would be something that polled everyone who played the ending as soon as they finished it. That doesn't exist. The closest thing to it would probably the EC's rating in the XBOX Live marketplace, whatever that is.

So by your reasoning surely people coming out of the "Bioware store" are more likely to love Bioware things no?

Logic 4tw!

[Applepie_Svk]

Still I would like to know how many people have returned their coppies back to Origin, Amazon and Gamestop right after ending fiasco...

[Hexley UK]

JamesFaith wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

But surely people who frequent this board and buy the games are MORE likely to like it?

Not necessarily.

As I wrote here before, there were big income of people with one opinion on BSN after ME3 - people with negative one. When people who love, like and be OK with ME3 and never visit BSN before still have no reason to come here, the second group was looking for place where they can complain about there frustration.

And lets be honest how many new visitors with positive opinion would stay on BSN in first months after releasing of ME3, when they opened BSN site and first page is full of anti-ending threads and rare positives one are nasty flamed? 

If I exaggerate it on example it was like make pub sign We hate Budweisser, where everyone loudly proclaimed his hate to this beer and then make poll here about popularity of it.

Not necessarily.....but far more likely.

Just admit it man...you only have to look at other sites on the internet with news of this new DLC, the discussions of it are FULL of ending hate a year later and before anything of this new DLC has even really been seen.

It isn't just the BSN (which again is VASTLY anti-ending).

[Kleli]

Assuming the people that don't like the ending are not the majority, what would the polls look like if they were? Wouldn't the result be pretty much the same?

[3DandBeyond]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Also polls on the internet regarding the ending are the equivalent of standing outside of a gun store and asking how people feel about gun ownership laws. You're only going to get traffic from people who are specifically biased on that opinion in the first place. These polls are not representative of any subset of people who played Mass Effect at large. The only real metric would be something that polled everyone who played the ending as soon as they finished it. That doesn't exist. The closest thing to it would probably the EC's rating in the XBOX Live marketplace, whatever that is.

The problem with your statement is that people at gun stores want to buy guns so they would be against a lot of the laws.  On this site, more people should be ready to LIKE the endings and should vote for them, not against them.  This is a fan site and a game owner's site, so people should be far more likely to like the game.  The fact that the polls show dissatisfaction speaks volumes.  The comparison would be if you went to a gun show and asked people if they were for background checks and the people mostly voted "yes".  It wouldn't happen.  Or if you went to a Call of Duty website and asked the people there if they liked CoD games better than ME3.  I'd venture a guess most would say they do.  So on this site people should have more of a pro-ending and pro-ME3 bias.

And again, it's more like a targeted audience-the poll samplings vs the numbers of games estimated to have been sold have been very high.  Compare that to even political polling-they may sample 20k people out of tens of millions.  One poll here had a much higher ratio.