341 réponses à ce sujet

[Jassu1979]

JamesFaith wrote...
Also Grayson in ME: Retribution kept his personality even after Reapers turned him to husk, and regained it again before he died.

That's right: he *kept* his personality, meaning that he had one before being turned into a thrall.
The same cannot be said about the Collectors. They never had a chance to develop a personality.

[Wayning_Star]

Javik is hard headed.

[UrgentArchengel]

It's a slight recon, not really a big deal considering there a very few. Besides, it's not that massive of a lore breaker. It's only the avatars of vengeance, and we all know Zaeed's famous line about rage. They may not be completely normal, but the could have enough of a conscience to know the bare basics that they were Prothean, and changed by giant metal cuttlefish of death. They wouldn't be like Javik, and more closer to a vegetable.

[MrGMM88]

Bioware quality writing!

They really dont give a **** anymore

[Slayer299]

Jassu1979 wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

Ah yes, Mordin and his rigorous soul-detection suite of tests. If the strip turns blue, you have a soul. Strip turns yellow: no soul.

It should be quite obvious that Mordin, being the scientist that he is, uses the term "soul" as a metaphor, just as he seems to be fond of referencing all sorts of mythology.
Collectors do not have a culture. They are static beings, frozen in time - and in that sense, "soulless".

Given that they've been born as thralls to the Reapers, I find it extremely unlikely that they could "awaken", even if the Reapers' control was lifted. There's nothing to wake, as no individual personality could develop under the conditions they were placed in.
It's like opening the cage of an animal that was born in captivity, and taught not to leave the boundaries of its enclosure. Even if you removed the bars, it'd stay inside, knowing nothing else.

^^ This in a hatbox says it all

[phillip100]

Is nobody reading the background of the Awakened Collector or what? Because it makes it very clear that the Leviathans are controlling it.

[Jenonax]

There could be serious lore consequences to this. Regardless of what they are if Bioware were going to do this, it should have been done in the SP campaign as well not just MP where it can't be explained properly. I doubt highly this will be in the Citadel DLC but I may be wrong. If not Synthesis just got a whole lot ickier in my opinion.

[Tron Mega]

is this how bioware tries to make collectors part of ME3?

you know, since they forget collectors in ME3.

you oopsed prett good on harbinger too, biwoare.

wheres my harbinger???

[Enhanced]

phillip100 wrote...

Is nobody reading the background of the Awakened Collector or what? Because it makes it very clear that the Leviathans are controlling it.

[Wayning_Star]

Slayer299 wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

Ah yes, Mordin and his rigorous soul-detection suite of tests. If the strip turns blue, you have a soul. Strip turns yellow: no soul.

It should be quite obvious that Mordin, being the scientist that he is, uses the term "soul" as a metaphor, just as he seems to be fond of referencing all sorts of mythology.
Collectors do not have a culture. They are static beings, frozen in time - and in that sense, "soulless".

Given that they've been born as thralls to the Reapers, I find it extremely unlikely that they could "awaken", even if the Reapers' control was lifted. There's nothing to wake, as no individual personality could develop under the conditions they were placed in.
It's like opening the cage of an animal that was born in captivity, and taught not to leave the boundaries of its enclosure. Even if you removed the bars, it'd stay inside, knowing nothing else.

^^ This in a hatbox says it all

I am as much an Ai as you are an animal.

the organic mind is quite unfathomable , as it can withdraw from reality and pop back in at any time, given the correct stimulie. Collectors have enough 'self' to operate independent of reaperships, but their 'main' objectives, in relation to reaperships is controlled by reaperships. Remember indoctrination requires internal nidus, personality traits that can be manipulated for control. Only direct control destroys the subject quickly. Collectors can be free of indoctrination, just as any other organic being can be. They are only engineered for survivability and ease of use. Otherwise, not unlike reaperships, they are/have free reign to do their work. Controlling every aspect of a being would be too taxing on the controller, and a waste of resources when not needed for logistics.

We have collector(s) who 'bucked' the system.

[Wayning_Star]

Enhanced wrote...

phillip100 wrote...

