256 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Not just the endings, but ME3 as a whole has plenty wrong with it.

This slander is simply not true. Where you see a means to criticize I see art in its purest form. I see a company that is so care free of the customer's petty desires that they're willing to do whatever it takes to create a good game. Sometimes, dealing with the haters and doubters on the BSN can bring a person down, but thinking about the courage and raw creative power that Bioware has exercised over the past year makes me proud to be an enforcer of justice in this community.

. Well suffice it to say I find your opinion pure malarkey.

[Cainhurst Crow]

This isn'tt locked yet?

[Lieber]

I would like to read this thread, but the sheer amount of idiots spamming the link to that video pisses me off.

[BirdsallSa]

In any case, whether or not the ending was good or not is academic and it's a question that we are simply not qualified to answer. Who is? How about someone whose life is dedicated to making games? People like Hudson and Mac Walters are the ones who are judging their work. I heard from sources that those two made the ending entirely by themselves. They created between the two of them a masterpiece that all the haters on this forum put together couldn't have even fathomed. That is pure genius and they are the ones who I trust to tell me what's what when it comes to video games.

Bioware has the statistical evidence to prove that the ending haters are in the minority and Jessica Merizan has stated this herself and this is a documented fact. There need be no more discussion on the matter and I think I speak for everyone when I say this thread is toast.

[Unschuld]

Bioware's logic regarding this:


"All of the polls on the internet heavily slanted toward ending hate must be from a vocal minority, because the majority who didn't answer the polls must have loved it 100%."

Modifié par Unschuld, 25 février 2013 - 08:45 .

[Jaulen]

Lieber wrote...

I would like to read this thread, but the sheer amount of idiots spamming the link to that video pisses me off.

Yeah.....I think I've seen it posted....2 maybe 3 times...in 7 pages......My def of 'spam' must be off.

[moater boat]

There is bias everywhere.That's why we have polls, to determine bias. When people elections are held, some people just stay at home instead of going to the polls, but no one tries to make arguments based on what they think those people want. The prevailing logic is that if those people can't be bothered to make their voices heard, their opinion doesn't count for much. It makes sense to use that same logic here. If people who like the ending don't like it enough to actually stand up for Bioware, they must not like it that much.

Every single poll says the same thing. A majority of people are unhappy. Obviously we can't know with absolute certainty without asking a majority , but when you have so many polls that all say the same thing, many of them with respectable sample sizes, it makes things pretty clear to anyone that doesn't have their head in the sand.

Bioware screwed up. They need to own their mistake or it will be the end of them.

[Steelcan]

BirdsallSa wrote...

In any case, whether or not the ending was good or not is academic and it's a question that we are simply not qualified to answer. Who is? How about someone whose life is dedicated to making games? People like Hudson and Mac Walters are the ones who are judging their work. I heard from sources that those two made the ending entirely by themselves. They created between the two of them a masterpiece that all the haters on this forum put together couldn't have even fathomed. That is pure genius and they are the ones who I trust to tell me what's what when it comes to video games.

Bioware has the statistical evidence to prove that the ending haters are in the minority and Jessica Merizan has stated this herself and this is a documented fact. There need be no more discussion on the matter and I think I speak for everyone when I say this thread is toast.

. Let me make a statement with just as much evidence as Merizan provided.

All sharks are in fact aliens, and if you believe otherwise you are in a vocal minority.

[Lieber]

Jaulen wrote...

Lieber wrote...

I would like to read this thread, but the sheer amount of idiots spamming the link to that video pisses me off.

Yeah.....I think I've seen it posted....2 maybe 3 times...in 7 pages......My def of 'spam' must be off.

The general subject annoys me. The link is spammed on other threads too.

[Oni Changas]

Did you Helen Kellers notice the part where he stated that CN CROSS REFERENCED the polls? Meaning its not just BSN, and furthermore what's it matter if you like or dislike the RGB if you're among those who supposedly don't venture into social media to VOICE those opinions? Only those who speak up are and should be taken into account. To sum it up; CN has various sources with their polls AND they are accessible unlike BioWare and their phantom results.

