256 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

devSin wrote...

Here's the thing. Understand statistics.

Also, the entire topic is irrelevant. As a game owner, you have the right to your opinion and to express that opinion within the site rules.

So perhaps instead of engaging in arguments over who's right and who's wrong and who's in the majority and who's in the minority, simply state your own opinion, and let others worry about theirs.

The problem comes down to whether Bioware in fact listened to their fans or didn't.  Now on the twitter feed in question, had Bioware said, "Yes we listened but we didn't agree and wanted to do it this way", that would be one thing, and something well within Bioware's right.  However, Bioware out and out claimed that most people didn't want new endings/new ending content when all the available data since ME3 released and even since the EC strongly suggests otherwise.

That is a very important topic because it comes down to trust.

-Polaris

[Jaison1986]

Yeah, we move on, but then that's the sad thing. There will be nothing left. Bioware will get out of this with their image tainted, many of us won't buy their games, because they can't trust Bioware anymore. And we will know that we ultimately failed to persuade them to give us better content ending related

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

It's totally not worth talking about post ending DLC - it never really was since BW said that it wasn't going to happen and now it's over after the new DLC is out. Sorry but time to move forward and clevernoob needs to too.

I've moved on to consider that the ending, it's lack of annoucement from any of the professional game journalism organisation's, and the way anti ender's have been ignored and marginalised, is part of a bigger problem inherent, not only in the matter of ME3's ending, but also in how we as consumer's receive information about game's.

Perhap's it's better to provide the link to the article's that point's to these issues.

whatculture.com/gaming/mass-effect-3-blurring-the-journalism-in-games-journalism.php

and

www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/10/26/all-the-pretty-doritos-how-video-game-journalism-went-off-the-rails/

I used to think my relationship with game maker's was pretty simple. I like a game a dev make's and I buy it. Turn's out that's only scratching the surface.

I agree.  There's an awful lot at play here now.  I think there is a sort of collusion that is going on-not one where game devs get together and decide on something, but where one dev does something and the rest follow.  All of this leads to a very anti-consumer trend.  We are consumers and we are being taken for granted.  But we are also being taken for all the cash we can spare.  And many fans are content with this.  You often hear it said that all games are bad or all game endings are bad.  Well, if that's the attitude that fans have then why should game devs reach for something better.  We don't care and yet we expect them to care?  And if someone complains, it's very likely that fans will try and shout him/her down, even if they have the same complaint. 

The major reviewers are definitely not journalists.  My cousin is a journalist and I know what that means. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 25 février 2013 - 08:21 .

[Eterna]

The funniest part is that Clevernoob thinks this is some sort of democracy in which numbers matter.

[Dr. Megaverse]

IanPolaris wrote...


Except if you watch the video ALL the polls including the ones that correct for self-correction and other problems of the internet, and even all the non-internet polls (even polls sponsered by outlets that are highly pro-EA such as IGN) have all showed the same results.  Even after the EC, approximately 60-70% of the customers remain dissastisfied (to some degree) with the endings and how Bioware has handled it.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  If it were just a matter of scientific polling and correctly getting the sample space correct (which is very important), then you should see at least one public poll that would show what Bioware is claiming.  I have seen nary a one.

A very astute point! I am willing to accept that my desire for the ending to receive more work is a minority opinion if I can be shown even a single piece of evidentiary data supporting the claim.  I've yet to see it...

[Dr. Megaverse]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Except if you watch the video ALL the polls including the ones that correct for self-correction and other problems of the internet, and even all the non-internet polls (even polls sponsered by outlets that are highly pro-EA such as IGN) have all showed the same results.  Even after the EC, approximately 60-70% of the customers remain dissastisfied (to some degree) with the endings and how Bioware has handled it.

Wrong. None of these polls self correct at all or follow any actual proper polling procedures. It doesn't matter how often you do these polls, the majority of people specifically dissatisfied with the ending are looking for them and then linking their friends who are also dissatisfied with the ending to them. People who generally are fine with the endings are simply not motivated to represent themselves, as they frankly have no reason to. People who HATE the endings on the other hand feel like their opinions are not being heard and continually vote in them. That's how you're getting the discrepencies, as simple as that.

With this logic, it would mean reworking the endings would satisfy a majority (as the data suggests they ar) while not offending those who are ok with it. Win/win it seems...why the reluctance then?

