341 réponses à ce sujet

[LilyasAvalon]

Lore break in the factor with what Mordin said in ME2, that these things are husks, with or without Reaper thrall.

... For some reason Synthesis creep factor comes back

[Wayning_Star]

multi player vs single player game story. Who needs lore to shoot stuff?

[LilyasAvalon]

And that is why I hate multiplayer. . .

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If we're using some sort of mental projection, as is possible in the lore, it wouldn't really be regaining their own mind: it would be overlying the mind/culture that is the basis of the projection, mingling with their post-sentience development.

If the 'source-code' is, say, Javik, then it would be as much his anger as their own. Or if the Cypher we received is actually a 'Prothean culture is pretty vengeful', as might well have been the case, then again it can be helped by a foreign influence.

They would be man-sized children, then. I'm somewhat okay with that. I'd question their competence in a fight but I'd be (minimally) okay with them 'coming back'. Let them shoot their guns in anger.

Grunt was basically man-sized child too, remember?

Also this mental projection should be more easy with Collector because their brain is partially synthetic. Download additional info to computer is much more easier then to organic brain.

[Colancio]

Lore breaks, lore breaks everywhere,

[Enhanced]

Where's the lore that says that Leviathans can not take control of Collectors and/or give them sentience?

Modifié par Enhanced, 27 février 2013 - 02:24 .

[Auld Wulf]

Why does everyone have to be so utterly... barren? So pedestrian that they can't offer up any potential answers to problems posed, rather than just complaining? Complaining like dead-eyed drones, not unlike the Collectors that Mordin himself found so repungnant. It depresses me.

"Oh, so they retconned it!"

That's the only possibility? Really? I can't be arsed to continue reading because it's so depressing, so I don't know if this ever came up but...

The Leviathans likely freed another Collector General. Since more than one of those can exist.

Essentially, the friendly Collectors in multiplayer are all being controlled by a free-willed, friendly Collector General. The Collector Generals weren't huskified and likely had all of the components for free will, they were just being controlled by Harbinger. So the Leviathans free this sole Collector they happen across... and lo, friendly Collectors!

Really... I just don't understand. Is this a generation of youth where you expect all of your thinking to be done for you?

[BirdsallSa]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Why does everyone have to be so utterly... barren? So pedestrian that they can't offer up any potential answers to problems posed, rather than just complaining? Complaining like dead-eyed drones, not unlike the Collectors that Mordin himself found so repungnant. It depresses me.

"Oh, so they retconned it!"

That's the only possibility? Really? I can't be arsed to continue reading because it's so depressing, so I don't know if this ever came up but...

The Leviathans likely freed another Collector General. Since more than one of those can exist.

Essentially, the friendly Collectors in multiplayer are all being controlled by a free-willed, friendly Collector General. The Collector Generals weren't huskified and likely had all of the components for free will, they were just being controlled by Harbinger. So the Leviathans free this sole Collector they happen across... and lo, friendly Collectors!

Really... I just don't understand. Is this a generation of youth where you expect all of your thinking to be done for you?

My point exactly. I really find the larger principle behind the awakened collector quite beautiful. Now at first glance of the story, one might find it impossible. How does a creature who has been genetically manufactured over a course of tens of thousands of years suddenly start to "fight for the memory" of its long dead race. Simple. It shows that the spirit can never truly be destroyed no matter how much time, genetic alterations or other story reasons are involved in developing a plotline.

[Jenonax]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The Leviathans likely freed another Collector General. Since more than one of those can exist.

Essentially, the friendly Collectors in multiplayer are all being controlled by a free-willed, friendly Collector General. The Collector Generals weren't huskified and likely had all of the components for free will, they were just being controlled by Harbinger. So the Leviathans free this sole Collector they happen across... and lo, friendly Collectors!

Really... I just don't understand. Is this a generation of youth where you expect all of your thinking to be done for you?