[nos_astra]

BirdsallSa wrote...
I heard from sources that those two made the ending entirely by themselves. They created between the two of them a masterpiece that all the haters on this forum put together couldn't have even fathomed. That is pure genius and they are the ones who I trust to tell me what's what when it comes to video games.

I prefer to think for myself.

[3DandBeyond]

Let's see where to start. The kid, based on the vast majority of comments, even those who like the endings well enough, was not done well or just shouldn't be there. Some suggested even Harbinger would be better, even though they like the endings.

A pro-Synthesis supporter of note who has a long theory on it, has also often created threads about not liking an awful lot of stuff in the game and at the end. This person has even stated that it was not done well-the ending lacked a lot of explanation and so on. This person is a staunch supporter of the no new endings or no new content patrol and yet he does not rave about how well the game was done as a whole but especially at the end.

There also was a pro-ending compendium thread in which the vast majority of the links to threads on the BSN were not from people liking the endings. One of the links was to a thread of mine. And many of the links had a disclaimer that read "not pro-ending, but good discussion".

In most of the seemingly pro-ending threads that this compendium linked to there were fewer than double digit pages and most of the comments in them were about how bad the endings were. This in a pro-ending compendium. I certainly have never felt the love when it comes to the endings and I've seen perhaps 2 real attempts at justifying them that made sense to me-one was from someone who said he just didn't care that much about the story so he liked the endings and the other one was someone who just really tried hard to explain what she liked, but seemed not to understand the story.

Other people here that like the endings, almost always add a disclaimer that says something like, "but it could have been done better".

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 25 février 2013 - 08:55 .

[3DandBeyond]

john_sheparrd wrote...


I agree mostly with you seival (I don't really like control or synthesis) but nevertheless I also love the ending
and the mass effect trilogy is truly a masterpiece
**** the haters

Priceless.  Hatred is something apparently ok to do towards people, but not to apply toward a game ending.  Warped logic if ever such a thing existed.

So glad you agree with someone who thinks Shepard becomes part of the citadel or a reaper and still has a love affair with Liara, or that thinks heroes don't exist, that dictatorships are good, and that putting people in concentration camps in a game, would be a great idea.  Yes, as a company these are the fans I'd want.

A masterpiece speaks for itself and many do exist.  ME3 is certainly not one because it requires people explain just how in the hell these endings fit with all that came before.  And mostly they have to make up stuff to do that.

[Dr. Megaverse]

I often find myself wondering why we are even having this argument.

Hate ME3 endings? Let's make a $15 DLC for you which changes it. Yaay money!

Like the ME3 endings? Don't download the ending DLC and continue to enjoy it the way you like it. Yaaay positive customer retention!

I work for a retail establishment and customer satisfaction is key. It takes more money to make a new customer than to keep an old one. Why not keep the old ones, and produce profit from it? Where along the lines did the companies in question lose sight of this simple, logical idea? I suppose having ethical values as a corporation can e good, however look at how their "ethical stand" has cost them, because losing even a single customer costs them!

This is where the issue of "how much is it costing them" (those satisfied vs unsatisfied) becomes an issue and we are back to the question of data sets. I suppose you could argue they keep their behavior up because some secret internal data supports the business model, but why not release said data in a way which doesn't damage their collection methods/analyzing methods and allay the fears of investors and social media reviewers (which has a good potential to cause customer loss with a negative reaction)? Seems illogical to me, but you know, I just post here...

Modifié par Dr. Megaverse, 25 février 2013 - 08:57 .

[CronoDragoon]

IanPolaris wrote...
No it isn't an entirely different claim.  If you don't want a new ending then you like (or at least are satisfied) with the ending you have.  There is not a shred of evidence that this is true for the majority of the customers.

-Polaris

That isn't true at all. I've played many games the endings for which I did not like, and I asked for new endings for zero of them. It's a different claim they are making, and one that can easily be true: the number of fans still asking for new endings is the minority. People asking for new endings can spin it all they like, but since we know the number of people that bought the game and the amount of people actively asking for new endings, we can know that statistic.