[DextroDNA]

You don't need proof of polls and surveys to tell you the majority of the fanbase hated the endings before EC and still do after it.

Bioware (Jess Merizan) can claim they have internal data that says otherwise all they want, but it's wrong. How can they know if we like the ending or not without asking us? They put up one poll and the majority of the voters said they disliked the ending.

Sick of Bioware now. They KNOW the majority still don't like the ending and they won't change it out of pure stubbornness. I'm glad a new team is working on Mass Effect, maybe they'll actually listen to what we ask. You can say "Bioware is giving us what we want with Citadel!" - and yes, this is true. With Citadel they HAVE listened to fan-feedback and are giving you a lot of what you want but we all know that above all those things, people wanted a satisfying ending... which they refuse to give.

[ohaithere]

I made a mistake in using the word majority the other day when posting about BSN, when I really meant a large amount of the opinions I hear are negative. Not some number I've calculated. And the bottom line is this: I don't know any fans of ME who wouldn't want extra content at the end, except a few who chose synthesis.

Modifié par ohaithere, 25 février 2013 - 08:26 .

[Seival]

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

. That statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.  Just because ME3 isn't the steaming pile of crap many make it out to be does not make it by any stretch perfect

[BirdsallSa]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

. That statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.  Just because ME3 isn't the steaming pile of crap many make it out to be does not make it by any stretch perfect

This is Bioware's forum and Bioware has said several times that the ending is perfect just the way it is. What they say goes, and the renegades that are still on this forum will have to accept it one day. In fact, I have it on good authority from some of the higher ups in Bioware that Mass Effect 3 is one of the best games ever, and the ending is a large part of that.

[Jaison1986]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

. That statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.  Just because ME3 isn't the steaming pile of crap many make it out to be does not make it by any stretch perfect

No kidding. How screwing up the ending in such an colossal scale and then releasing an quick hotfix qualify as "did everything right"?

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

. That statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.  Just because ME3 isn't the steaming pile of crap many make it out to be does not make it by any stretch perfect

For some people ME3 is masterwork.

[3DandBeyond]

Eterna5 wrote...

The funniest part is that Clevernoob thinks this is some sort of democracy in which numbers matter.

Actually, in many ways it is.  Numbers should matter except that as it stands software (and all digital content creators as well as game devs) have consumers over a barrel.  ME3 was a watershed moment in this regard-most US retail sites will not accept opened software for returns-they will only do so for an exchange.  Amazon and other companies made an exception to this.  But, this does not address the loss in value (cannot quantify and cannot be fixed) even if ME3 could be returned-the loss in value to the player who liked ME1 and 2. 

The other issue here is that game devs are largely doing away with beta testing (private testing) and are opting for open or demo beta testing.  This may only work to check out game mechanics and for certain parts of a game, but not content.  In other industries content is under scrutiny.  A movie may fail if word of mouth keeps people from going to see it and Netflix doesn't buy it.  Books will fall off the radar if literary reviewers dislike them or if other fans don't love them.  But tv and movie producers, book publishers, and other media that's out there also have their own beta testers-focus groups.

Game devs are now using buyers as beta testers.  We buy a game and it may already have 5 patches to it and patches create new bugs that have to be patched. 

We should be able to vote with our wallets, and not buy what we don't like.  But the problem is who knew how ME3 was going to end before it ended?  And what information did we have about how it would end?  ME3 for many if not most fans, was a must buy even a must pre-order.  And yet that was based upon knowing how ME games were handled before.  Including the endings.

[IanPolaris]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

. That statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.  Just because ME3 isn't the steaming pile of crap many make it out to be does not make it by any stretch perfect

For some people ME3 is masterwork.

Some people will rate anything as a masterwork.

-Polaris

[ManiacG]

Well there are different ways of showing a company that you mean buisness, i for one wont buy ME4, and i hope i am not alone in that, EA only cares about money, deny them that just as they deny us now.

[Steelcan]

Not just the endings, but ME3 as a whole has plenty wrong with it.

