142 réponses à ce sujet

[Lennard Testarossa]

shootist70 wrote...
Tbh, those things should go without saying - they apply to anybody who ever wrote a story.

But more often than not, consistency is ignored when it comes to fantasy. I can't count how many times I've read "It has dragons, therefore it can do whatever it wants and no asprect of it should ever be called into question!" on this forum.

[duckley]

Interesting question ... how much reality can be suspended in a fantasy game without eye rolling?

For me, it is usually the small things that irk.  I  have no problem with two Wardens and a few rag tag companions  saving Ferelden from the Blight and all that entailed, but was really irked by Alistair's apparent plastic surgery in his DA2 cameo... really? How did that happen????? Silly isn't it!

[NorwegianPirate]

SerTabris wrote...

I very much don't want to see instances of sexism/racism/etc. thrown in to make it more "realistic". I think this goes into the broader framework of internal consistency, rather than similarity to our world - it's not like there's some sort of innate requirement that a world with a medieval technology level has to have worse sexism than our world does, or any such thing. There are plenty of other sources for conflict that don't play in to the same cultural problems and expectations that can be seen everywhere else.

Yes, I'd have to agree with that. I hesitate to say this, but straight, white men are actually quite privileged not to have a history of oppression that targeted them specifically for being straight, white men, as far as european history goes at least. It's kind of easy to ask for more explicit oppression of <insert oppressed group here> when you're not part of the group that is always being oppressed.

Modifié par NorwegianPirate, 27 février 2013 - 12:40 .

[Fast Jimmy]

duckley wrote...

Interesting question ... how much reality can be suspended in a fantasy game without eye rolling?

For me, it is usually the small things that irk.  I  have no problem with two Wardens and a few rag tag companions  saving Ferelden from the Blight and all that entailed, but was really irked by Alistair's apparent plastic surgery in his DA2 cameo... really? How did that happen????? Silly isn't it!

I don't require that a game follow any type of parallel with our world... but it should always follow the rules it outlines in its own world, either stated or implied.

If a character in the game like Zevran tells us that someone can fall out of a carriage and snap their neck, we understand that bone density, muscle tenstility and overall human frailty would prevent someone from doing a backflip 20 feet in the air. Similarly, if a game tells us that exposure to lyrium is dangerous to the point of near death to touch, don't have us ingest countless amounts of the stuff on a regular basis.

Its all a matter of consistency. Saying dragons exist in an imaginary world is fine. To say dragons can talk and sing dirty limericks without an explanation of why this hasn't been seen or discussed by the many experiences seen not only by the player in game, but also by the recounted experience of other characters or the lore is a violation of what we' e already been told in a pretty obvious and annoying way, at least to me. 

[Lennard Testarossa]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
If a character in the game like Zevran tells us that someone can fall out of a carriage and snap their neck, we understand that bone density, muscle tenstility and overall human frailty would prevent someone from doing a backflip 20 feet in the air.

Only if you assume that all humans are as similar as they are in our world. We have many reasons to assume this is not the case. It seems to be very possible to achieve super human strength and agility.

[Twisted Path]

When I first tried to read the Lord of the Rings books I lost interest because I could never tell what was *actually* happening behind all the flowery, biblical-sounding prose. Later I started reading Fritz Leiber's stories and loved them, one of the big reasons being that he was an amateur fencer and described sword fight scenes in vivid detail.

So believability is very important to me. I would much much rather read about dodges and parries then about someone being "mightily smoted." That's one of the big reasons I hated Dragon Age 2's ridiculous anime-style fighting moves.

And of course I'm also a big fan of Brandon Sanderson's ideas about how magic should be handled in a fantasy setting. There has to be internal consistency or things just get silly.

[HiroVoid]

None. I want to ride a unicorn right through the ground into the parallel dimension where a giant space worm exists holding the three headed troll princess hostage.

[The Hierophant]

HiroVoid wrote...

None. I want to ride a unicorn right through the ground into the parallel dimension where a giant space worm exists holding the three headed troll princess hostage.

Switch the three headed troll princess with Andraste, then the giant space worm with the Maker, and you've probably got the climax for the final DA game.

