153 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...


Why can't we sacrifice Liara instead?

Because Liara is a better character than Kaidan, and Kaidan makes a better ash pile. <_<

If they allow Shep to save Kaidan and Ashley instead, there would be no Asari stalker.  

...without whom, Shepard isn't recurrected and the Collectors obtain Shepard's corpse. The Reapers likely win as well.

The whole 'Liara is a stalker' argument, like the argument that Ashley is a bible-thumping racist, is nothing more than BSN hyperbole that isn't actually backed up by the dialogue and events in the game.

Not really.

Different opinions are different.

I also thought she was a better character than Tali, even in ME1, which was Liara's weakest chapter.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 28 février 2013 - 10:15 .

[nrobbiec]

Han Shot First wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...


Why can't we sacrifice Liara instead?

Because Liara is a better character than Kaidan, and Kaidan makes a better ash pile. <_<

If they allow Shep to save Kaidan and Ashley instead, there would be no Asari stalker.  

...without whom, Shepard isn't recurrected and the Collectors obtain Shepard's corpse.

Without Kaidan, Shepard doesn't get laid 

[Battlebloodmage]

Han Shot First wrote...




...without whom, Shepard isn't recurrected and the Collectors obtain Shepard's corpse. The Reapers likely win as well.

The whole 'Liara is a stalker' argument, like the argument that Ashley is a bible-thumping racist, is nothing more than BSN hyperbole that isn't actually backed up by the dialogue and events in the game.

Not really.

Different opinions are different.

I also thought she was a better character than Tali, even in ME1, which was Liara's weakest chapter.

In ME universe, if one were dead or exile, he/she is being replaced by someone else like with Tali, Legion, Grunt, Ashley/Kaidan. Who know? Someone else may have saved Shepard instead. 

Tali is a much better character than Liari in every single game. Like you said, different opinions are different. 

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 28 février 2013 - 10:24 .

[Mooner911]

Somehow, Ash, for me, went from an irritating religious bigot who liked not-my-cuppa-tea poetry and had a few sisters, to a mono-dimensional "wtf is she doing still in my game" character who had no other part to play but continue whining about her sister. Kaiden remained relevant while Ash imploded. Kinda like the friend you wish you'd never met.
Next replay definitely won't include her.

[bd223437]

For me it's really no contest, I always keep Kaidan. I just don't find Williams particularly useful as a squad member and her personality is neither attractive nor intriguing to me in any capacity. I'm glad some people disagree, because it is interesting to hear differing opinions, but thus far, none of the arguments in favor of Ashley have managed to help me complete a play through with her in it.

[DeinonSlayer]

Hervoyl wrote...

Bierwichtel wrote...
I admit, a commissioned officer is usually the one to be chosen to survive in a situation akin to Virmire, yet Kaidan is not Command material, Ash might be one day (my perception of the characterisation in ME1)...

The difference in rank is why I go with Kaidan if I'm doing a "realistic" playthrough - saving Ash feels more like chivalry than tactics (and that's not a slam on other playstyles - it's a game, so I was happy to play the chivalrous hero the first couple of times through). 

It's similarly one of the things that I find immersion-breaking in 3 - Kaidan's promotion is a bit much, but not unbelievably so, while Ash's crosses the line into impossibility for me.

Realistically, I'd leave Lieutenant Alenko, the tech, to set up the bomb. Ashley helps Kirrahe's men fight. I then go to the tower to pick up Captain Kirrahe (who you actually find there if you go to the tower instead of the bomb site). It never made sense how the Salarians get off the planet otherwise. Kirrahe is higher-ranking than either Ashley or Kaidan, and may have intel vital to the mission. That's how I chose in my canon playthrough, and MShep didn't romance anyone in ME1.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 01 mars 2013 - 12:42 .

[Han Shot First]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Hervoyl wrote...

Bierwichtel wrote...
I admit, a commissioned officer is usually the one to be chosen to survive in a situation akin to Virmire, yet Kaidan is not Command material, Ash might be one day (my perception of the characterisation in ME1)...

The difference in rank is why I go with Kaidan if I'm doing a "realistic" playthrough - saving Ash feels more like chivalry than tactics (and that's not a slam on other playstyles - it's a game, so I was happy to play the chivalrous hero the first couple of times through). 