That doesn't even imply that the rest - the ones not asking for new endings - like the ending.  But that isn't what the BW employees claimed.

In point of fact, I don't like the endings and I don't want a new one. Anyone in my category doesn't get included in yours.

Edit: Satisfied, yes. But I'm willing to bet that if you include anyone who doesn't actively campaign for new endings under "satisfied" then you'll get a much larger number than you think.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 février 2013 - 09:01 .

[3DandBeyond]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

I often find myself wondering why we are even having this argument.

Hate ME3 endings? Let's make a $15 DLC for you which changes it. Yaay money!

Like the ME3 endings? Don't download the ending DLC and continue to enjoy it the way you like it. Yaaay positive customer retention!

I work for a retail establishment and customer satisfaction is key. It takes more money to make a new customer than to keep an old one. Why not keep the old ones, and produce profit from it? Where along the lines did the companies in question lose sight of this simple, logical idea? I suppose having ethical values as a corporation can e good, however look at how their "ethical stand" has cost them, because losing even a single customer costs them!

This is where the issue of "how much is it costing them" (those satisfied vs unsatisfied) becomes an issue and we are back to the question of data sets. I suppose you could argue they keep their behavior up because some secret internal data supports the business model, but why not release said data in a way which doesn't damage their collection methods/analyzing methods and allay the fears of investors andsocial media reviewers (which has a good potential to cause customer loss with a negative reaction), WHILE making more money?

Exactly.  However, whenever that was suggested there were some who felt that if BW had released optional content that they would not even ever have to see or buy, it would ruin their game because they'd know it existed.  And I'm not kidding.  The other claim was that if BW released optional ending DLC that it would be wrong because too many people would want it and it would become the canon ending.  I'm not kidding.  So, you have some complaining that even if they never played it, it would ruin their game and others complaining that too many people would buy it and it would ruin their game.  The world is a crazy place.

[Argentoid]

Hexley UK wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Please don't post videos by that dude on here. Please. Don't feed his ego.

But he's right...deal with it.

Wut? No.

He just wants his beloved "IT ending" to be considered canon through DLC. Therefore, he's angry and dissappointed.

IT is crap. HE needs to deal with it.

I agree that we need more ending content, such as an extension of Shepard's fate. Ain't gonna happen anyway. But please, no IT.

[XXIceColdXX]

Even after EC, there are enough people out there upset that a change in the ending or post ending DLC was warranted. You'd have to have your head under a rock to not see it.

[IanPolaris]

CronoDragoon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
No it isn't an entirely different claim.  If you don't want a new ending then you like (or at least are satisfied) with the ending you have.  There is not a shred of evidence that this is true for the majority of the customers.

-Polaris

That isn't true at all. I've played many games the endings for which I did not like, and I asked for new endings for zero of them. It's a different claim they are making, and one that can easily be true: the number of fans still asking for new endings is the minority. People asking for new endings can spin it all they like, but since we know the number of people that bought the game and the amount of people actively asking for new endings, we can know that statistic.

That doesn't even imply that the rest - the ones not asking for new endings - like the ending.  But that isn't what the BW employees claimed.

In point of fact, I don't like the endings and I don't want a new one. Anyone in my category doesn't get included in yours.

Edit: Satisfied, yes. But I'm willing to bet that if you include anyone who doesn't actively campaign for new endings under "satisfied" then you'll get a much larger number than you think.

Actually your catagory is included in the "like" category.  If you look at the various polls an surveys, there are three basic categories:

Like the Endings
Can live with the endings
DIslike the endings.

The last outnumbers the first two combined by about 2:1 for almost all the publically available data.  That's just the fact of the matter.

