142 réponses à ce sujet

[SpunkyMonkey]

After touching on the debate in a few other threads, and with The Witcher series being so talked about of late, I thought it'd be interesting to see how much reality everyone likes in their fantasy games?

I personally like a realistic foundation, with fantasy elements built on top of that. The Witcher series does it great for me (even though I think the games themselves as a whole fall short of their potential) and one of the things which I loved about DA:O was that it still had a "grounded" feel to it too, even though it danced with totally outlandish flights of fantasy.

DA:2 was a step too far towards fantasy for me - it was starting to teeter on a JRPG and even though I like JRPGs it's not what I expect from a WRPG. There were barely any characters which were had any grit to them, and the whole tilt towards Anime felt very out of place, and very weak. It was even more strange that DA:2 focussed on less of a "save the world" plot, and more of a "survive in the city" plot despite the vibe being set totally opposite to that (seriously BW, someone in-house needs a proper slap for not covering such a basic lol. It's like saying "we're gonna record a killer hard rock album, turn everything down to 1 and add a harp playing through every song. ")

So does it matter to you? Do you want to feel like you're in a middle aged England but one which has magic and demons? Or could you not care less and accept 10 stone elves weilding two-handed swords bigger than they are?

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 26 février 2013 - 01:36 .

[Icinix]

Realism, I'm not to fussed.

Believability though - thats important.

As for two handed swords bigger than they are - as a gamer I have long since learned to accept certain art concessions for the sake of the game.

From a top down view point with side on characters and items in early games - to coloured lights and patterns to show force powers in KOTOR.

Dragon Age 2 went a bit too far with that - DAO I didn't really notice it - so I think its more about just not going too far.

[ejoslin]

I agree with you in some ways, though the size of the character and their weapon doesn't bother me. In fact, I would be annoyed if women could not be capable warriors. But I did like the characters in DAO -- the reactions to the situation just felt realistic. When you can understand and relate to the motives of various characters, when the actions of people are not brought on by supernatural forces, it just seems more realistic and therefore, more immersive.

Comparing Loghain/Howe and Meredith for a moment here -- Loghain was a great antagonist whereas Meredith made me roll my eyes. Howe was terrific as well; he was a slimebag but I could understand his motivations and hate him all the more for it. Loghain, while flawed, acted with good intentions with disastrous results. Meredith, instead of being a complex antagonist, ended up having a cheap plot device which made her evil, and that took away a lot from the story for me.

I like fantasy. I loved in DAO that people reacted as you would expect to an evil that was invading their land. You had denial, power grabs, people taking advantage of the instability, and a final coming together because that had to happen to have a land to save. In DA2, I never really had that feeling. It could have been good -- there were some terrific ideas there.

[mickey111]

Lots of nuditiy, sexism, oppression of minorities, exploitation of the common masses for the benefit of the few etc are all requirements if you want an authentic medieval setting. And this type of **** goes on in the world quite regularly even now. There is no room for Hollywood PC, and the Hollywood is strong with Bioware.

Modifié par mickey111, 26 février 2013 - 01:23 .

[Robhuzz]

Make it at least partially believable. I know it's difficult with concepts like spirits, demons, magic and dragons but that's what we have lore and a healthy dose of imagination for. Establish what is and is not possible early on and don't cross that line. Sadly DA2 preferred to ignore lore as much as possible. I hope they don't do that again for the next game.

As for combat and such, make it mostly realistic. It can be very flashy without losing it's realism (see The Witcher 2 combat - All those moves were flashy but actually performed by a master swordsman, not just made up). Man sized swords, jumping 2 meters into the air with a huge sword in your hands, scything through entire groups of enemies and enemies exploding when you hit them with a dagger though... no.

In short: Flashy: good. Over the top: bad.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 26 février 2013 - 01:24 .

[Biotic Sage]

The story has to be driven by relatable characters with true agency. That's about all that's required as long as the fantasy world sticks to an established rule set for the "magic," however fantastical.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 26 février 2013 - 01:23 .

[Nerevar-as]

For me it´s not so much a matter of realism as of internal coherence. The setting must have some rules, and it must follow them. ME1 was a good example, most of the SF was built around element zero and its properties, and lore and gameplay followed them. That helped immersion a lot.

[Biotic Sage]

Nerevar-as wrote...

For me it´s not so much a matter of realism as of internal coherence. The setting must have some rules, and it must follow them. ME1 was a good example, most of the SF was built around element zero and its properties, and lore and gameplay followed them. That helped immersion a lot.

Too bad the Michael-Bay-"Wow-Factor" trumped the importance of internal coherence for the devs in the later entries in way too many instances...

