341 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Mordin making a mistake regarding ethics is JUST A LITTLE bit different than making a mistake regarding something physically missing a brain or the capacity to freely think.

He never said the brian was gone, Just free will

"Mental compacity almost gone replaced by overworked sensory input transfer transmitting data to masters."
No art, no culture, no thought outside of serving the Reapers.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Yeah, these same brain dead organics that couldn't or decided not to control their own idiotic AI.

That would defeat the entire purpose of said AI.

They needed a solution that they clearly couldn't find themselves.

Creating an AI to solve that problem, but controlling the AI, would be self-defeating.

Again, how about they actually work to control him, or help the galaxy do that, instead of trying to control a Collector?  What a real win, whoopie, this apex race can control a Collector.  Amazing.  And yes, this is just MP and I don't look for lore relevance there.  But, again this has a rather sobering effect on my belief in those that seem set to carry Mass Effect forward as a team.

My simple explanations exist if you use your head. They, for one, may not even know the catalyst's true whereabouts. Leviathan certainly didn't indicate as much from our conversation with it. Maybe they do know and tried to take control once previously, but failed (because it's grown advanced).

[Kabooooom]

Lore break. No way around it, it would make more sense if it was under Leviathan control

[grey_wind]

I wouldn't mind if the Collectors had some semblance of animalistic thoughts and instincts once freed that the Alliance could exploit to condition them to fight for our side.

But the idea that they are fighting for the memory of the Protheans is absolutely ridiculous.

[Kabooooom]

Just headcanon that they are Leviathan thralls. Also, it'd be great if the people who made dlc content actually were familiar with the lore of their own games. Although I guess this came from the multiplayer team so...no surprise there.

[Enhanced]

It doesn't matter that the Collectors are braindead drones. Some memories are stored in DNA. The Protheans proved that memories and experiences can be extracted from almost anything. Since the Leviathans are much more advanced than Protheans, it not far-fetched that they can do the same. They can also implant memories. The lore was not broken.

Modifié par Enhanced, 26 février 2013 - 07:34 .

[SyK18]

This makes a lot of sense. The majority of the MP wanted to play as Javik, aka a Prothean. However, Bioware made it so that there is only one Prothean alive in the MEU. The next best thing is a Collector, but not any Collector, no no no, then there would be chaos for that.

So they made up the Awakened Collector, who knows every thing about what happened to his species and now fights for the Galactic Alliance and against his former indoctrinated people. Bioware you amazing genius, pulling **** out of your ass and giving it a nice silver polish.

BTW Joker's prolly got a boner nonstop, with EDI running around.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

I really don't see how this is a problem. The collector general clearly possesed some form of self-awareness, there's no reason not to assume the same isn't true for others. Though the "avatar of vengeance" part is a bit too much imo.

[TCGodzilla]

ZacTB wrote...

Only problem I have is that you can play as an Awakened Collector against Collectors, doesn't make sense as the info said whilst most Collector's died, the rest were awakened or something like that. I can just head canon that Leviathan only targeted one group of Collector's whilst the Reapers had another group of them who became enemies in multiplayer. Also like how you can play as a Geth against Geth, I just thought that the ones you fight are heretics and if you are in a team with Quarians then you are just a friendly one, like Legion and the Geth Primes who join your side before Rannoch in the Consensus side quest.  

I don't know why this matters so much to me lol.

The way I took it was the Collector forces that met the Leviathans end up killing each other or somehow died when disconnected from the Reapers thus a few survived. That doesn't mean the majority of Collectors died; just the majority that met the Leviathans. 

[Jadebaby]

Shepard: "Is there anything we can do to help them?"

Mordin: "No! No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech.... No soul, replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever... Understand now? No art, no culture. Closer to husks than slaves. Tools for Reapers, Protheans dead, Collectors just final insult. *Inhale* Must be destroyed.

[humes spork]

Unschuld wrote...