-Polaris

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

they gave us new endings. We get to see the fate of the universe, of tuchunka, rannoch, and our squad. It was exactly what i wanted from the initial release. (The variations on tuchunka and rannoch are staggering and if you mix them right can paint very unique pictures for the galaxy depending on ending, ems, and choices) The point is that it made our choices matter. IF you're just mad about logic or not liking the choice in story resolution they made, well then you're comicbook guy from the simpsons


Theres plenty more illogical things people dont point out in the games. Most of the asari stuff barely has an explanation if at all (Samara's glowy white eyes make no sense, black asari eyes sex never explained either) Also hey i want to just point out that the first episode of star trek the next generation (aka one of the holy grails of nerditude in realistic scifi) starts off with picard versus a space lepricaun.


A doomsday device isnt really that outlandish in the grand scheme of scifi stories.



Edit: About synthesis, its a very similar concept to the geth concensus, project overlord, and javik's mind reading/evolutionary step story elements.  yet that stuff is never explained.  We have no idea how shepard's able to jack into cyberspace or why javik can read minds just by touching, hell both of those feature the green glowing eyes thing seen in synthesis (as does overlord) but i guess people just really hate it because it came out of nowhere and wasnt prevelant in the series beforehand even though it kind of was.     (The circuitboard nervous system was silly looking though)

Except if I said I wanted a "happier" ending and a true win one as a possibility, I'd very likely be told I was looking for a cheesy bunnies and rainbows disney ending.  And yet, what they created is much worse.  The slides are super silly and gloss over all that has happened.  The cutscenes are laughable since the explanation for what the choices will do is so vague in places and the impact should be more real.  You got super silly happy endings to what should be rather demented and dark choices that follow a very dark period that has just happened.  And yes, I see all the choices as pieces of some war crime that Shepard is being asked to commit with no real idea exactly what will happen to the galaxy.  To top it off, we get to watch the skin disintegrating off of Shepard or see a blast explode around his/her body with a torso gasping in rubble.  Wow, the pathos.

Nice to trivialize logic as if that does not matter at all and then to insult those who think it should have mattered.  It is not just about the logic not working at all, it's about the overwhelming amount of logic that fails at the end, and not just the logic used by the kid, but by the writers in thinking this all fit with the story that came before.  You have the kid himself sayiing two things that make no sense (he says more than two that don't, but these are for example).  He says his solution (the reapers) no longer works.  Right then and there he should stop using them because they are no longer a solution.  He also sees certain things as inevitable.  If they are inevitable then nothing can ever be done to solve them, so there is no solution.  Right then and there he should stop because he is meant to solve a problem that cannot be solved.

It did nothing to make our choices matter at all, unless the bar for you is those slide shows.  Whoopie.  Guess what-I can totally ignore ME1 and 2 and most of ME3, make completely different choices from you and in the end I can get the exact same outcome-sure, slightly different slides (as if they matter at all), but I can do the exact same thing as you.  I have somewhere around 10k EMS, a lot of it from MP alone.  In fact, if the game let me, right after Mars I could go right to the conduit and the kid and make the same choices as you.  The choices made in 3 games, the actions I took do not matter that much at all.

And this is the most crucial part that the story has been racing headlong toward.  This is the culmination of at least 100 hours of play (for basic story and some DLC, maybe) and years of waiting-this is what it all came down to.  The ending is the place where all questions should be answered, not new ones raised.  It is the place for catharsis, emotional payoff, and that feeling that the goal of 3 games was met.  ME3 changed the antagonist from the reapers to the kid (sort of), changed the problem (the reapers were going to kill everyone) to a different one (synthetics will kill all organic life), and changed the goal (stop those damn synthetics from killing all organic life). 

I don't need to know every little issue about why Javik can read minds or get memories from objects (people think that's possible today already so as fiction it works ok).  I don't need to fully comprehend how Shepard can jack into cyberspace (though the failure of the game elsewhere to explain things is no reason to accept even less explanation for the stupidity of synthesis).  I do need to know what the choices will do or are meant to achieve and will achieve in order to seal the fate of the whole galaxy.