[SpunkyMonkey]

Some interesting views, thanks chaps, keep them coming.

Robhuzz wrote...

Make it at least partially believable. I know it's difficult with concepts like spirits, demons, magic and dragons but that's what we have lore and a healthy dose of imagination for. Establish what is and is not possible early on and don't cross that line. Sadly DA2 preferred to ignore lore as much as possible. I hope they don't do that again for the next game.

As for combat and such, make it mostly realistic. It can be very flashy without losing it's realism (see The Witcher 2 combat - All those moves were flashy but actually performed by a master swordsman, not just made up). Man sized swords, jumping 2 meters into the air with a huge sword in your hands, scything through entire groups of enemies and enemies exploding when you hit them with a dagger though... no.

In short: Flashy: good. Over the top: bad.

Great point with how flashy doesn't have to mean OTT. I cringed every time I saw the DA:2 rogue spin-kick a potion towards an enemy *facepalm*

Biotic Sage wrote..

Too bad the Michael-Bay-"Wow-Factor" trumped the
importance of internal coherence for the devs in the later entries in
way too many instances...

Yep. Anything that is remotely Michael Bay-ish is on a bad path IMO.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 26 février 2013 - 01:32 .

[Nerevar-as]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

For me it´s not so much a matter of realism as of internal coherence. The setting must have some rules, and it must follow them. ME1 was a good example, most of the SF was built around element zero and its properties, and lore and gameplay followed them. That helped immersion a lot.

Too bad the Michael-Bay-"Wow-Factor" trumped the importance of internal coherence for the devs in the later entries in way too many instances...

Yeah... tried to do a trilogy playthrough short ago. Abandoned before Horizon. Although with ME2, what kept me away was the knowledge it was almost pointless to the main plot, they made a trilogy for the sake of it, not because they needed 3 games. Everybody fighting in heir civvies was a big immersion breaker too.

Back to DA, Origins was quite down to earth, but from Awakening onwards... rogues became full ninjas (they even had the decoy trick), and DA2 went all the way. they even had teleporting mages, something impossible according to lore. And no, invisible mage who quickly runs to other point of scenario and decloaks doesn´t cut it.

[Darth Death]

Replying strictly to the title, enough where my suspension of disbelief isn't broken. As long as a story follows its own rules & laws from a structural storytelling perspective, & doesn't abruptly brake them (with no foreshadow applied) for no direct purpose, other than an "awe" moment or plot twist.

[Masha Potato]

13,5

[horacethegrey]

My issue with realism in Dragon Age is with the weapon designs. The designs for the swords and axes are some of most outlandish I've seen, and really stretch my suspension of disbelief. Really hope they rethink the designs in DA3.

As for the rest, I've no real complaints. The world of Dragon Age is a very believable fantasy world for me, as opposed to say, The Forgotten Realms.

[Nerevar-as]

horacethegrey wrote...

My issue with realism in Dragon Age is with the weapon designs. The designs for the swords and axes are some of most outlandish I've seen, and really stretch my suspension of disbelief. Really hope they rethink the designs in DA3.

As for the rest, I've no real complaints. The world of Dragon Age is a very believable fantasy world for me, as opposed to say, The Forgotten Realms.

I´ve been out of touch with FR, but DA is no more believable than BG or NWN.

[Atchas]

I find most things ok if you can justify it for me lore wise (stretching the "world" rules is ok)

breaking all realistic boundries are not.

there is no way you can stab someone thet woulld cause then to explode

[NorwegianPirate]

Whatever fits for the world they've created. I felt like Dragon Age 2 attempted to portray a sort of grittiness that wasn't really reflected in the artstyle and combat animation - the former I felt was too clean and stylized, while the latter was a bit too fantastical. Though I have to give them credit for making two-handed swordswoman and archer fun classes to play.

Modifié par NorwegianPirate, 26 février 2013 - 01:54 .

[Xilizhra]

However much is necessary to make it fun. I actually found DA2 combat enjoyable, something that I frequently could say less about DAO's. If there's a way to make combat swift and visually interesting in a different style, then fine, but as it is, I kind of enjoy it.

[Dutchess]

I want a fantasy world that is believable, realistic and follows its own rules. DA2 really messed up on that. Codex entry says mages can't teleport, yet you have enemy mages disappearing and a second later reappearing on the other side of the room. Fighting and combat is important in DA, so I expect armor and weapon designs that are realistically useful for battle, so no random spikes and blades as long as the warrior who wields it. Blood magic is supposed to be rare, yet you can't turn around a corner in Kirkwall without bumping into one. Hawke is a mage, and all templars are blind and deaf to it.