If we are going under the assumption that the awakened Collectors do in fact have the capacity for free will and are not just under the control and influence of the Leviathans now, then yes I'm afraid it is a lore break.

The Collectors have to be indoctrinated.  Their vital functions are replaced with Reaper tech and as we see Reaper tech indoctrinates people.  We also know that indoctrination eventually leaves people's minds degraded beyond repair.  We see this with husks which are the last stage of indoctrination and reaper tech implantation - just sped up.  

Then there's Vigil, who describes what happens to the thralls and husks left behind after the Reaper's retreated back into dark space, thus breaking their hold over their minions.  They wandered around mindless and without direction and eventually let themselves starve to death.  

Now it they are like that after a couple of hundred years maximum, then what are the Collectors like after 50,000 years?  What semblance of their minds could possibly be left.  None whatsoever.

'Friendly' Collectors under Leviathan control and thus friendly in the sense that they are fighting on our side and not shooting us in the head, then yeah, that holds up.  Friendly as in freed of Reaper influence, have free will and are 'awakened' like indoctrination is a bad dream and not irreversible mental degredation, then no, it doesn't work.

Though I suspect the latter is not what that description actually intends and they are just meant to be under Leviathan control.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Why does everyone have to be so utterly... barren? So pedestrian that they can't offer up any potential answers to problems posed, rather than just complaining? Complaining like dead-eyed drones, not unlike the Collectors that Mordin himself found so repungnant. It depresses me.

"Oh, so they retconned it!"

That's the only possibility? Really? I can't be arsed to continue reading because it's so depressing, so I don't know if this ever came up but...

The Leviathans likely freed another Collector General. Since more than one of those can exist.

Essentially, the friendly Collectors in multiplayer are all being controlled by a free-willed, friendly Collector General. The Collector Generals weren't huskified and likely had all of the components for free will, they were just being controlled by Harbinger. So the Leviathans free this sole Collector they happen across... and lo, friendly Collectors!

Really... I just don't understand. Is this a generation of youth where you expect all of your thinking to be done for you?

While I agree with the general sentiment (insults and passive-aggressiveness aside):

Collector general


Awakened collector

So no, it's not a collector general.

[archangel1996]

Mmmm, are these the guys i spent a game trying to kil?
Now ME2 is complete nonsense, bravo BW

[eddieoctane]

Wayning_Star wrote...

multi player vs single player game story. Who needs lore to shoot stuff?

If we don't need lore, why isn't a competetive MP mode "lore-breaking"? Either lore matters or it doesn't, but BioWare can't seem to decide.

[Sovereign330]

Jadebaby wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

Well the character's description will settle this debate.

When the Reaper-killer known as Leviathan fought the Collectors, it severed their connection to Harbringer with a thrall device. Most Collector forces died as a result, but a few survived. Now, these rare individuals fight for the memory of their people, a proud race broken by the Reapers.

Protheans appointed avatars to embody and model a single virtue for their society. The Awakened Collectors' virtue is vengeance.

Are you telling me this is the character description?

When did the Leviathan fight the collectors exactly?

You're overanalyzing. Understandable. Bad habit that I have as well. Fought the collectors in the sense that Leviathan's enthrallment team encountered them. It doesn't literally mean the Leviathan jumped out of the water and was like "Yo collectors...let's d-d-d-d-d-ddd-duelllll"  Through the enthrallment device, the connection to harbinger was broken and leviathan (naturally as we saw in the DLC with the brutes) seized control. Free from harby's influence (hence the awakened), these collectors are now the last remnants of prothean opposition to reaper forces. If they die, the Protheans will forever be a lost memory (hence that figurative line where they fight for the memory). The collector didnt walk up and say (yo i fight for memz and shiz)...thats just not possible...but what I just said..fits exactly...If it wasn't worded so badly, it wouldn't be an issue but yes, This thing is a thrall of the Leviathans, a character created in direct response to the "Collector Thralls for MP" thread

[Applepie_Svk]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Why does everyone have to be so utterly... barren? So pedestrian that they can't offer up any potential answers to problems posed, rather than just complaining? Complaining like dead-eyed drones, not unlike the Collectors that Mordin himself found so repungnant. It depresses me.

