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"The Majority of Fans..." - We Don't Know


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#101
Doctor_Jackstraw

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they gave us new endings. We get to see the fate of the universe, of tuchunka, rannoch, and our squad. It was exactly what i wanted from the initial release. (The variations on tuchunka and rannoch are staggering and if you mix them right can paint very unique pictures for the galaxy depending on ending, ems, and choices) The point is that it made our choices matter. IF you're just mad about logic or not liking the choice in story resolution they made, well then you're comicbook guy from the simpsons :(


Theres plenty more illogical things people dont point out in the games. Most of the asari stuff barely has an explanation if at all (Samara's glowy white eyes make no sense, black asari eyes sex never explained either) Also hey i want to just point out that the first episode of star trek the next generation (aka one of the holy grails of nerditude in realistic scifi) starts off with picard versus a space lepricaun.


A doomsday device isnt really that outlandish in the grand scheme of scifi stories.



Edit: About synthesis, its a very similar concept to the geth concensus, project overlord, and javik's mind reading/evolutionary step story elements.  yet that stuff is never explained.  We have no idea how shepard's able to jack into cyberspace or why javik can read minds just by touching, hell both of those feature the green glowing eyes thing seen in synthesis (as does overlord) but i guess people just really hate it because it came out of nowhere and wasnt prevelant in the series beforehand even though it kind of was.  :(   (The circuitboard nervous system was silly looking though)

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 25 février 2013 - 07:34 .


#102
HK-90210

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pirate1802 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Liamv2 wrote...

I don't see why i should care if i am minority or majority as bioware is not changeing the ending either way. Clever noob just needs to move on



#103
IanPolaris

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Basically it comes down to this. If all the polls were BSN self-selecting polls, then some here might have a point, but they aren't. ALL the polling both internet and traditional media (including at least one that at least does try to correct the sample) all show the same thing even when the various sources and various sponsers of the polls are very different (some anti-Bioware but some such as IGN are very pro-EA/Bioware).

When you get this sort of convergence, then the chances are very good that the polls are showing actual, real information.

To put it another way, all Bioware has to do to show their point is release a single scientific poll that shows that the anti-enders are in the minority. A single poll of 100-500 isn't that expensive (certainly not for the like of BIoware and EA) and especially not given that they (Bioware) can mine Origins to get much of the relevant data (which normally is the most arduous and expensive part of polling...the data collecting).

The fact that Bioware hasn't (at least not publically) says volumes especially given their twitter claims.

-Polaris

#104
3DandBeyond

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Hexley UK wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

But surely people who frequent this board and buy the games are MORE likely to like it?


Not necessarily.

As I wrote here before, there were big income of people with one opinion on BSN after ME3 - people with negative one. When people who love, like and be OK with ME3 and never visit BSN before still have no reason to come here, the second group was looking for place where they can complain about there frustration.

And lets be honest how many new visitors with positive opinion would stay on BSN in first months after releasing of ME3, when they opened BSN site and first page is full of anti-ending threads and rare positives one are nasty flamed? 

If I exaggerate it on example it was like make pub sign We hate Budweisser, where everyone loudly proclaimed his hate to this beer and then make poll here about popularity of it.


Not necessarily.....but far more likely.

Just admit it man...you only have to look at other sites on the internet with news of this new DLC, the discussions of it are FULL of ending hate a year later and before anything of this new DLC has even really been seen.

It isn't just the BSN (which again is VASTLY anti-ending).


And time should have eroded this disparity if one existed.  Since it hasn't seemingly done so, that is anecdotal evidence of a problem.  And since paid review sites have been less enthralled with DLC (that they earn no money from) than with the core game (that they do earn money from), that also is anecdotal evidence of a problem. 

Again, let's assume there is an error in polling data and that there are more people that like the endings-how many fans are we looking at here?  Well, say there's a 70/30 divide and they sold a million games (no hard data exists as to games sold vs games returned or games bought used)-you are looking at 300k fans that didn't like the endings.  That's huge. 

