16 réponses à ce sujet

[Tranter88]

Whilst I know Bioware would never outright say, whats there intended outcome of any of their games. Released materials tend to follow one set of outcomes.

WARNING BEFORE I START, HEAVY SPOLIERING TO FOLLOW
I'm starting a play through of DA:O and DA2 based on the information presented in the novels, graphic novels and other sources produced for the games. I've got my own preferred play through's and decisions I've made that I'm happy with, but was trying to get a game together for DA3 based on what seems to be the Bioware ideal.
I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on my assumptions and if you have any relevant to add I'd be pleased to hear it.
Dragon Age: Origins
 
While Bioware have done a good job of not pointing to a particular protagonist, we can make assumptions based on your companions that would have to factored into a Canon playthrough.
 
Alistair - Ends up as king, looking for his old man with Isabela and Varric. This rules out him killing the Archdemon without a dark ritual. Also he seems to of just up sticks and left Ferelden to do this. Would this make you think there is a suitable steward in charge i.e. He married Anora? He doesn't seem to say anything of a relationship with the warden so this is possible.
 
Wynne - Dies at the end of Asunder, but this is 10 years post DA:O end means she would survive. Therefore this would mean siding with the mages in the circle tower and not having to kill her (also would make a plausible reason for Cullen leaving for Kirkwall).
 
Leliana - Was resurrected for some in DA2 and features in Asunder. Therefore we must assume she is meant to live and would mean that the ashes of Andraste quest would have to be completed the right way and killing the cultists. As she also seems to leave for Orlais fairly soon after the end of DA:O would this also mean shes not the preferred love interest for the warden.
 
Shale - Is with Wynne in Orlais during Asunder as they were travelling to Tevinter together. Again this means she lives and would lead to a golem friendly resolution to Paragon of her kind.
 
Oghren - As we know from Awakening he joins the Wardens and most of his future is dependant on your actions during the game, but there is no real reason to think he'd be dead or leave the Wardens.
 
Sten - Returns to Par Vollen with his answer for the Arishok. Later becomes the new Arishok and teams up with Alistair, Isabela and Varric (We'll see how that pans out in the last part of the graphic novels, starting very soon I believe).
 
This leaves Morrigan and Zevran. My play throughs to date of DA2 are based on a game where Zevran is alive and thus I get the Murder of Crows quest. Does this appear anyway like Leliana's resurrection? Other then that the fate of Zevran isn't really mentioned. Morrigan can't be killed and she leaves at the end of DA:O either way. Nothing's really hinted at about the fate of her God baby, or the father, but the conversation with Flemeth in DA2 on Sundermount and a few lines from the graphic novels seems to hint at her being alive and with the baby. As Zevran is off picking up Izzy in Kirkwall and Morrigan has a God Baby, would I be safe in assuming that a Male Warden romancing Morrigan is the way to go, performing the Dark Ritual finish?
 
 
Dragon Age 2
 
Other then Isabela and Varric the fate of the Hawkes and friends are somewhat more ambiguous. The only thing you can say for definite is that Isabela would of returned the relic to the Arishok, but as she isn't with Hawke in the graphic novels, would not be in a relationship with them.
 
My feelings on DA2 are that the story seems to assume you'd sided with the mages. I don't see why Cassandra would be chasing down a defender of the Chantry and threatening Varric to find them. Where as she would be very keen to find someone who potentially started the War between Mages and Templars. There's no evidence for this however and you can easily make the case against Mages, especially with Quentin killing your Mother and every mage who gets called a name getting all "Raar Abomination time". However to me the game seems to point towards a pro mage ending.
 
There is mention of Anders actions in Asunder, but no real say on his fate. The mage war would seem to of started in any case.
 
 
Sorry for the wall of text and congrats if you've made it this far. I look forward to anyone's input and agreement, disagreement with the above.

[IanPolaris]

Actually if you play DA2 in the original version, it is pretty clear what the intended "canonical" Hawke was intended to be. Also the Kirkwall incident is obliquely mentioned in Asunder, and there the circle was annulled by the Champion of Kirkwall.

The DA2 clearly assumes that you side with the templars. Not only do you get a much more logically consistant and immersive play if you do, but aspects of the game-play (such as not recognizing a mage-Hawke casting magic less than 100 yards from Meredith's own office!) tells us that Hawke was never supposed to be a mage in the main story.