I'm pretty sure I know what I typed, I'm just not sure about the logic behind it. How do the collectors regain their sense of self (pre-indoctrinated protheans) after being enslaved for 50,000 years (genetically modified husks with organs/"soul"/etc replaced by tech) get FREED by be being enthralled.

Yeah, how does something get freed by being enthralled?

Might be a good question to ask if the background said anything about them actually being free.

[geceka]

Jadebaby wrote...

Shepard: "Is there anything we can do to help them?"

Mordin: "No! No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech.... No soul, replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever... Understand now? No art, no culture. Closer to husks than slaves. Tools for Reapers, Protheans dead, Collectors just final insult. *Inhale* Must be destroyed.

Nothing really in the "Awakened Collector"'s backstory really contradicts this – After all, it's not as if it is a full-fledged Prothean that recovered from being a Collector.

If anything, think of these Collectors like this: While the vast majority of Collectors simply died when their link to Harbinger was severed, there were just a handful of Collectors originally twisted from powerful Prothean biotics, who – much like Benezia in ME1 – managed to retain a small glimpse of their former self locked away from the Reapers' influence. Freed from the Reapers, they realize that they are no longer Prothean, their legacy lost forever, their bodies probably slowly failing, lacking the maintenance through Reaper nanites and whatnot that kept them alive for thousands of years. Knowing that their former self is gone forever, cannot ever be recovered, them being more machine than Prothean now. The only reason for them to exist becomes fighting those that did this to them, one last act of defiance before they are gone forever. The Collector kit is probably the most tragic one in MP, considering how all the others probably have something to fight for.

Anyway, of course it's not something we all saw coming, but it's also not really "breaking" the lore or retconning anything. It's just a believable in-universe justification for having a Collector kit in MP – These Collectors are not Prothean. People have been asking for Protheans (or Collectors) in MP for a while now, and this is probably the most in-universe, not-retconning way to get such a character in. After all, if we got full-fledged Protheans, it would become hard to "get rid" of them again in the game universe. With these Collectors, this has already been dealt with in ME2: They can't reproduce, they are irrecoverably doomed already. 

[Jadebaby]

geceka wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

Shepard: "Is there anything we can do to help them?"

Mordin: "No! No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech.... No soul, replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever... Understand now? No art, no culture. Closer to husks than slaves. Tools for Reapers, Protheans dead, Collectors just final insult. *Inhale* Must be destroyed.

Nothing really in the "Awakened Collector"'s backstory really contradicts this – After all, it's not as if it is a full-fledged Prothean that recovered from being a Collector.

If anything, think of these Collectors like this: While the vast majority of Collectors simply died when their link to Harbinger was severed, there were just a handful of Collectors originally twisted from powerful Prothean biotics, who – much like Benezia in ME1 – managed to retain a small glimpse of their former self locked away from the Reapers' influence.

Stopped reading here. No, no, no, no, no, no, no..... That's not possible. Comparing a guddamn Collector to Benezia is just flawed on soooo many different levels. Let me ask you something. And this is completely hypothetical as it's probably not possible either. If a husk's nanobytes stopped working and it lost it's link to the Reapers. Do you think it'd go and join the N7 program?
 

The Collector kit is probably the most tragic one in MP, considering how all the others probably have something to fight for.

Okay, I didn't stop reading. But you are right, it is the most tragic kit. But not because of it's backstory. It's because BioWare wanted to feed all those "we want playable Prothean" tools that didn't care about the lore and just wanted to shoot stuff over and over... and over again. First we got the Volus which bent the lore, but they think that adding an Awakened Collector is smart because it simply bends the lore instead of just adding a Prothean? Well they should have just added a Prothean and in the character description said "we found another one."

Anyway, of course it's not something we all saw coming, but it's also not really "breaking" the lore or retconning anything. It's just a believable in-universe justification for having a Collector kit in MP – These Collectors are not Prothean. People have been asking for Protheans (or Collectors) in MP for a while now, and this is probably the most in-universe, not-retconning way to get such a character in. After all, if we got full-fledged Protheans, it would become hard to "get rid" of them again in the game universe. With these Collectors, this has already been dealt with in ME2: They can't reproduce, they are irrecoverably doomed already. 