#105
3DandBeyond

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IanPolaris wrote...

Basically it comes down to this. If all the polls were BSN self-selecting polls, then some here might have a point, but they aren't. ALL the polling both internet and traditional media (including at least one that at least does try to correct the sample) all show the same thing even when the various sources and various sponsers of the polls are very different (some anti-Bioware but some such as IGN are very pro-EA/Bioware).

When you get this sort of convergence, then the chances are very good that the polls are showing actual, real information.

To put it another way, all Bioware has to do to show their point is release a single scientific poll that shows that the anti-enders are in the minority. A single poll of 100-500 isn't that expensive (certainly not for the like of BIoware and EA) and especially not given that they (Bioware) can mine Origins to get much of the relevant data (which normally is the most arduous and expensive part of polling...the data collecting).

The fact that Bioware hasn't (at least not publically) says volumes especially given their twitter claims.

-Polaris


Yes, secret data is basically non-existent.  It's likely they are basically looking at feedback from people actively playing the game, but that doesn't show how it's being received.  I've shown the ending to other people just so we can get a kind of sad laugh at it-that doesn't mean i'm viewing it because I like it.

The data-mining would likely lead them to conclude people by and large like the MP more than the SP, but it cannot show that people may not like the MP and be willing to dump the SP for it.  I know that a lot of us played it while waiting for the EC-just to keep galactic readiness up or to pass the time.  And I've played it just to get some value out of my xbox game, but I would definitely have preferred a better SP game and ending-I don't need MP and it's no substitute.

#106
sH0tgUn jUliA

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What Bioware did was took these surveys, and completely marginalized the majority on them. They essentially have said through tweets that this is the vocal minority, thus implying that the rest of the copies sold to those who didn't complain about the endings were the "silent majority".

This is a very old tactic used by politicians, certain editorial commentators, and news entertainment companies to marginalize an overwhelmingly large majority of people. It was used 45 years ago to marginalize a majority of Americans who were against the war in Vietnam, and it worked.

So give me a break. I've been on this earth too long to buy into this crap.

#107
JesseLee202

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CleverNoob is just crying because IT is not in the DLC.

#108
macrocarl

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It's totally not worth talking about post ending DLC - it never really was since BW said that it wasn't going to happen and now it's over after the new DLC is out. Sorry but time to move forward and clevernoob needs to too.

#109
K2LU533

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Liamv2 wrote...

I don't see why i should care if i am minority or majority as bioware is not changeing the ending either way. Clever noob just needs to move on



#110
Reorte

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The problem with any poll on the game is that it's going to be rather self-selecting. That immediately rules out the large proportion who bought the game and couldn't care less either way, and there will always be a lot of such people no matter how brilliant or how atrocious something is. In most cases those people will be the majority.

So you can't prove that people who dislike the ending are the majority. I have not seen, however, any reason at all to suspect that the people who like it aren't an even smaller number.

#111
IanPolaris

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macrocarl wrote...

It's totally not worth talking about post ending DLC - it never really was since BW said that it wasn't going to happen and now it's over after the new DLC is out. Sorry but time to move forward and clevernoob needs to too.


I agree there will be no post-ending DLC.  I believe Bioware that much.  I just wish they wouldn't lie about "listening" (or what the majority of their fans want) when in fact the evidence strongly suggests that they are doing no such thing.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 février 2013 - 07:54 .


#112
Hexley UK

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IanPolaris wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

It's totally not worth talking about post ending DLC - it never really was since BW said that it wasn't going to happen and now it's over after the new DLC is out. Sorry but time to move forward and clevernoob needs to too.


I agree there will be no post-ending DLC.  I believe Bioware that much.  I just wish they wouldn't lie about "listening" (or what the majority of their fans want) when in fact the evidence strongly suggests that they are doing no such thing.

-Polaris


Maybe they are listening...they just don't care what the majority want apparently.

#113
macrocarl

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IanPolaris wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

It's totally not worth talking about post ending DLC - it never really was since BW said that it wasn't going to happen and now it's over after the new DLC is out. Sorry but time to move forward and clevernoob needs to too.