Note by logical consistancy, I mean things like Grace hating you in Act 3 to the point of kidnapping your sibling/lover, and turning on Thrask. I mean things like Thrask thinking he had to have leverage against you, and (in the original version) Thrask's conspiritors always claiming that you were working for Meredith. Also you get a very indepth heart to heard background exposition from Meredith if you side with her for the second mission in Act 3. You get nothing like this for Orsino.

Finally look at the Deep Roads expedition. I think it's pretty clear that with Varic being required to go, and Anders being the most logical person to go as well (since he IS a Warden with recent and relevant Deep Roads experience), that the mission "slot" would be a warrior, and that would be best filled by a Warrior Hawke.

Given all of these leading indicators (I won't call them facts...just strong opinion on what is meant to be 'canon' based on the facts), I would say this:

The "Canonical" DA2 is a Warrior Hawke (Heroic/Green Perisonality) that sides with the Templars and may (based on how Carver developes) have some covert Templar training himself.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Also the Kirkwall incident is obliquely mentioned in Asunder, and there the circle was annulled by the Champion of Kirkwall.

That is never made clear in Asunder. Mr. Gaider mentioned that he left it purposely vague because he didn't want to extablish a canon for Hawke's final and most important choice.

[Tranter88]

Interesting thoughts, but wouldn't Carver be Ogre meat if Hawke's a warrior?

I've generally lent towards the mages and perhaps haven't experienced some of the things you've mentioned, but the whole Thrask in Act 3 irked me as a mage sympathiser, it just seemed silly to kill all the people who had banded together to enact the 'ideal'.

I like your reasoning however.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Also the Kirkwall incident is obliquely mentioned in Asunder, and there the circle was annulled by the Champion of Kirkwall. 

That is never made clear in Asunder. Mr. Gaider mentioned that he left it purposely vague because he didn't want to extablish a canon for Hawke's final and most important choice. 

I recall Gaider saying the same thing about Asunder. However, Ian does have a point in how the narrative fails to properly address a pro-mage Hawke (since you basically follow almost the same narrative as a pro-templar Hawke, to the point where you fight against free mages and an anti-Meredith faction of mages and templars working together), as well as an apostate Hawke being almost completely ignored by the story. You're basically forced into attacking mages and working for Meredith even if you tell her no.

However, the storyline is so asinine that it seldom makes any sense, regardless of what side Hawke finally chooses at the conclusion of the story - why would Decimus assume that an apostate Hawke and Merrill are templars? Why would anyone work for Tahrone when she looks like a crack addict and sounds like a raving lunatic? Why would Grace seek revenge against the man who killed templars to aid her escape? Why is virtually every mage antagonist insane and stupid? Why are the templar antagonists so one-dimensional? Why would Cullen suddenly defect from Meredith if she threatens a pro-mage Hawke who has been killing every templar in his path? Much less how Orsino miraculously knew a ritual that can clearly only be done once, or why Meredith bothered to purchase a macguffin for no discernable reason. There's so much that simply doesn't make any sense aside from "we're just following the script".

That said, there really isn't supposed to be a 'canon' for Dragon Age, although the developers inability to properly address the different outcomes for Origins does make it feel as though our actions don't really have the kind of impact that they should. The fact that a mage becoming a national hero, the ramifications of the Hero of Ferelden asking for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence, and a mage becoming Warden-Commander and the new Arl of Amaranthine, are almost completely ignored. I'm still more interested in apostate Hawke as a potential rebel mage leader in the pro-mage ending.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I recall Gaider saying the same thing about Asunder. However, Ian does have a point in how the narrative fails to properly address a pro-mage Hawke (since you basically follow almost the same narrative as a pro-templar Hawke, to the point where you fight against free mages and an anti-Meredith faction of mages and templars working together), as well as an apostate Hawke being almost completely ignored by the story. You're basically forced into attacking mages and working for Meredith even if you tell her no.

Hey I wanted to lead templars to Darktown and retrieve the Deep Roads maps from Anders' belongings after he has been captured or killed but I can't do that.
I also wanted to lead Merril to the Gallows and tell her it was the Alienage but alas.