Superficially, they show no real consequences and feature no real explanation.  In Control, Shepard dies and is uploaded into the catalyst's consortium, I guess.  That voice is more than just Shepard's.  And Control doesn't mean everyone should just instantly love it that the reapers are now fixing stuff and policing the galaxy-in fact, if one can't see the built in conflict here, then I don't know what to say.  People are forced to live with the monsters that have been killing and "eating" people they care about. 

Synthesis-somehow tech is fully integrated instantly into the DNA of all organic life-fishies, birdies, flowers, trees, bees, and people.  What tech?  Who knows?  How?  Who cares-it's cool right?  Synthetics gain full understanding of organics.  Okey dokey, so what?  And from who?  Not to mention that organics no longer even exist, so why?  I used to have a neighbor that understood cats well enough-they eat, poop, pee, and purr.  That did not mean he liked them and in fact, he would kill them if they came into his yard.  So understanding doesn't preclude conflict.  And again, the reapers are still in existence as is the kid.  No wonder this is his favorite-he basically still exists but in synthesis he fully understands organics, I guess.  Oh and it apparently can't be forced, except by Shepard.  And I just love it when EDI says they may transcend mortality.  Who the heck is she talking about?  Someone in the game says synthetics are immortal, so she can't mean herself.  And if the Krogan and Rachni become immortal, well that's just great because they like to breed A LOT (if you cured the genophage and still have Rachni around).  Yes, synthesis is a lot like the genophage (inserting something into people's bodies against their will or without their knowledge and advancing them before they're ready).  But, it's also a lot like the story of the Zha'til.

Destroy-that's just a total mess.  Who knows what will happen.  Really, go over all that the kid says and then what is shown and if you were Shepard, I think you'd ask a few more questions.

The endings are a real joke.  It isn't just one thing or another, but it's the whole thing that is just so wrong.  The lack of logic, the lack of coherence and cohesiveness and thematic errors.  And I haven't even started on the mess that Leviathan adds to this.

High EMS Destroy is a pretty happy ending.  they dont even explicitly tell you "geth gonna die"  anymore.

The Wrex decision, Maelin's data decision, and how the suicide mission went matter to how those slides turn out, as well as several me3 decisions.  (The raccni from me1 has a slide too if you saved her)  Technically kaiden/ashley decision is also reflected.

I think it would have been dumb if saving the council or sparing morinth determined whether you destroyed the reapers or not but thats just me.  (If you dont import GAW assets or do planet scanning the WA are balanced well arround enabling a happy ending or not based on your chioces and how many missions you play, including the dlc's.)

I was super confused at the ending but I feel leviathan answered my questions, though it should have been in the game to start with.  the information you recieve is so vital to how that story wraps up that its criminal they left it out. 

"I do need to know what the choices will do or are meant to achieve and
will achieve in order to seal the fate of the whole galaxy."   Extended cut tells you these things through investigate options and showing how things turn out.  it was super confusing at first but theres more information there now.  (i was pissed at the original endings but satisfied with extended cut)

"if one can't see the built in conflict here, then I don't know what to
say.  People are forced to live with the monsters that have been killing
and "eating" people they care about. "  The control ending is  supposed to evoke those feelings.  depending on your choices on rannoch, tuchunka, and your paragon/renegade score it implies that shepard uses the reapers to keep people in line or takes a passive approach.  yeah its kind of ****ed up but for the shepard who shot shiala in the head, shot mordin in the back, and shot legion in the face, it's fitting for THAT shepard to want to keep things in order as he sees fit.  (Though paragon points paint it a little more optimistic)  Control is the morality score ending.

Synthesis is interesting.  its controversial but it also builds on existing themes.  its about evolution, makes us like the protheans and takes it further than that.  The green eyes is intentional because they are similar concepts.  javik spends the whole game talking about how he cant understand these primitives, edi's entire storyline is about understanding organics and fear of them not understanding her, this is also mirrored in the geth arc, though i feel the quarian/geth peace was a copout (and is cheesy as hell)  Synthesis is a little silly looking but its built on underlying themes from the series.  Its for people who believe the reaper problem was FOR something important, for people who see that problem as real and significant.  its not for everyone.