[Applepie_Svk]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

. That statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.  Just because ME3 isn't the steaming pile of crap many make it out to be does not make it by any stretch perfect

This is Bioware's forum and Bioware has said several times that the ending is perfect just the way it is. What they say goes, and the renegades that are still on this forum will have to accept it one day. In fact, I have it on good authority from some of the higher ups in Bioware that Mass Effect 3 is one of the best games ever, and the ending is a large part of that.

Seival has crushed logic once more...

So that´s how works democracy now ? Good to know...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 25 février 2013 - 08:34 .

[xelander]

@OP
The poll options in each poll can be basically boiled down to "The ending was good/OK/bad". For me, the set of the gamers who played ME3 were sampled along various enough and different enough parameters (pre/post EC, community/media portals conducting the polls, size of the polls) to believe that the real distribution approaches the one shown - 2/3 in the "ending was bad" and 1/3 in the other 2 categories.

The argument that you CAN make is that the experiments are skewed, since emotionally affected people tend to be more proactive than content people, thus invalidating the whole premise of an unbiased poll. But then again, the reaction of the emotionally affected gamers was a strong negative one (I can't remember anyone on the net wanting to share waves of elation after playing the game to the end), so... make of it what you will.

[3DandBeyond]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

. That statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.  Just because ME3 isn't the steaming pile of crap many make it out to be does not make it by any stretch perfect

No kidding. How screwing up the ending in such an colossal scale and then releasing an quick hotfix qualify as "did everything right"?

And the idea that it doesn't matter if the majority of people dislike the endings or like them is ludicrous.  Certainly, we will never fully know that, but it should matter to Bioware.  It should matter to EA.  And, if you like their games and want them to be successful, it should matter to you.  I know this because there have been other games where people started attacking fans or advocated certain horrible MP behavior in the game that had the effect of driving other players away. 

This type of stuff can have the exact opposite effect of what you want to have happen if you like a game.  If I like a  game, I want as many other people as possible to like it, too, or the company may never make a sequel or may even stop making games or just stop making games I like.

[Redbelle]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

. That statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.  Just because ME3 isn't the steaming pile of crap many make it out to be does not make it by any stretch perfect

This is Bioware's forum and Bioware has said several times that the ending is perfect just the way it is. What they say goes, and the renegades that are still on this forum will have to accept it one day. In fact, I have it on good authority from some of the higher ups in Bioware that Mass Effect 3 is one of the best games ever, and the ending is a large part of that.

So Seiv's saying, as a fan, that BW did everything right...........

And Bird is saying that in BW's eye's the opinion of the fan's do not matter?

Eh?

[o Ventus]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

. That statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.  Just because ME3 isn't the steaming pile of crap many make it out to be does not make it by any stretch perfect

This is Bioware's forum and Bioware has said several times that the ending is perfect just the way it is. What they say goes, and the renegades that are still on this forum will have to accept it one day. In fact, I have it on good authority from some of the higher ups in Bioware that Mass Effect 3 is one of the best games ever, and the ending is a large part of that.

So an employee of Bioware objectively claims that ME3 (a game made by Bioware) is one of the best games ever"?

That isn't biased at all.

[BirdsallSa]

Steelcan wrote...

Not just the endings, but ME3 as a whole has plenty wrong with it.

This slander is simply not true. Where you see a means to criticize I see art in its purest form. I see a company that is so care free of the customer's petty desires that they're willing to do whatever it takes to create a good game. Sometimes, dealing with the haters and doubters on the BSN can bring a person down, but thinking about the courage and raw creative power that Bioware has exercised over the past year makes me proud to be an enforcer of justice in this community.

[Steelcan]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

In fact, it doesn't really matter who is majority here.

What matters is that BioWare did everything right.

. That statement is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.  Just because ME3 isn't the steaming pile of crap many make it out to be does not make it by any stretch perfect

This is Bioware's forum and Bioware has said several times that the ending is perfect just the way it is. What they say goes, and the renegades that are still on this forum will have to accept it one day. In fact, I have it on good authority from some of the higher ups in Bioware that Mass Effect 3 is one of the best games ever, and the ending is a large part of that.

. Oh yes lets ask the creators about how they rate their work.  I. Are the people who made Duke Nuke'm thought it was great as well.

[Jaulen]

Eterna5 wrote...

The funniest part is that Clevernoob thinks this is some sort of democracy in which numbers matter.

It's funny that you think in Business numbers DON'T matter.