It's similarly one of the things that I find immersion-breaking in 3 - Kaidan's promotion is a bit much, but not unbelievably so, while Ash's crosses the line into impossibility for me.

Realistically, I'd leave Lieutenant Alenko, the tech, to set up the bomb. Ashley helps Kirrahe's men fight. I then go to the tower to pick up Captain Kirrahe (who you actually find there if you go to the tower instead of the bomb site). It never made sense how the Salarians get off the planet otherwise. Kirrahe is higher-ranking than either Ashley or Kaidan, and may have intel vital to the mission. That's how I chose in my canon playthrough, and MShep didn't romance anyone in ME1.

I played it the same way and for the same reasons.

I left Kaidan with the bomb because he was the tech specialist and opted to save Ashley because she was also with the Salarians. IMO it would have played out better had the Salarians also been lost if Shepard opted to save whomever was the bomb site. Their survival doesn't make sense if Shepard goes back to the bomb.

[nrobbiec]

Mine was similar just the other way around - Ashley was with Salarians but Kirrahe was dead. So went back for Kaidan. That and Kaidan is his LI.

[Battlebloodmage]

nrobbiec wrote...

Mine was similar just the other way around - Ashley was with Salarians but Kirrahe was dead. So went back for Kaidan. That and Kaidan is his LI.

Bros before hoes.

[DeinonSlayer]

Han Shot First wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Hervoyl wrote...

Bierwichtel wrote...
I admit, a commissioned officer is usually the one to be chosen to survive in a situation akin to Virmire, yet Kaidan is not Command material, Ash might be one day (my perception of the characterisation in ME1)...

The difference in rank is why I go with Kaidan if I'm doing a "realistic" playthrough - saving Ash feels more like chivalry than tactics (and that's not a slam on other playstyles - it's a game, so I was happy to play the chivalrous hero the first couple of times through). 

It's similarly one of the things that I find immersion-breaking in 3 - Kaidan's promotion is a bit much, but not unbelievably so, while Ash's crosses the line into impossibility for me.

Realistically, I'd leave Lieutenant Alenko, the tech, to set up the bomb. Ashley helps Kirrahe's men fight. I then go to the tower to pick up Captain Kirrahe (who you actually find there if you go to the tower instead of the bomb site). It never made sense how the Salarians get off the planet otherwise. Kirrahe is higher-ranking than either Ashley or Kaidan, and may have intel vital to the mission. That's how I chose in my canon playthrough, and MShep didn't romance anyone in ME1.

I played it the same way and for the same reasons.

I left Kaidan with the bomb because he was the tech specialist and opted to save Ashley because she was also with the Salarians. IMO it would have played out better had the Salarians also been lost if Shepard opted to save whomever was the bomb site. Their survival doesn't make sense if Shepard goes back to the bomb.

And on the flip side of that, the Normandy left a good chunk of its marine detail guarding the bomb site. I'd say the saluting door guards should have been missing if you saved the Salarians.

[devilsgrin]

Kaidan always over ash. Whilst she may not be a dictionary definition bigot... she certainly displays a LOT of unpleasant personality traits - not the least is the intrinsic narcissism of all that poetry spouting. "look at me, i know poems. i'm so much more than a grunt."
Ashley has survived Virmire precisely one PT. And i couldn't bring my Shep to romance her over Liara.
Protecting the bomb, and therefore Kaidan, is the only realistic option. The whole point of the mission was to destroy Saren's krogan cloning facility. Leaving it to chance that it may not go off is stupid. A squad of troops providing a valuable diversion is entirely expendable. Sure we'd like them to survive. But their deaths are a price we're willing to pay to ensure a successful mission.

[Nightdragon8]

you know.... i find i kind of sad that no one even gives a crap about Kirrahe... my first ME play though blind, I had Kadian set the bomb (because he said he had the most experience with it) and Ash with Kirrahe

and when brought down with the choice I picked Ash and Kirrahe

So in reality I picked the choice that saved more lives in the end. Had nothing to do with "personality" in my choice.

[devSin]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

So in reality I picked the choice that saved more lives in the end. Had nothing to do with "personality" in my choice.

Saving the person you send with the salarians has nothing to do with Kirrahe surviving. (Kirrahe's not even with the same team that Ashley or Kaidan is leading.)