"Oh, so they retconned it!"

That's the only possibility? Really? I can't be arsed to continue reading because it's so depressing, so I don't know if this ever came up but...

The Leviathans likely freed another Collector General. Since more than one of those can exist.

Essentially, the friendly Collectors in multiplayer are all being controlled by a free-willed, friendly Collector General. The Collector Generals weren't huskified and likely had all of the components for free will, they were just being controlled by Harbinger. So the Leviathans free this sole Collector they happen across... and lo, friendly Collectors!

Really... I just don't understand. Is this a generation of youth where you expect all of your thinking to be done for you?

To begin with you mumbo-jumbo, whatever you believe Collectors in general are nothing more then empty shells serving their purpose, the most of their vitals were replaced with reaper tech ergo there is no soul, no memories, no personality, no regrets... and so on... to begin with there was no Collector general freed as some kind of higher wise authority, but just a husk serving to Leviathans. You should paid more attention to lore...

What´s funny about this retcon is a fact that they couldn´t managed to kept their previously estabilished bad writing  ergo Leviathans has to be either in close proximity to their target or they have to use orbs, so I´ve played dozen of MP maps and never saw either of them.

as you said... "where you expect all of your thinking to be done for you?"

Otherwise ? Well, obvious troll is obvious...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 27 février 2013 - 05:40 .

[Sovereign330]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Why does everyone have to be so utterly... barren? So pedestrian that they can't offer up any potential answers to problems posed, rather than just complaining? Complaining like dead-eyed drones, not unlike the Collectors that Mordin himself found so repungnant. It depresses me.

"Oh, so they retconned it!"

That's the only possibility? Really? I can't be arsed to continue reading because it's so depressing, so I don't know if this ever came up but...

The Leviathans likely freed another Collector General. Since more than one of those can exist.

Essentially, the friendly Collectors in multiplayer are all being controlled by a free-willed, friendly Collector General. The Collector Generals weren't huskified and likely had all of the components for free will, they were just being controlled by Harbinger. So the Leviathans free this sole Collector they happen across... and lo, friendly Collectors!

Really... I just don't understand. Is this a generation of youth where you expect all of your thinking to be done for you?

To begin with you mumbo-jumbo, whatever you believe Collectors in general are nothing more then empty shells serving their purpose, the most of their vitals were replaced with reaper tech ergo there is no soul, no memories, no personality, no regrets... and so on... to begin with there was no Collector general freed as some kind of higher authority, but just a husk serving to Leviathans.

What´s funny about this retcon is a fact that they couldn´t managed to kept their previously estabilished bad writing  ergo Leviathans has to be either in close proximity to their target or they have to use orbs, so I´ve played dozen of MP maps and never saw either of them.

as you said... "where you expect all of your thinking to be done for you?"

Otherwise ? Well, obvious troll is obvious...

Thats because they werent freed. The term "awakened" only goes so far as being freedfrom Harbinger's influence (which they made the point of saying with severing the connection with a thrall device)

We know what thrall devices do. They enthrall. Not true about the close proximity. It only requires exposure for a prolonged period of time. The shorter the time, the more necessity for the thrall device. But the longer the time, the less need.  A much less effective method of indoctrination, but there you have it.

EDIT: To be fair, this only applies to non sentient beings like husks and collectors. Sentient beings can be freed by destroying artifacts.

Modifié par Sovereign330, 27 février 2013 - 05:59 .

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Why does everyone have to be so utterly... barren? So pedestrian that they can't offer up any potential answers to problems posed, rather than just complaining? Complaining like dead-eyed drones, not unlike the Collectors that Mordin himself found so repungnant. It depresses me.

"Oh, so they retconned it!"