[SpunkyMonkey]

renjility wrote...

I want a fantasy world that is believable, realistic and follows its own rules. DA2 really messed up on that. Codex entry says mages can't teleport, yet you have enemy mages disappearing and a second later reappearing on the other side of the room. Fighting and combat is important in DA, so I expect armor and weapon designs that are realistically useful for battle, so no random spikes and blades as long as the warrior who wields it. Blood magic is supposed to be rare, yet you can't turn around a corner in Kirkwall without bumping into one. Hawke is a mage, and all templars are blind and deaf to it.

That's a great call regards armour. Even if it wouldn't be totally practical at least it can appear practical, as opoosed to something which screams "this serves no puropse, but looks cool"

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 26 février 2013 - 02:08 .

[JCAP]

I would prefer that they adopt more realistic styles (like Witcher) in DA:I.
I really didn't like the way DA:2 turned out. WRPG with JRPG elements? No thanks...

I like JRPG's, but I really think that Dragon Age shouldn't go that way, because Thedas is based on many european countries (Ferelden--England, Orlais--France, Antiva--Italy (although, Zevran and Vincento have spanish accent), Rivain--Spain, Tevinter--Roman Empire, Anderfels--Holy Roman Empire), and european style focusses on more realistic or dark styles.

(I'm looking at you Fenris:ph34r:, Final Fantasy character...)

[Iakus]

 I like Magic A is Magic A where what fantastical elements can and cannot do are clearly outlined (teleortation is impossible, you cannot raise the dead, etc) and are not violated without a really good in-universe reason.

As for the Witcher, well, let's say I prefer "fade to black"  My problem with that series is the foul language and nudity passed beyond my personal event horizon for "fun" and crossed over into "gratuitous"  I recognise this is personal taste, and can still appreciate them for well-crafted games.  So in that sense, I prefer more fantasty and less realism.

[Blazomancer]

I think I prefer believability over realism; there will always be something in a video game to which we can point and say - 'look, that's not realistic'. As long as the plot makes sense from previously established lore, I can look past unrealistic aspects. Although I'll admit a little bit of less breaking down of laws of physics for rogues and warriors in-combat would be much appreciated; or at least first define what gravity is like in Thedas and then, I'd not be bothered with everybody bunny hopping around me.

I don't have any objection to the plots of both the games; seemed believable enough to me. Also, I wouldn't be bothered by '10 stone elves weilding two-handed swords bigger than they are'. I've finally come to terms to the fact that gameplay will have to make allotments for a liitle bit of unrealism. Come on, I'm knocked out by a dragon, my teammates finish the battle and bring me back from the dead, and all I get is a lousy injury - that's unrealistic, and that's okay, as far as I'm concerned.

[Medhia Nox]

To me - "realism" doesn't necessarily mean "low magic".

Iakus states it pretty clearly - if magic is defined very well and not broken for story flash - I feel this is "realism".

That being said - the more realism the better for me.

UNLESS - you are going fairy tale (Oz, Wonderland, Neverland, etc.)

---

@Blazomancer: I played Lord of the Rings online - and I absolutely loved what they did with combat. When you were defeated - you actually just retreated from combat instead of "dying".

While I can ignore the lunacy of dying in these games - I respond better to something that seems more consistent with reality.

[SpunkyMonkey]

iakus wrote...

 I like Magic A is Magic A where what fantastical elements can and cannot do are clearly outlined (teleortation is impossible, you cannot raise the dead, etc) and are not violated without a really good in-universe reason.

As for the Witcher, well, let's say I prefer "fade to black"  My problem with that series is the foul language and nudity passed beyond my personal event horizon for "fun" and crossed over into "gratuitous"  I recognise this is personal taste, and can still appreciate them for well-crafted games.  So in that sense, I prefer more fantasty and less realism.

I did find it odd how bad language was used as often by Kings, nobility and suchlike as it was the working class folk. They definitely over-egged it slightly and - whereas I could buy into that language being common place in inns, ****houses, barracks and army camps etc. - it felt a bit out of place in certain other conversations.

More the exception than the rule though that's for sure.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 26 février 2013 - 02:54 .

[Blazomancer]

Medhia Nox wrote...
 I played Lord of the Rings online - and I absolutely loved what they did with combat. When you were defeated - you actually just retreated from combat instead of "dying".

While I can ignore the lunacy of dying in these games - I respond better to something that seems more consistent with reality.

That's fair enough. I would be interested to see such mechanics being introduced.