What you do during the approach to the base and once you're inside determines which salarians you're able to evacuate.

Modifié par devSin, 01 mars 2013 - 02:48 .

[idunhavaname]

90% of the time, I would choose Ashley. Her character story felt abit lacking in ME3 though compared to the rest of the crew.

In ME1 there was at least a display of progression from xenophobia but literally nothing happened with her in ME3. Becoming a spectre was literally the only thing she had and even then it wasn't that interesting.

[GoldFlsh]

devSin wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

So in reality I picked the choice that saved more lives in the end. Had nothing to do with "personality" in my choice.

Saving the person you send with the salarians has nothing to do with Kirrahe surviving. (Kirrahe's not even with the same team that Ashley or Kaidan is leading.)

What you do during the approach to the base and once you're inside determines which salarians you're able to evacuate.

Yea, if you're metagaming...that's true. But Ash is with a group of Salarians, yes ok gamewise ALL the Salarians survive if you do all the side missions. But roleplaying, that makes no sense. You save Kaiden AND the bomb OR you save Ash AND the Salarians. That's what it boils down to, assuming that's where you sent them. 

Yes both the bomb AND the Salarians are fine regardless of who you pick, but those things if you're roleplaying should also factor into your decisions, too!

P.S. Ashley all the way, I loved her no nonsense attitude.  Definitely not racist, it was Ash/Garrus (except Virmire obviously, then it was Wrex) in all my teams up until Saren and they got along just fine. She talked that Terra Firma party down, cuz >they< are the bunch of bigots. It's ok for her to be cautious. I suppose it came off wrong, but I never once felt she expressed any more or less skepticism than any other humans. Even Joker thinks curing the genophage in ME3 (regardless of whether Wrex is alive) is the wrong decision, but everybody overlooks all his comments, because he's "funny".

Modifié par GoldFlsh, 01 mars 2013 - 03:38 .

[Battlebloodmage]

GoldFlsh wrote...

devSin wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

So in reality I picked the choice that saved more lives in the end. Had nothing to do with "personality" in my choice.

Saving the person you send with the salarians has nothing to do with Kirrahe surviving. (Kirrahe's not even with the same team that Ashley or Kaidan is leading.)

What you do during the approach to the base and once you're inside determines which salarians you're able to evacuate.

Yea, if you're metagaming...that's true. But Ash is with a group of Salarians, yes ok gamewise ALL the Salarians survive if you do all the side missions. But roleplaying, that makes no sense. You save Kaiden AND the bomb OR you save Ash AND the Salarians. That's what it boils down to, assuming that's where you sent them. 

Yes both the bomb AND the Salarians are fine regardless of who you pick, but those things if you're roleplaying should also factor into your decisions, too!

P.S. Ashley all the way, I loved her no nonsense attitude.  Definitely not racist, it was Ash/Garrus (except Virmire obviously, then it was Wrex) in all my teams up until Saren and they got along just fine. She talked that Terra Firma party down, cuz >they< are the bunch of bigots. It's ok for her to be cautious. I suppose it came off wrong, but I never once felt she expressed any more or less skepticism than any other humans. Even Joker thinks curing the genophage in ME3 (regardless of whether Wrex is alive) is the wrong decision, but everybody overlooks all his comments, because he's "funny".

I don't think it's wise to cure them either. Wrex doesn't live forever, and with the nature of the krogans, sooner or later, they would wage another war against the galaxy. Joker doesn't hate other races, he's just "cautious".

[Exile Isan]

GoldFlsh wrote...

Yea, if you're metagaming...that's true. But Ash is with a group of Salarians, yes ok gamewise ALL the Salarians survive if you do all the side missions. But roleplaying, that makes no sense. You save Kaiden AND the bomb OR you save Ash AND the Salarians. That's what it boils down to, assuming that's where you sent them. 

Yes both the bomb AND the Salarians are fine regardless of who you pick, but those things if you're roleplaying should also factor into your decisions, too!

The the bomb going off is more important than the Salarians and I'm sure Captain Kirrahe would agree.

And to say you save the person at the tower because it saves the Salarians as well is metagaming too.

[GoldFlsh]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
I don't think it's wise to cure them either. Wrex doesn't live forever, and with the nature of the krogans, sooner or later, they would wage another war against the galaxy. Joker doesn't hate other races, he's just "cautious".