Is nobody reading the background of the Awakened Collector or what? Because it makes it very clear that the Leviathans are controlling it.

if it's controlled by Levi, then it's a Levi,not a collector.

[3DandBeyond]

Jassu1979 wrote...

They've simply ignored what Mordin had to say on the matter before.
Just look at the Synthesis ending.

This.  Nothing is supposedly meant to fit with anything that came before.  Mordin was clear and made a great deal of sense on the whole thing-he put it succinctly.  There is no person left inside a Collector, because the tech took all that away.  The Zha'til are a big example of what likely would happen (especially if what Leviathan programmed the kid to think is true).  If Synthetics take over and will always kill all organics (and the Collectors show the synthetic part getting rid of the organic), then Synthesis won't end well.

[JamesFaith]

Jassu1979 wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
Also Grayson in ME: Retribution kept his personality even after Reapers turned him to husk, and regained it again before he died.

That's right: he *kept* his personality, meaning that he had one before being turned into a thrall.
The same cannot be said about the Collectors. They never had a chance to develop a personality.

You don't know that.

Sure they haven't personality same as human. But they should be similar to aliens from Harry Turtledoves short story Bluff, which is inspired by work of psychologist Julian Jaynes about first hominids.

In short he claimed that there are two level of consciousness.

First nearly lacking self aware and higher thinking - he showed it on example of man who every day walk to job by same way. During this work man didn't think where to go, because he's doing it automatically, he can even think on something totally different then walk, but this lower level of consciousness take care about this process. and find right way.

Second level is thinking as we know it - creativity, problem solving and such.

Aliens in this story never fully developed second level and this "higher thinking" manifested in way of voices of gods or ancestors who were forcing them to f.e. clear irrigation furrow because yesterday rain should block it with mud. But after contact with Terran scientists one alien soldiers is confronted with poker bluff and new concept of lying which helped him to better use of this second level of thinking.

I believe that Collectors should think similar - only first level of thinking + Reapers direction or fully control. And after awakening they still have enough personality to partially accept new concept of thinking. 

Modifié par JamesFaith, 26 février 2013 - 02:14 .

[NeonFlux117]

Again, BioWare want's to ignore ME2. But who really cares.

[phillip100]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Again, BioWare want's to ignore ME2. But who really cares.

How does the Awakened Collector or even the Collectors returning in MP ignore ME2? I thought it was made clear in ME3 that there were still Collectors around in Palaven.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

They've simply ignored what Mordin had to say on the matter before.
Just look at the Synthesis ending.

This.  Nothing is supposedly meant to fit with anything that came before.  Mordin was clear and made a great deal of sense on the whole thing-he put it succinctly.  There is no person left inside a Collector, because the tech took all that away.  The Zha'til are a big example of what likely would happen (especially if what Leviathan programmed the kid to think is true).  If Synthetics take over and will always kill all organics (and the Collectors show the synthetic part getting rid of the organic), then Synthesis won't end well.

synthesis reboots nature to uphold synthetic organic systemology at the natural level. Evolution now,with synthesis, contains basic model of synthetic structure. Makiing it OK to be synthetic, even a plant can be synthetic. Synthetics would be IN everything, directly affecting preconditions. There wouldn't be any.

Organic and synthetic reality. ONE big happy family tree. Or compendium as the Geth seems to call it. Taking over would have a whole new meaning.

just say'n

[3DandBeyond]

Slayer299 wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

Ah yes, Mordin and his rigorous soul-detection suite of tests. If the strip turns blue, you have a soul. Strip turns yellow: no soul.

It should be quite obvious that Mordin, being the scientist that he is, uses the term "soul" as a metaphor, just as he seems to be fond of referencing all sorts of mythology.
Collectors do not have a culture. They are static beings, frozen in time - and in that sense, "soulless".

Given that they've been born as thralls to the Reapers, I find it extremely unlikely that they could "awaken", even if the Reapers' control was lifted. There's nothing to wake, as no individual personality could develop under the conditions they were placed in.
It's like opening the cage of an animal that was born in captivity, and taught not to leave the boundaries of its enclosure. Even if you removed the bars, it'd stay inside, knowing nothing else.