That's the only possibility? Really? I can't be arsed to continue reading because it's so depressing, so I don't know if this ever came up but...

The Leviathans likely freed another Collector General. Since more than one of those can exist.

Essentially, the friendly Collectors in multiplayer are all being controlled by a free-willed, friendly Collector General. The Collector Generals weren't huskified and likely had all of the components for free will, they were just being controlled by Harbinger. So the Leviathans free this sole Collector they happen across... and lo, friendly Collectors!

Really... I just don't understand. Is this a generation of youth where you expect all of your thinking to be done for you?

1. Mmm, yes, this generation needs more contempt for people who don't agree with them, definitely. 

2. This is a two paragraph block of text that's very detail light. "Speculations" and vagueness leading to assumptions about how this could have happened is unsatisfying worldbuilding. Making changes and then not explaining how they could have happened is not some brilliant technique the audience should be panned for not "getting." This should have been its own story in a comic, book or game, not a few sentences.

3. "Now these rare individuals fight for the memory of their people [...] The Awaken Collectors' virtue is vengeance.""

vs.

"Essentially, the friendly Collectors in multiplayer are all being controlled by a free-willed, friendly Collector General."

Hmmm - if you're going to pretend more than everyone else, your explanation could at least match to the two paragraphs we're given. The issue isn't that the Leviathians are able to get Collectors - they could have done that with orbs. The confusion is the idea of huskified creatures en masse gaining awareness and how that deserves more of an explanation.

---

*Psst.*

I think this generation actually could do with making *LESS* assumptions overconfidently and have a higher bar for evidence, but that's just me.

[RedBeardJim]

It's multiplayer. Multiplayer will also tell you you're winning the war.

[eddieoctane]

Sovereign330 wrote...

You're overanalyzing. Understandable. Bad habit that I have as well. Fought the collectors in the sense that Leviathan's enthrallment team encountered them. It doesn't literally mean the Leviathan jumped out of the water and was like "Yo collectors...let's d-d-d-d-d-ddd-duelllll"  Through the enthrallment device, the connection to harbinger was broken and leviathan (naturally as we saw in the DLC with the brutes) seized control. Free from harby's influence (hence the awakened), these collectors are now the last remnants of prothean opposition to reaper forces. If they die, the Protheans will forever be a lost memory (hence that figurative line where they fight for the memory). The collector didnt walk up and say (yo i fight for memz and shiz)...thats just not possible...but what I just said..fits exactly...If it wasn't worded so badly, it wouldn't be an issue but yes, This thing is a thrall of the Leviathans, a character created in direct response to the "Collector Thralls for MP" thread

Let's divide that bolded part into two halves. For the sake of logical consistency, I'm going to place the second half first. After all, the second half explains what we are going to play as. An "awakened Collector" is free. If one Reaper took over because Harbinger was busy, they aren't awakened. Makes perfect sense.

But now we have the second (or first) statement. The Leviathans took control. But if you substitute one slave master for another, the "awakened" bit is illogical. We just established that. YOU established that. So we have a problem. If the Leviathans are in control, we don't get an awakened character. There's another possibility, though.  Perhaps the Leviathans simply set the Collectors free. Well, that would make sense given the character name.  But if the Leviathans can simply free the minds of anyone controlled by the Reapers, how'd the Catalyst get the drop on them? Why not just disable the Reaper control on any indoctrinated individuals and watch the Reapers backfire?

No matter what, something here doesn't make sense. Lore consistency has gone out the window in ME3. There's no "over-analysis" here. Any analysis cause the whole game to break down. The least bit of scrutiny causes the plot to unravel. It's a sad day for gaming when the players obviously care far more about the game than the developers.

[Sovereign330]

eddieoctane wrote...

Sovereign330 wrote...