Point being, sometimes we must all make sacrifices so the game can have a plot.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 février 2013 - 09:26 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I recall Gaider saying the same thing about Asunder. However, Ian does have a point in how the narrative fails to properly address a pro-mage Hawke (since you basically follow almost the same narrative as a pro-templar Hawke, to the point where you fight against free mages and an anti-Meredith faction of mages and templars working together), as well as an apostate Hawke being almost completely ignored by the story. You're basically forced into attacking mages and working for Meredith even if you tell her no. 

Hey I wanted to lead templars to Darktown and retrieve the Deep Roads maps from Anders' belongings after he has been captured or killed but I can't do that.
I also wanted to lead Merril to the Gallows and tell her it was the Alienage but alas.

Point being, sometimes we must all make sacrifices so the game can have a plot. 

It would help if the plot made sense.

[Tranter88]

I agree there isn't supposed to be a canon, however from the novels and graphic novels, there is atleast a narrative they've decided to favour for the expanded material. In the case of Mass Effect this material has somewhat influnced the game going forward. The Anderson/Sanders actions of the books found there way into the game, despite there being no reason for this depending on the player choice.

I do like how this could potentially work out however. If my assumptions are right about the Warden in DA:O and a mage leaning, Morrigan romancing Warden comes from Origins. Then taking onboard Ian's comments on DA2 for a Templar leaning Hawke. Could lead to a mother of all fights taking place in DA3 Warden V Hawke...fight

[IanPolaris]

Tranter88 wrote...

Interesting thoughts, but wouldn't Carver be Ogre meat if Hawke's a warrior?

I've generally lent towards the mages and perhaps haven't experienced some of the things you've mentioned, but the whole Thrask in Act 3 irked me as a mage sympathiser, it just seemed silly to kill all the people who had banded together to enact the 'ideal'.

I like your reasoning however.

When I mentioned Carver, I meant only that Carver does become a Templar either explicitly or has training as a Templar as a Grey Warden.  It seems to me that this is an indicator that a Warrior Hawke would likely be assumed to have picked up covert Templar training.

Again this post and my prior ones should be regarded as (hopefully insightful) guesses and not hard-and-fast facts given there is no actual official canon. 

As for the oblique reference in Asunder, well it was oblique and as such isn't outright inconsistant with Hawke siding with the mages, but it seemed to me to be more indicative of a full annulment myself.  Again, it was oblique enough that it could be read both ways...apparently deliberately so.

-Polaris

[Ferretinabun]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think a mage Hawke still works, but one who still sides with the Templars. It isn't exactly ideal either (I think a more low key Warrior storyline makes sense), but some of the plotlines work with the crazy mages if you were a chantry friendly mage. It's easy for them to assume you're Meredith's errand boy/girl and why they always have instant hatred for you.

While there are certainly issues in act 3, I think the biggest problems with a mage Hawke are in Act 1 when Templars such as Cullen and Emeric have no reason to turn a blind eye to you despite the fact that you're obviously using magic right in front of them. If I'm doing a runthrough where I want to feel as immersed as possible, I do these quests without a single mage in my party at all. Anything else jars horribly (to me at least).

Tranter88 wrote...

This leaves Morrigan and Zevran. My play throughs to date of DA2 are
based on a game where Zevran is alive and thus I get the Murder of Crows
quest. Does this appear anyway like Leliana's resurrection? Other then
that the fate of Zevran isn't really mentioned. Morrigan can't be killed
and she leaves at the end of DA:O either way. Nothing's really hinted
at about the fate of her God baby, or the father, but the conversation
with Flemeth in DA2 on Sundermount and a few lines from the graphic
novels seems to hint at her being alive and with the baby. As Zevran is
off picking up Izzy in Kirkwall and Morrigan has a God Baby, would I be
safe in assuming that a Male Warden romancing Morrigan is the way to go,
performing the Dark Ritual finish?

Zevran's fate is indeed entirely open. The Murder of Crows quest does not fire if he died in DA:O, meaning DA2 establishes no canon as to whether Zev survived Origins or not. There is, however, a bug with Zevran so that he will always proposition Isabela and/or Hawke for sex (he wasn't meant to if he was in a relationship with the Grey Warden). While this is more a bug than story canon, it does mean that a GW hoping Zevran will stay in a monogamous relationship (an open one still works, I guess) with them will be disappointed.