[Fast Jimmy]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
If a character in the game like Zevran tells us that someone can fall out of a carriage and snap their neck, we understand that bone density, muscle tenstility and overall human frailty would prevent someone from doing a backflip 20 feet in the air.

Only if you assume that all humans are as similar as they are in our world. We have many reasons to assume this is not the case. It seems to be very possible to achieve super human strength and agility.

What about anything in DA:O made it seem like super human strength or agility was possible? Wearing armor cost extra fatigue, instead if being feather weight.  Zevran trapped you by cutting down a tree to block your escape... something that could easily be jumped over by the anime ninjas we saw in DA2. The duel between Loghain and the Warden did not involve thundering crashes or insane jumps... it was a one-on-one fight that was based in the reality the game had presented us - even if that reality allowed raining fire down from the sky or healing wounds with magic. 

As ridiculous as the Meredith fight was, it was still at least somewhat explainable by "crazy lyrium." To some degree, at least. Having non-magical characters like Tallis jump over walls three times taller than her is not magic, but a violations of lots of evidence the game had supplied to the contrary. 

[Xilizhra]

If a character in the game like Zevran tells us that someone can fall out of a carriage and snap their neck, we understand that bone density, muscle tenstility and overall human frailty would prevent someone from doing a backflip 20 feet in the air. Similarly, if a game tells us that exposure to lyrium is dangerous to the point of near death to touch, don't have us ingest countless amounts of the stuff on a regular basis.

It's the difference between drinking wine and jet fuel; lyrium potions are prepared in a way that makes them safe to ingest. While I hesitate to end that sentence with "duh," I would have thought it was obvious, especially since templars also consume lyrium lorewise. Also, no one jumps twenty feet into the air; that would be like jumping over two ogres on each other's shoulders (maybe more).

What about anything in DA:O made it seem like super human strength or agility was possible? Wearing armor cost extra fatigue, instead if being feather weight. Zevran trapped you by cutting down a tree to block your escape... something that could easily be jumped over by the anime ninjas we saw in DA2. The duel between Loghain and the Warden did not involve thundering crashes or insane jumps... it was a one-on-one fight that was based in the reality the game had presented us - even if that reality allowed raining fire down from the sky or healing wounds with magic.

DA2 also has insurmountable waist-high fences, it happens in almost every game that I know of.

As ridiculous as the Meredith fight was, it was still at least somewhat explainable by "crazy lyrium." To some degree, at least. Having non-magical characters like Tallis jump over walls three times taller than her is not magic, but a violations of lots of evidence the game had supplied to the contrary.

Did it ever supply that evidence, lorewise, with elves?

[Orian Tabris]

Acceptable reality in fantasy.

Fine line. --------------------------

Unacceptable reality in fantasy.

It's hard to really say how much reality is acceptable, and how much is not. With Dragon Age none of the combat has really been acceptable.

On one hand, you've got massive weapons that are hard to swing quickly, and characters who just stand still, letting enemies run past them, even as they are right next to each other.

On the other hand, you've got massive weapons that are swung effortlessly, sometimes to the point where they are swung twice or thrice in 5 seconds, but the characters react to opponents as soon as they are within range.

There needs to be some sort of happy medium. Massive weapons should be swung faster than in Origins, but slower than in 2, but should also be able to be swung faster, with increased attack speed from a third party effect or from the weapon's inherit ability (and possibly from equipped runes).

[C9316]

Little to none at all, reality kind of sucks for me nowadays.

[Dabrikishaw]

None. It's not something I fuss about.

[Plaintiff]

shootist70 wrote...

This 'internally consistent/suspension-of-disbelief' thing is spreading like a disease.

Tbh, those things should go without saying - they apply to anybody who ever wrote a story.

Well, those are the only things that matter. Regardless of personal taste, fantasy autors are not in any way obligated to to pay homage to what we perceive as reality.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 février 2013 - 06:28 .

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
If a character in the game like Zevran tells us that someone can fall out of a carriage and snap their neck, we understand that bone density, muscle tenstility and overall human frailty would prevent someone from doing a backflip 20 feet in the air.

I don't think that follows. Falling backwards by accident and deliberately doing a backflip at any height in the air are two activities so disparate that there would be a myriad of other concerns to take into account. The factors you've listed paint a very incomplete picture.