No different than Ashley is "cautious" in that case, which was exactly my point. :happy:

Exile Isan wrote...

The the bomb going off is more important than the Salarians and I'm sure Captain Kirrahe would agree. 

And to say you save the person at the tower because it saves the Salarians as well is metagaming too. 

How on Earth(Virmire? ) is it metagaming? Ashley was leading a squad of Salarians, you know they're there... The Salarians live either way, the bomb detonates either way(this is the metagaming part). But if you want to make the choice more than "Ashley or Kaiden" you factor in those things aswell. 

In my game, I sent Kaiden with the bomb, he said he's setting it to detonate. He says no matter what this bomb is going off etcetc. My Shep trusted him to get the job done, so she went to get Ashley and the Salarians. I actually sat at that decision spot for a few minutes, really they both shoulda died the amount of time it took me to think about it, even though I disliked Kaiden from the getgo, I had to think "What Would (My) Shepard Do" 

[dpMeggers]

Joining the Kaidan/Ash bomb/salarians debate here:

5/6 times for me, Kaidan set up the bomb and the bomb got saved (the other time he set up the bomb and Ash got saved). Sure he says he's going to make sure the bomb goes off no matter what but that really isn't a risk I (as Shepard) am willing to take when I'm facing off against a whole pile of unfriendly AIs who get smarter in groups and presumably know how to defuse bombs pretty damn quickly. It just seemed like a no-brainer that if I didn't save the bomb, the situation could wind up going very badly, very quickly.

As for which I prefer in ME3, I really can't answer that, as I haven't finished the playthrough in which Ash was saved, mainly because roleplaying as that particular Shep was boring.

[Exile Isan]

dpMeggers wrote...

Joining the Kaidan/Ash bomb/salarians debate here:

5/6 times for me, Kaidan set up the bomb and the bomb got saved (the other time he set up the bomb and Ash got saved). Sure he says he's going to make sure the bomb goes off no matter what but that really isn't a risk I (as Shepard) am willing to take when I'm facing off against a whole pile of unfriendly AIs who get smarter in groups and presumably know how to defuse bombs pretty damn quickly. It just seemed like a no-brainer that if I didn't save the bomb, the situation could wind up going very badly, very quickly.

This. This is what I was getting at. The bomb actually going off is more important than the salarians, Kaidan or Ashley. And I roleplayed it that way, I went back for the bomb. The person who got saved there just happened to be in the right place (in my case Kaidan).

Modifié par Exile Isan, 01 mars 2013 - 07:04 .

[GoldFlsh]

dpMeggers wrote...

5/6 times for me, Kaidan set up the bomb and the bomb got saved (the other time he set up the bomb and Ash got saved). Sure he says he's going to make sure the bomb goes off no matter what but that really isn't a risk I (as Shepard) am willing to take when I'm facing off against a whole pile of unfriendly AIs who get smarter in groups and presumably know how to defuse bombs pretty damn quickly. It just seemed like a no-brainer that if I didn't save the bomb, the situation could wind up going very badly, very quickly.

So true. I definitely leaned towards Ashley cuz I liked her more, so...but the bomb is what made it a difficult decision for me. I was like...my shepard would go for the bomb...but Kaiden is so boring...wahwah  finally I justified it to myself as trusting Kaiden to get it done. Was he alone with the bomb? Who's bright idea was it to leave him alone in the first place? 

[Exile Isan]

GoldFlsh wrote...
Was he alone with the bomb? Who's bright idea was it to leave him alone in the first place? 

I assumed whoever was there with the Ash/Kaidan got killed. As Kaidan (or Ash) is wounded when you haul them onto the Normandy. The big question is where the hell did the Normandy go after it dropped off the bomb? And why didn't it destroy the geth drop ship before it dropped troops since it wasn't on the ground anymore?

Modifié par Exile Isan, 01 mars 2013 - 07:08 .

[GoldFlsh]

Suppose ME3 wasn't the only one with inconsistencies and logic breaks.

[RustySam]

In all my playthroughs Kaidan has survived only once to ME3 and he dies in it. I actually had to go back to that playthrough and make sure he survives the <you know what> and joins my crew to get his bonus power(s). Those all-renegade choices don't end well for Virmire Survivor

I guess Kaidan is too whiny a character to be kept around.