^^ This in a hatbox says it all

Exactly, his use of soul is as an all encompassing term to explain everything that was used to make a person, a person.  Soul, as in all the learning and maybe sacrifice and adversity it took to be able to write great music.  Soul, as in all the leaps the brain and heart may take to overcome a problem.  Soul isn't used as something Mordin means to imply the existence of God within us, but it merely is used as a device that substitutes for all that we can become based upon our heart and our will and our struggles and love.  Sterile cold tech that exists without that has no "soul".

And this is certainly the case.  Feral animals that become pets never outgrow that feral attitude.  And then there's the question of the Leviathans controlling them-great news, eh?  The morons now can control a Collector.  Wow, that's good use of their special talent.  And Levi is now an ally, really?  How about they fix their broken program?

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 février 2013 - 02:20 .

[NeonFlux117]

phillip100 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Again, BioWare want's to ignore ME2. But who really cares.

How does the Awakened Collector or even the Collectors returning in MP ignore ME2? I thought it was made clear in ME3 that there were still Collectors around in Palaven.

Modin's convo in ME2. There is no hope for the collectors. They're husks and have nothing. Everyhting replaced by tech. 

[ElSuperGecko]

Javik was the Prothean's Avatar of Vengeance if I recall correctly.

Maybe Javik is trolling everyone by wearing a suit of Collector armour?

[ElSuperGecko]

phillip100 wrote...

Again, BioWare want's to ignore ME2. But who really cares.

How does the Awakened Collector or even the Collectors returning in MP ignore ME2? I thought it was made clear in ME3 that there were still Collectors around in Palaven.

Yep.  One destroyed Collector ship and one destroyed Collector base does not equal an entire species being wiped out.

The Protheans were a vast, galaxy-wide empire.  There's plenty more Collector Black Arks to go around.  The majority of which were hanging around dormant in Dark Space with Harbinger.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 26 février 2013 - 02:32 .

[Wayning_Star]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

phillip100 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Again, BioWare want's to ignore ME2. But who really cares.

How does the Awakened Collector or even the Collectors returning in MP ignore ME2? I thought it was made clear in ME3 that there were still Collectors around in Palaven.

Modin's convo in ME2. There is no hope for the collectors. They're husks and have nothing. Everyhting replaced by tech. 

well, it's not an exact science, being organic can be suprising,even Mordin can be..er.. wrong on occasion..lol

this time I'm afraid he missed a memo..

[phillip100]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

phillip100 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Again, BioWare want's to ignore ME2. But who really cares.

How does the Awakened Collector or even the Collectors returning in MP ignore ME2? I thought it was made clear in ME3 that there were still Collectors around in Palaven.

Yep.  One destroyed Collector ship and one destroyed Collector base does not equal an entire species being wiped out.

The Protheans were a vast, galaxy-wide empire.  There's plenty more Collector Black Arks to go around.  The majority of which were hanging around dormant in Dark Space with Harbinger.

Fixed the quote box for you and I agree with what you said.

Modifié par phillip100, 26 février 2013 - 02:30 .

[Obadiah]

Paul Greyson was trapped in his body as it was huskified in Retribution.

The captured Salarian STG team in ME1 that was being indoctrinated still seemed to be in there somewhere, just slowly going crazy.

The husks in the Synthesis EC ending that stop attacking appear to be woken up.

Could be the Husks and Collectors can be freed by Levi.

Modifié par Obadiah, 26 février 2013 - 02:35 .

[Wayning_Star]

[quote]ElSuperGecko wrote...

[quote]phillip100 wrote...
Again, BioWare want's to ignore ME2. But who really cares. [/quote]How does the Awakened Collector or even the Collectors returning in MP ignore ME2? I thought it was made clear in ME3 that there were still Collectors around in Palaven.[/quote]

Yep.  One destroyed Collector ship and one destroyed Collector base does not equal an entire species being wiped out.

The Protheans were a vast, galaxy-wide empire.  There's plenty more Collector Black Arks to go around.  The majority of which were hanging around dormant in Dark Space with Harbinger.
[/quote]

bound to be one that didn't 'take' to indoctrination as much as first thought... Life cannot be controlled?

[spirosz]

Why are we using MP as an example of lore?