You're overanalyzing. Understandable. Bad habit that I have as well. Fought the collectors in the sense that Leviathan's enthrallment team encountered them. It doesn't literally mean the Leviathan jumped out of the water and was like "Yo collectors...let's d-d-d-d-d-ddd-duelllll"  Through the enthrallment device, the connection to harbinger was broken and leviathan (naturally as we saw in the DLC with the brutes) seized control. Free from harby's influence (hence the awakened), these collectors are now the last remnants of prothean opposition to reaper forces. If they die, the Protheans will forever be a lost memory (hence that figurative line where they fight for the memory). The collector didnt walk up and say (yo i fight for memz and shiz)...thats just not possible...but what I just said..fits exactly...If it wasn't worded so badly, it wouldn't be an issue but yes, This thing is a thrall of the Leviathans, a character created in direct response to the "Collector Thralls for MP" thread

Let's divide that bolded part into two halves. For the sake of logical consistency, I'm going to place the second half first. After all, the second half explains what we are going to play as. An "awakened Collector" is free. If one Reaper took over because Harbinger was busy, they aren't awakened. Makes perfect sense.

But now we have the second (or first) statement. The Leviathans took control. But if you substitute one slave master for another, the "awakened" bit is illogical. We just established that. YOU established that. So we have a problem. If the Leviathans are in control, we don't get an awakened character. There's another possibility, though.  Perhaps the Leviathans simply set the Collectors free. Well, that would make sense given the character name.  But if the Leviathans can simply free the minds of anyone controlled by the Reapers, how'd the Catalyst get the drop on them? Why not just disable the Reaper control on any indoctrinated individuals and watch the Reapers backfire?

No matter what, something here doesn't make sense. Lore consistency has gone out the window in ME3. There's no "over-analysis" here. Any analysis cause the whole game to break down. The least bit of scrutiny causes the plot to unravel. It's a sad day for gaming when the players obviously care far more about the game than the developers.

I just told you the wording is a fail. What they meant by it, is not a fail. Simply the wording is a fail...which gives no one any reason to go up in arms other than "So they worded it this way to sound cool?"....yup..pretty much

Again what they meant is more important. Free from HARBINGER!...A non sentient being like a mindless collector can never be free. Mordin reassures us of this. They fight their former masters and I think that's what they were getting at. Naming? Fail. Backstory? Not fail

Modifié par Sovereign330, 27 février 2013 - 07:12 .

[Endgame22]

Well this is interesting turn of events when i watched the trailer and i saw that it was so awesome but yeah the codex entry i feel doesn't explain enough.

[Sovereign330]

Endgame22 wrote...

Well this is interesting turn of events when i watched the trailer and i saw that it was so awesome but yeah the codex entry i feel doesn't explain enough.

i think it does more than enough if you read it properly...woulda helped if it was worded better but yes..its a levy thrall

[Dup3r]

LOL... 13+ pages of drama over this?

This is fiction. It's for fun and playing the AC is a LOT of fun. Stretching the continuity in this game to make something fit because the devs thought this would be cool is nothing ... NOTHING compared to what's done in the comic industry.

Go and watch what MovieBob (at true fanboy in his own right) has to say about this stuff. I think he does a good job putting in perspective.

http://www.escapistm...Continuity-Wars

[Sovereign330]

try...trying to explain it for that many pages lol

[TheCrazyHobo]

I am not sure if they could retain their memories unless they had memory shards (Like Javiks) stuffed in their heads. I say this because I remember somebody in ME2 stating that they were clones hence why they could still be around 50,000 years after the Protheans went extinct.

OH, and I highly doubt anyone should consider MP canon, so all the fuss is irrelevant.

[Sovereign330]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

I am not sure if they could retain their memories unless they had memory shards (Like Javiks) stuffed in their heads. I say this because I remember somebody in ME2 stating that they were clones hence why they could still be around 50,000 years after the Protheans went extinct.

OH, and I highly doubt anyone should consider MP canon, so all the fuss is irrelevant.

theyre thralls. if they die, then the protheans become a lost memory. thats all that line means...anyway yes i consider it canon and taking place in the war