It would be like looking at our own world and saying "since humans can slip and fall in the shower, it doesn't make sense that parkour and olympic-level gymnastics exist".

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

This 'internally consistent/suspension-of-disbelief' thing is spreading like a disease.

Tbh, those things should go without saying - they apply to anybody who ever wrote a story.

Well, those are the only things that matter. Regardless of personal taste, fantasy autors are not in any way obligated to to pay homage to what we perceive as reality.

True. But they should follow the rules they themselves have set for their own setting.

[PsychoBlonde]

Depends on the game--consistency is important to me, not "realism" or anything described as such. I like crazy over-the-top stuff when that's what you're doing (and as an OCCASIONAL aside even in serious works it can be fun). I like ultra-"realistic" seriousness when that's what you're doing (although the occasional dash of this in a comedy can make it meaningful instead of just fluff).

Integrate things well is all I ask.

[Jones7602]

I vote for believeability. A fantasy game has no chance of being realistic. As soon as the first monster appears you can forget realism. Instead those games, books, etc. should be believeable which mainly means they should stick to their own rules.

DA2 fails a lot in that department. In DA:O we learned that magic is nasty and dangerous and only done by mages. In DA2 every class has skills that look a lot like magic to me. Enemies exploding from dagger hits (also thats a classic, enemies already exploded in Baldurs Gate), rogues vanishing in the air, warriors throwing around dozens of enemies by sticking their swords into the earth, people running at 300mph over an battlefield in full plate, a crossbow shooting dozens of bolts at once and so on...

At the same time, magic is strangely powerless. A fireball that was quite deadly in DA:O doesn't do much damage, an enemy shock frosted by magic simply returns to battle, lightning bolts only hurt a Little... Maybe physics don't apply in Thedas any more, but as far as I know, fire still burns...

Another examply could be how you defeat enemies. In DA:O enemies didn't have much hit points, but some of them were very hard to hit based on their gear and their combat skills. In DA2 simple human enemies have hitpoints akin to a freakin high Dragon and healing potions on top of that. As far as I remember Dragon Age didn't introduce half-gods as enemies, right?

I hope these things and lot more get corrected in DA:I. Flashy combat? Any day but make skills believeable. Instead of exploding enemies let rogues cut their throat, warriors behead them, enemies hit the eye and so on. Make magic strong enough that we can see it as a danger, if a throw a fireball at a group of human enemies without Special protection I expect most of them to die or least to lie burning on the ground waiting for healing. If they have some fire protection, well show it.

[Fredward]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Define realism. If realism is massive prejudice, discrimination and hate crime you're totally bringing real world standards into the game. Which isn't just wrong, it's stupid.

It's neither wrong or stupid. It's applying common sense to realise that in any game universe outside of utopian setting, such people with such attitudes would exist and such events would happen therefore should be present if done well. If it is not a utopian game setting then such should be present within the context of the societies, cultures and people of that world. To exclude such would be both stupid and wrong as far as I am concerned. Not everyone in that world, not every society, culture, race or region will have such issues but some would; therefore should exist within the game.

It has blow all to do with it being a utopian setting. In Earth's history we had sexism and racism and all that jazz. Working with that frame of reference in mind we'd imagine a "utopia" to not include these things since they are bad. We had these things because of silly things like culture and religion and chest hair. This is OUR reality. Thedas is a completely different world. Their frame of reference is completely different. There is no reason for there to be rampant sexism or homophobia so there isn't. For the simple kinda reasons like their dominant religion never says anything about bangin' someone of the same gender and their religious authority being a fat ass matriarchy. Which might imply that women would be grinding guys under their heels but since guys have chest hair and whatnot it sort of balances out. Oh and also Thedas has its own issues that totally disqualify any kind of "utopia" as in the discrimination that exists towards elves and mages.

Really I'm not sure why I'm even arguing this since discrimination does exist it's just not Earth's discrimination. Clearly I shouldn't post this late at night.

[Uccio]

NorwegianPirate wrote...

SerTabris wrote...

I very much don't want to see instances of sexism/racism/etc. thrown in to make it more "realistic". I think this goes into the broader framework of internal consistency, rather than similarity to our world - it's not like there's some sort of innate requirement that a world with a medieval technology level has to have worse sexism than our world does, or any such thing. There are plenty of other sources for conflict that don't play in to the same cultural problems and expectations that can be seen everywhere else.