I agree there will be no post-ending DLC.  I believe Bioware that much.  I just wish they wouldn't lie about "listening" (or what the majority of their fans want) when in fact the evidence strongly suggests that they are doing no such thing.

-Polaris


I loved the EC and feel that they listened to me. I'm not trying to controdictory but those who have not liked the ending don't like it but there are other groups of players out there (like me) who are super satisfied and happy with how things turned out. I think the plain truth of it is that you can't make everyone happy - I just happen to have lucked out this time around :D

#114
IanPolaris

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Hexley UK wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

It's totally not worth talking about post ending DLC - it never really was since BW said that it wasn't going to happen and now it's over after the new DLC is out. Sorry but time to move forward and clevernoob needs to too.


I agree there will be no post-ending DLC.  I believe Bioware that much.  I just wish they wouldn't lie about "listening" (or what the majority of their fans want) when in fact the evidence strongly suggests that they are doing no such thing.

-Polaris


Maybe they are listening...they just don't care what the majority want apparently.


That is possible but that wasn't what the Bioware reps on Twitter were claiming.  They were claiming that most people liked the endings, and I have never seen any indication or any poll or other survey (formal or informal) that suggests this is anything close to accurate.

-Polaris

#115
Redbelle

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macrocarl wrote...

It's totally not worth talking about post ending DLC - it never really was since BW said that it wasn't going to happen and now it's over after the new DLC is out. Sorry but time to move forward and clevernoob needs to too.


I've moved on to consider that the ending, it's lack of annoucement from any of the professional game journalism organisation's, and the way anti ender's have been ignored and marginalised, is part of a bigger problem inherent, not only in the matter of ME3's ending, but also in how we as consumer's receive information about game's.

Perhap's it's better to provide the link to the article's that point's to these issues.

whatculture.com/gaming/mass-effect-3-blurring-the-journalism-in-games-journalism.php

and

www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/10/26/all-the-pretty-doritos-how-video-game-journalism-went-off-the-rails/

I used to think my relationship with game maker's was pretty simple. I like a game a dev make's and I buy it. Turn's out that's only scratching the surface.

#116
Hexley UK

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IanPolaris wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

It's totally not worth talking about post ending DLC - it never really was since BW said that it wasn't going to happen and now it's over after the new DLC is out. Sorry but time to move forward and clevernoob needs to too.


I agree there will be no post-ending DLC.  I believe Bioware that much.  I just wish they wouldn't lie about "listening" (or what the majority of their fans want) when in fact the evidence strongly suggests that they are doing no such thing.

-Polaris


Maybe they are listening...they just don't care what the majority want apparently.


That is possible but that wasn't what the Bioware reps on Twitter were claiming.  They were claiming that most people liked the endings, and I have never seen any indication or any poll or other survey (formal or informal) that suggests this is anything close to accurate.

-Polaris


Nobody has, it's pure smoke and mirrors....you know LYING but in a corporate way...which is fine apparently.

#117
Cobretti ftw

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Yeah well, I'm not a clevernoob fan either, but point me to one poll that says a majority of players liked the endings.


This

#118
IanPolaris

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macrocarl wrote...

I loved the EC and feel that they listened to me. I'm not trying to controdictory but those who have not liked the ending don't like it but there are other groups of players out there (like me) who are super satisfied and happy with how things turned out. I think the plain truth of it is that you can't make everyone happy - I just happen to have lucked out this time around :D


Bully for you, but that so isn't the point.  There will be some that like the EC and some that loathe it.  What I thought we were talking about was Bioware's CLAIM that more people liked the post EC endings than didn't like them, and there isn't a shred of evidence for that near as I can tell (and a lot of evidence that strongly suggests that Bioware is lying).

-Polaris

#119
CronoDragoon

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IanPolaris wrote...
That is possible but that wasn't what the Bioware reps on Twitter were claiming.  They were claiming that most people liked the endings, and I have never seen any indication or any poll or other survey (formal or informal) that suggests this is anything close to accurate.