It's breaking. There is no possible way the Collectors could retain any sense of themselves without "space magic."

What's even worse than this, is that for the Collector kit to realistically join the MP team, it has to be able to communicate with other squadmates... Just wow... I'm really looking forward to having a good laugh at the character's description, to say the least. It's funny what people do for money.

Modifié par Jadebaby, 26 février 2013 - 08:56 .

[humes spork]

Jadebaby wrote...

It's breaking. There is no possible way the Collectors could retain any sense of themselves without "space magic."

Nothing in the description implies they have a sense of themselves, or free will. I'll illustrate by copy-pasting something I posted in the other thread:

When the Reapers fought the Protheans, the former severed the latter's connection to their fellow Protheans through indoctrination, genetic manipulation, and implantation. Most Prothean forces died as a result, but a few survived. Now, these rare individuals fight to ascend future organic species.
Protheans appointed avatars to embody and model a single virtue for their society. The Collectors' virtue is salvation.

Sounds great, huh? The Collectors must be so free and happy, what with all that free will and happiness and self-awareness that description must imply.

What's even worse than this, is that for the Collector kit to realistically join the MP team, it has to be able to communicate with other squadmates... Just wow... I'm really looking forward to having a good laugh at the character's description, to say the least. It's funny what people do for money.

They must have some built-in capability to vocalize, otherwise Harbinger wouldn't be able to BLAH BLAH BLAH nonstop in the middle of combat when it assumes direct control.

[Reap_ii]

that explanation doesnt remove the odd feeling i get when imagining playing as a collector that now fights against the reapers. does not compute. with what we already know about the collectors, all this just CANT be possible.

[Jenonax]

I apologise if this has been brought up before but having just finished Mass Effect 1, Vigil says something I think quite relevant.

He describes the husks left over after the Reapers retreated back through the Citadel relay. Assuming that the Reapers asleep in dark space and have thus relinquished control over the husks, same with Sovereign having gone into hibernation as well, why have the remaining husks not awoken as well? They were described as souless and merely let themselves starve to death with no direction. Doesn't sound like they have anything resembling a 'soul' left in them to me.

[Vored]

I knew it all along. Bioware made the enemy of the older game a good guy again! First it was Legion, with the Geth as the main antagonists in ME1, and then a playable Collector who were the main antagonists in ME2.

I like the idea, however. Maybe weird and not fitting the lore 100%, but still nice... this also helps to look at Synthesis on a different view: Maybe all those leftover husks don't have to just die; maybe they can think again.

I'm very interested if those Collectors play a role in the upcoming SP DLC; if so, I and probably many more, would like to see Javik's reaction. Unity with his people? Would match the concept.

[TCGodzilla]

Jenonax wrote...

I apologise if this has been brought up before but having just finished Mass Effect 1, Vigil says something I think quite relevant.

He describes the husks left over after the Reapers retreated back through the Citadel relay. Assuming that the Reapers asleep in dark space and have thus relinquished control over the husks, same with Sovereign having gone into hibernation as well, why have the remaining husks not awoken as well? They were described as souless and merely let themselves starve to death with no direction. Doesn't sound like they have anything resembling a 'soul' left in them to me.

I believed he was referring to the indoctrinated slaves; not the husks.

[Tootles FTW]

It's multiplayer. I have a hard time getting my panties in a bunch over the plot.

[Jenonax]

TCGodzilla wrote...

Jenonax wrote...

I apologise if this has been brought up before but having just finished Mass Effect 1, Vigil says something I think quite relevant.

He describes the husks left over after the Reapers retreated back through the Citadel relay. Assuming that the Reapers asleep in dark space and have thus relinquished control over the husks, same with Sovereign having gone into hibernation as well, why have the remaining husks not awoken as well? They were described as souless and merely let themselves starve to death with no direction. Doesn't sound like they have anything resembling a 'soul' left in them to me.

I believed he was referring to the indoctrinated slaves; not the husks.

Is there a difference?  