As for Morrigan, I think you're assuming too far. I don't know what you are referring to that hints that Morrigan has the OGB, or that it was fathered by the warden rather than Alistair. Unless it is Leliana's reference at the end of DA2 that the GW has 'disappeared', implying the possibility that they followed Morrigan through the eluvian, but at the same time it isn't really a lot to go on.

I have been idly wondering if any particular origin for the GW makes slightly more sense than any other. One thing I have noticed is that Merrill will mention, in a party conversation with Anders, that she met a Grey Warden once - Duncan. This rather implies the Dalish Elf origin as canon for the GW. On the other hand, if that were the case, then the retcons to the Dalish tribe's looks and accents in DA2 bugs me.

Also note that one of Anders' Awakening epilogues leads rather more neatly into the DA2 plot than the others - if left to defend a not-fully-upgraded keep, his body will be discovered with an arrow through the neck. This will be revealed in the DA2 sidequest Finding Nathaniel as Anders' escape attempt from the Wardens by faking his own death. This is the best Awakening epilogue for Anders since it accounts for his immediate flight to Kirkwall - other epilogues imply him hanging around for substancial periods of time after the battle at Kigil's Keep, which contradicts DA2's timeline for him.

Also, one of Leliana's Origins epilogues works quite well for her - if she left Marjolaine alive in DA:O and is not in a relationship with the Warden, then she will return to Orlais to seek Marjolaine out. This seems to be a rather better setup for her becoming a Seeker than leading an investigation into the darkspawn, leading an expedition to the Urn of Sacred Ashes, or running adventuring by her lovers' side. Though I still can't decide whether being hardened or not fits better.

Modifié par Ferretinabun, 10 mai 2013 - 09:19 .

[Ferretinabun]

StreetMagic wrote...

Personally, I see Hawke as a warrior too, but not a Templar. An Ash Warrior type from Ferelden. Ash Warriors are Andraste adherents too.

The sidenote to this backstory that amuses me is in DAO, when your Warden approaches Lothering and encounters those bandits on the bridge.. If you interrogate him about survivors from Ostagar, he says that everyone he's seen weren't soldiers, except a few Ash Warriors. "Got right out of their way." Very few other soldiers would survive that battle, except those badasses. I like to think Hawke was one of them. Hawke's got a mabari and an ash warrior heavy armor set in the Warrior DLC (Armor of Gelgenig the Faithful, a religious relic of sorts). At least this helps find a settling role for me, mentally speaking. It helps explain why he/she stands out from the fray, but not overly so.

Good catch. I'd missed all that.

[Fast Jimmy]

I could definitely see a pro-Templar Hawke as being canon, simply because of the mindset Cassandra had during the investigation.

Remember that a pro-Templar Hawke is named Viscount after the events of DA2. Would it not have been entirely possible that, as an outsider looking in, someone couldn't see Hawke going to the Deep Roads looking for the idol, planted it within Meredith's possession (using the brother of one of his closest confidants), then used the circumstances to kill his mother's killer's accomplice (Orsino), remove Meredith from power, and seize the throne of Kirkwall with the Templar's under his thumb?

Really, when you view it like that, Hawke seems like a genius mastermind, who has access to lots of hidden knowledge and is an excellent manipulator of people and events. It is not shock that Cassandra thought he might be the only one to keep things from falling apart.

Unfortunately, Hawke is just an (un)lucky schmuck who couldn't subterfuge his way out of a wet paper bag. So the joke's on Cassandra.

[Ferretinabun]

StreetMagic wrote...

Oh, and in addtion to that, I like to think Carver and Bethany both die

This also makes sense to me. I agree that a pro-templar Hawke makes the most sense in Act 3, but the biggest problem with that is going through with the Act of Annulment if Bethany is in the Circle.

She could become a Warden, of course, but then she does have a habit of popping up at convenient moments - both the big end-of-act battles in acts 2 and 3, plus possibly Legacy and MotA as well (though Legacy is arguably slightly less contrived). It strains the plot less if she's simply dead in the Deep Roads.

Poor Bethany. The sacrifices we make for story immersion.