-Polaris


Where did they say that? The tweets I saw were claiming that fans wanting new endings are not the majority, which is an entirely different claim.

#120
IanPolaris

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CronoDragoon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That is possible but that wasn't what the Bioware reps on Twitter were claiming.  They were claiming that most people liked the endings, and I have never seen any indication or any poll or other survey (formal or informal) that suggests this is anything close to accurate.

-Polaris


Where did they say that? The tweets I saw were claiming that fans wanting new endings are not the majority, which is an entirely different claim.


No it isn't an entirely different claim.  If you don't want a new ending then you like (or at least are satisfied) with the ending you have.  There is not a shred of evidence that this is true for the majority of the customers.

-Polaris

#121
Hexley UK

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CronoDragoon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That is possible but that wasn't what the Bioware reps on Twitter were claiming.  They were claiming that most people liked the endings, and I have never seen any indication or any poll or other survey (formal or informal) that suggests this is anything close to accurate.

-Polaris


Where did they say that? The tweets I saw were claiming that fans wanting new endings are not the majority, which is an entirely different claim.


And an equally dubious and hilarious one.

#122
NeonFlux117

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At this point, who really cares. Enjoy the game or don't. Play the game or don't. Buy the DLC or don't.

Who cares???

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 25 février 2013 - 08:11 .


#123
devSin

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Here's the thing. Understand statistics.

Also, the entire topic is irrelevant. As a game owner, you have the right to your opinion and to express that opinion within the site rules.

So perhaps instead of engaging in arguments over who's right and who's wrong and who's in the majority and who's in the minority, simply state your own opinion, and let others worry about theirs.

#124
3DandBeyond

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Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

they gave us new endings. We get to see the fate of the universe, of tuchunka, rannoch, and our squad. It was exactly what i wanted from the initial release. (The variations on tuchunka and rannoch are staggering and if you mix them right can paint very unique pictures for the galaxy depending on ending, ems, and choices) The point is that it made our choices matter. IF you're just mad about logic or not liking the choice in story resolution they made, well then you're comicbook guy from the simpsons :(


Theres plenty more illogical things people dont point out in the games. Most of the asari stuff barely has an explanation if at all (Samara's glowy white eyes make no sense, black asari eyes sex never explained either) Also hey i want to just point out that the first episode of star trek the next generation (aka one of the holy grails of nerditude in realistic scifi) starts off with picard versus a space lepricaun.


A doomsday device isnt really that outlandish in the grand scheme of scifi stories.



Edit: About synthesis, its a very similar concept to the geth concensus, project overlord, and javik's mind reading/evolutionary step story elements.  yet that stuff is never explained.  We have no idea how shepard's able to jack into cyberspace or why javik can read minds just by touching, hell both of those feature the green glowing eyes thing seen in synthesis (as does overlord) but i guess people just really hate it because it came out of nowhere and wasnt prevelant in the series beforehand even though it kind of was.  :(   (The circuitboard nervous system was silly looking though)


Except if I said I wanted a "happier" ending and a true win one as a possibility, I'd very likely be told I was looking for a cheesy bunnies and rainbows disney ending.  And yet, what they created is much worse.  The slides are super silly and gloss over all that has happened.  The cutscenes are laughable since the explanation for what the choices will do is so vague in places and the impact should be more real.  You got super silly happy endings to what should be rather demented and dark choices that follow a very dark period that has just happened.  And yes, I see all the choices as pieces of some war crime that Shepard is being asked to commit with no real idea exactly what will happen to the galaxy.  To top it off, we get to watch the skin disintegrating off of Shepard or see a blast explode around his/her body with a torso gasping in rubble.  Wow, the pathos.