Physically of course there is but indoctrination comes from the tech inplants as well as the influence of and contact with a Reaper.  The husks have to be indoctrinated as well purely from having so much Reaper tech inside them.

[geceka]

Jadebaby wrote...

Comparing a guddamn Collector to Benezia is just flawed on soooo many different levels. Let me ask you something. And this is completely hypothetical as it's probably not possible either.

But why? Benezia is a powerful biotic and somewhat of a mystic. Protheans are powerful biotics and somewhat mystic (touching a wall lets Javik learn things about people?). It's really not that far-fetched that the way to retain a bit of personality through indoctrination is possible for Protheans/Collectors as well.

Jadebaby wrote...

If a husk's nanobytes stopped working and it lost it's link to the Reapers. Do you think it'd go and join the N7 program?

No, but the MP Collector isn't just a normal footsoldier Collector either, it's obviously special, both in its description and the unique powers it has.

Jadebaby wrote...

First we got the Volus which bent the lore

Why, the lore only says that Volus aren't all that well-suited to be soldiers/warriors, but not that there aren't even a few among the billions of Volus individuals who did not – against all odds – decide to become mercenaries (or whatever). I don't want all the races to be walking stereotypes – Not every Asari is a powerful biotic, not every Drell is a well-trained assassin, not every Volus is a cowardly banker.

Jadebaby wrote...

but they think that adding an Awakened Collector is smart because it simply bends the lore instead of just adding a Prothean? Well they should have just added a Prothean and in the character description said "we found another one."

Jadebaby wrote...

What's even worse than this, is that for the Collector kit to realistically join the MP team, it has to be able to communicate with other squadmates...

Well, yeah, this is not something that is explained in these few lines. Could just as well be that they could only relay their intent to fight the Reapers through a Leviathan or a brave Asari who does their mind-thingie with them. If it concerns you a lot, you can still role-play the MP Collector by never joining in on any objective and never reviving teammates, because they don't understand ;-)

Then again, people have been doing trade and whatnot with Collectors before, so I wouldn't rule out they can communicate without Reaper intervention.

Modifié par geceka, 26 février 2013 - 09:12 .

[humes spork]

Tootles FTW wrote...

It's multiplayer. I have a hard time getting my panties in a bunch over the plot.

There is also this. I doubt it would be a tenth the issue it now seems to be if it weren't also for oodles of fools out there looking for any excuse to hate the game. 

[TCGodzilla]

Jenonax wrote...

TCGodzilla wrote...

Jenonax wrote...

I apologise if this has been brought up before but having just finished Mass Effect 1, Vigil says something I think quite relevant.

He describes the husks left over after the Reapers retreated back through the Citadel relay. Assuming that the Reapers asleep in dark space and have thus relinquished control over the husks, same with Sovereign having gone into hibernation as well, why have the remaining husks not awoken as well? They were described as souless and merely let themselves starve to death with no direction. Doesn't sound like they have anything resembling a 'soul' left in them to me.

I believed he was referring to the indoctrinated slaves; not the husks.

Is there a difference?  

Physically of course there is but indoctrination comes from the tech inplants as well as the influence of and contact with a Reaper.  The husks have to be indoctrinated as well purely from having so much Reaper tech inside them.

Yes there is a difference. He was referring to slaves like Saren during the conversation. He doesn't mention anything of husks. But I gotta say nice catch on a technicality.

[Seival]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

 Here's the story behind the Collector in MP. Haven't played Leviathan so don't know much about this. 

Background:

When the Reaper-killer known as Leviathan fought the Collectors, it severed their connection to Harbringer with a thrall device. Most Collector forces died as a result, but a few survived. Now, these rare individuals fight for the memory of their people, a proud race broken by the Reapers.
Protheans appointed avatars to embody and model a single virtue for their society. The Awakened Collectors' virtue is vengeance.

You should have played Leviathan DLC before creating such thread 

Playable Collectors can mean only one thing. Those Collectors are Leviathans' thralls.

Modifié par Seival, 26 février 2013 - 09:21 .