The starkid NOT turning off the reapers wasnt a logic hole.  he said  "My solution wont work anymore"  but that means he wants a new one.  if he just shuts down his current one that causes a further problem in his plan.  He recognizes the flaw in his plan in that the knowledge to solve this problem exists and that organics CAN rise up against the reapers, but that doesnt mean he's going to give up.  it means he's accepting of a new solution to replace his current one, not that he's going to cut cold turkey.


I do think it would have shut alot of people up if they'd made a super high destroy ending have a slide with the geth and edi alive.  thats litterally the only thing that has people who want a happy ending NOT accept destroy fully.

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
No it isn't an entirely different claim.  If you don't want a new ending then you like (or at least are satisfied) with the ending you have.  There is not a shred of evidence that this is true for the majority of the customers.

-Polaris

That isn't true at all. I've played many games the endings for which I did not like, and I asked for new endings for zero of them. It's a different claim they are making, and one that can easily be true: the number of fans still asking for new endings is the minority. People asking for new endings can spin it all they like, but since we know the number of people that bought the game and the amount of people actively asking for new endings, we can know that statistic.

That doesn't even imply that the rest - the ones not asking for new endings - like the ending.  But that isn't what the BW employees claimed.

In point of fact, I don't like the endings and I don't want a new one. Anyone in my category doesn't get included in yours.

Here's the thing.  You've accepted crap from other games and decided not to complain.  Here we have a situation where BW clearly stated things that never came true and then even included things they said they would not and their answer to a real consumer response and backlash was to add onto the mistake they already made.

Is it possible BW did some secret polling?  Well, hardly.  Given the fact that someone who didn't like the endings would have said they participated in a secret poll.

Point of fact, that yes some games have had bad endings-I don't generally play them more than once.  But then again, most games never had this scenario set up before where the ending was quite so crucial since the story was as well.  Nor have many had this whole "choices matter" milieu so that the endings seemingly would hinge upon everything you had done in the games-something that ME3 totally squashed at the end.

The issue becomes one of what is valid to complain about and what is a promise.  Content certainly cannot be considered off limits, nor can hype.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

 What? Mass Effect 3 is 100% perfect? 

Really?

As in not one, single teeny-tiny problem, issue or flaw  in the game at all? The game is the embodiment of perfection itself?

Here are a few of the top of my head:

-Face import bug
-Quest system is worse than previous games
-Tali's face
-Lack of variety in ending scenes (NOT endings themselves)
-Perfect ending requires multiplayer
-Collector Base = 10 War Assets
-EDI's cameltoe

I know I complain about Mass Effect 3, but that's mostly just my opinion, these however, are unjustifiable, [b]period.

-Face import bug sucks, i heard its fixed on consoles and saw evidence of this on Videogames Awesome's playthrough.
-Quests are worse yeah
-Hoping we get tali's face in Citadel DLC  ;-<
-Not anymore it doesnt.  extended cut lowered the requirement so you can get it with good choices through the trilogy+dlc missions and/or galaxy scanning.
-It also changes some dialogue, but yeah that kinda sucked.  It does effect the low ems ending.
-Why is this a complaint this is a FEATURE 

[CronoDragoon]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Here's the thing.  You've accepted crap from other games and decided not to complain.  Here we have a situation where BW clearly stated things that never came true and then even included things they said they would not and their answer to a real consumer response and backlash was to add onto the mistake they already made.

Is it possible BW did some secret polling?  Well, hardly.  Given the fact that someone who didn't like the endings would have said they participated in a secret poll.

Why is secret polling needed again?

Point of fact, that yes some games have had bad endings-I don't generally play them more than once.  But then again, most games never had this scenario set up before where the ending was quite so crucial since the story was as well.  Nor have many had this whole "choices matter" milieu so that the endings seemingly would hinge upon everything you had done in the games-something that ME3 totally squashed at the end.

The issue becomes one of what is valid to complain about and what is a promise.  Content certainly cannot be considered off limits, nor can hype.

I really don't care for the purpose of this topic why you hate the endings. That's irrelevant.