Yes, I'd have to agree with that. I hesitate to say this, but straight, white men are actually quite privileged not to have a history of oppression that targeted them specifically for being straight, white men, as far as european history goes at least. It's kind of easy to ask for more explicit oppression of <insert oppressed group here> when you're not part of the group that is always being oppressed.

Funny thing, I enjoyed greatly playing city elf or dwarven casteless just for the sake of experiencing discrimination. The feeling of being talked down and everyone thinking it was ok was just fantastic. Especially in the case of dwarven castless origin where my character had to endure insults and slander just to get by.

[hitenchi]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Define realism. If realism is massive prejudice, discrimination and hate crime you're totally bringing real world standards into the game. Which isn't just wrong, it's stupid.

It's neither wrong or stupid. It's applying common sense to realise that in any game universe outside of utopian setting, such people with such attitudes would exist and such events would happen therefore should be present if done well. If it is not a utopian game setting then such should be present within the context of the societies, cultures and people of that world. To exclude such would be both stupid and wrong as far as I am concerned. Not everyone in that world, not every society, culture, race or region will have such issues but some would; therefore should exist within the game.

A point to be made is that there are many cultures that have existed without racism or atleast seen it in different ways. Another point that should be made is when there are other sentinent species in a setting, racism and sexism within a particular species doesn't make sense. For example the Qun remides me of the roman empire, all who do not follow there teachings are enemies to be taught or purged, but all who accept can eventually become equal despite background, not as simple but it shares similarities. 

To counter a point earlier there have been swords wielded over 6ft  and believed to have the capability to fell multiple enemies, though a problem is that this would require exceptional strength and the fact that while the lenght of the swords is long the size is particular long.

Believabilty is far more important than realism and i believe people sometimes get these mixed up, i want the setting to make sense in its own context, which doesn't mean it has to make sense in the real world.  

[SpunkyMonkey]

hitenchi wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Define realism. If realism is massive prejudice, discrimination and hate crime you're totally bringing real world standards into the game. Which isn't just wrong, it's stupid.

It's neither wrong or stupid. It's applying common sense to realise that in any game universe outside of utopian setting, such people with such attitudes would exist and such events would happen therefore should be present if done well. If it is not a utopian game setting then such should be present within the context of the societies, cultures and people of that world. To exclude such would be both stupid and wrong as far as I am concerned. Not everyone in that world, not every society, culture, race or region will have such issues but some would; therefore should exist within the game.

A point to be made is that there are many cultures that have existed without racism or atleast seen it in different ways. Another point that should be made is when there are other sentinent species in a setting, racism and sexism within a particular species doesn't make sense. For example the Qun remides me of the roman empire, all who do not follow there teachings are enemies to be taught or purged, but all who accept can eventually become equal despite background, not as simple but it shares similarities. 

To counter a point earlier there have been swords wielded over 6ft  and believed to have the capability to fell multiple enemies, though a problem is that this would require exceptional strength and the fact that while the lenght of the swords is long the size is particular long.

Believabilty is far more important than realism and i believe people sometimes get these mixed up, i want the setting to make sense in its own context, which doesn't mean it has to make sense in the real world.  

True, but I think that Western RPG's are already grounded in a certain level of reality by choosing to be WRPGs in the first place.

A certain set of rules for those games already apply - eg. dwarves as a race aren't 10ft tall - so the more a WRPG drifts from the expected template, the more careful it has to be.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 28 février 2013 - 09:19 .

[BroBear Berbil]

I think around the time I shifted from JRPGs to WRPGs (~13ish) I came to appreciate low-fantasy much more. The darker, grittier, and more human the world and characters are, the better. I can play high-fantasy but it's just not as engaging.

The only thing that would bother me is what I think is the greatest sin of fantasy - teleportation.

Modifié par OnionXI, 28 février 2013 - 09:40 .

[Nokkela]

 For me...as long as they can make it believable (and by that I mean come up with an explanation/write it well/give reason for it - there are a million and one ways for a writer to make something believable and sell it to the audience as "fact" within their world/universe/lore) and don't break their own rules without any explanation what-so-ever, anything goes.