Nice to trivialize logic as if that does not matter at all and then to insult those who think it should have mattered.  It is not just about the logic not working at all, it's about the overwhelming amount of logic that fails at the end, and not just the logic used by the kid, but by the writers in thinking this all fit with the story that came before.  You have the kid himself sayiing two things that make no sense (he says more than two that don't, but these are for example).  He says his solution (the reapers) no longer works.  Right then and there he should stop using them because they are no longer a solution.  He also sees certain things as inevitable.  If they are inevitable then nothing can ever be done to solve them, so there is no solution.  Right then and there he should stop because he is meant to solve a problem that cannot be solved.

It did nothing to make our choices matter at all, unless the bar for you is those slide shows.  Whoopie.  Guess what-I can totally ignore ME1 and 2 and most of ME3, make completely different choices from you and in the end I can get the exact same outcome-sure, slightly different slides (as if they matter at all), but I can do the exact same thing as you.  I have somewhere around 10k EMS, a lot of it from MP alone.  In fact, if the game let me, right after Mars I could go right to the conduit and the kid and make the same choices as you.  The choices made in 3 games, the actions I took do not matter that much at all.

And this is the most crucial part that the story has been racing headlong toward.  This is the culmination of at least 100 hours of play (for basic story and some DLC, maybe) and years of waiting-this is what it all came down to.  The ending is the place where all questions should be answered, not new ones raised.  It is the place for catharsis, emotional payoff, and that feeling that the goal of 3 games was met.  ME3 changed the antagonist from the reapers to the kid (sort of), changed the problem (the reapers were going to kill everyone) to a different one (synthetics will kill all organic life), and changed the goal (stop those damn synthetics from killing all organic life). 

I don't need to know every little issue about why Javik can read minds or get memories from objects (people think that's possible today already so as fiction it works ok).  I don't need to fully comprehend how Shepard can jack into cyberspace (though the failure of the game elsewhere to explain things is no reason to accept even less explanation for the stupidity of synthesis).  I do need to know what the choices will do or are meant to achieve and will achieve in order to seal the fate of the whole galaxy.

Superficially, they show no real consequences and feature no real explanation.  In Control, Shepard dies and is uploaded into the catalyst's consortium, I guess.  That voice is more than just Shepard's.  And Control doesn't mean everyone should just instantly love it that the reapers are now fixing stuff and policing the galaxy-in fact, if one can't see the built in conflict here, then I don't know what to say.  People are forced to live with the monsters that have been killing and "eating" people they care about. 

Synthesis-somehow tech is fully integrated instantly into the DNA of all organic life-fishies, birdies, flowers, trees, bees, and people.  What tech?  Who knows?  How?  Who cares-it's cool right?  Synthetics gain full understanding of organics.  Okey dokey, so what?  And from who?  Not to mention that organics no longer even exist, so why?  I used to have a neighbor that understood cats well enough-they eat, poop, pee, and purr.  That did not mean he liked them and in fact, he would kill them if they came into his yard.  So understanding doesn't preclude conflict.  And again, the reapers are still in existence as is the kid.  No wonder this is his favorite-he basically still exists but in synthesis he fully understands organics, I guess.  Oh and it apparently can't be forced, except by Shepard.  And I just love it when EDI says they may transcend mortality.  Who the heck is she talking about?  Someone in the game says synthetics are immortal, so she can't mean herself.  And if the Krogan and Rachni become immortal, well that's just great because they like to breed A LOT (if you cured the genophage and still have Rachni around).  Yes, synthesis is a lot like the genophage (inserting something into people's bodies against their will or without their knowledge and advancing them before they're ready).  But, it's also a lot like the story of the Zha'til.

Destroy-that's just a total mess.  Who knows what will happen.  Really, go over all that the kid says and then what is shown and if you were Shepard, I think you'd ask a few more questions.

The endings are a real joke.  It isn't just one thing or another, but it's the whole thing that is just so wrong.  The lack of logic, the lack of coherence and cohesiveness and thematic errors.  And I haven't even started on the mess that Leviathan adds to this.

#125
HiddenInWar

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Liamv2 wrote...

I don't see why i should care if i am minority or majority as bioware is not changeing the ending either way. Clever noob just needs to move on