142 réponses à ce sujet

[Sacred_Fantasy]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
So does it matter to you? Do you want to feel like you're in a middle aged England but one which has magic and demons? Or could you not care less and accept 10 stone elves weilding two-handed swords bigger than they are?

I want to feel the reality of fantasy middle age Europe ( not necessary England alone ). I want to be alive in those time. I want to walk the streets,  marvel at the scenenary and talk to the people. Most important of all,  I want to be a hero, to wield my sword and shield in Chivalry manner to uphold the law and justice and to protect the innocents. Yet I don't want to be morally good character. I want to drink fine ale, bed fine wenches, and smash the ugly thugs skulls with my bare hands. I want to be a chaotic lawful character whose reasoning is always mystery to anyone else.  That's why I play an RPG. 

Unfortunately, RPG these days are no longer the stage and the world for me to live those fantasy. They have become the platform for developers to tell their own story and characters. My role is reduced to only combat, move and limited interactivity with the world and people. Worst of all, my role is reduced to be the third person observer or director who mainly watch and listen the story play out as the developers enthusiastically tell their story and characters. 

So what does it matter anymore how much reality do I like in my fantasy? I no longer live on those fantasy. There is only the developer fantasy, one that always railroaded into a single predetermined destination. Soon my interest in roleplying my fantasy will diminish as I currently look for other alternatives in the form of strategy games and life simulation games.

[Boiny Bunny]

Personally, I'm not bothered by visual elements (such as ridiculous weapon sizes, or crazy animations for swinging them around), nor things like female characters having the same potential stats as male characters.

What does bother me is one-dimensional characters, who are defined by a single past event in their life, and fit into a single unshakable personality stereotype. Or characters that literally exist for no reason other than to bend the plot in a particular direction at one point in the game. I would love to see more flawed and 'real' characters (both in your party and opposing you), with streaks of grey in their personalities, rather than just having a bunch of goody goody two shoes with abused histories, and utterly evil or utterly insane villians (which Bioware excels at).

A little more ASoIaF in the writing of the characters would be welcome.

DA2 made me lose a lot of faith in Bioware's ability to write decent characters (given that DA:O has some of their better written and slightly more believable characters IMO).

On a slightly more controversial note, generally I feel that most of the characters in The Witcher series are more like 'real people' than those in Bioware games. True - generally they don't have anywhere near as much dialogue, and you don't spend as much time with them (or get the chance to romance them etc.) - but they just speak and act more like real people.

I must also admit, the extreme amount of structuring in developing character relationships within your party in recent Bioware games is a large turn off for me. It feels like a box checking exercise when I finish a mission in ME2, and have to run around the ship talking to everybody, or have my 1 or so home base conversations (marked by quests) and 1 side-quest per act per character in DA2. It would feel a little more organic if these events felt a bit more random, and weren't attached to sidequests.

Well, that's my opinion anyway. Take away from that what you will.

[Solmanian]

I want realistic combat.

[Degs29]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
I personally like a realistic foundation, with fantasy elements built on top of that.

That is exactly my mindset.  Not just video games either.  Movies and books that take place in fantastical settings, but with a realism to it.  It's difficult to put into words.  For instance, I was disappointed with some of the first Hobbit movie; some scenes seemed to ignore the laws of physics.  When I told a friend how stupid it was that dwarves could fall hundreds of feet without broken bones -- or injury of any kind for that matter -- he looked at me like I was crazy and said "well yeah, it's fantasy".  He doesn't get it.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
So does it matter to you? Do you want to feel like you're in a middle aged England but one which has magic and demons? Or could you not care less and accept 10 stone elves weilding two-handed swords bigger than they are?

I want to feel the reality of fantasy middle age Europe ( not necessary England alone ). I want to be alive in those time. I want to walk the streets,  marvel at the scenenary and talk to the people. Most important of all,  I want to be a hero, to wield my sword and shield in Chivalry manner to uphold the law and justice and to protect the innocents. Yet I don't want to be morally good character. I want to drink fine ale, bed fine wenches, and smash the ugly thugs skulls with my bare hands. I want to be a chaotic lawful character whose reasoning is always mystery to anyone else.  That's why I play an RPG.

Unfortunately, RPG these days are no longer the stage and the world for me to live those fantasy. They have become the platform for developers to tell their own story and characters. My role is reduced to only combat, move and limited interactivity with the world and people. Worst of all, my role is reduced to be the third person observer or director who mainly watch and listen the story play out as the developers enthusiastically tell their story and characters.

So what does it matter anymore how much reality do I like in my fantasy? I no longer live on those fantasy. There is only the developer fantasy, one that always railroaded into a single predetermined destination. Soon my interest in roleplying my fantasy will diminish as I currently look for other alternatives in the form of strategy games and life simulation games.

That's a very good point actually.

The first thing that got me into RPG's was playing table-top Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay "Enemy Within" series. Ever since then I've always wanted computer games to essentially capture as much of that as possible.

We've come close a few times with BG and DA:O, but every time it seems as if it's almost getting there it suddenly seems to be a u-turn in appriach and we end up with stuff like DA:2.

The same as TES series - now it's all about how big the world is as if it's some way of comparing manhood length, instead of actually creating an absorbing FRPG experience.

Boiny Bunny wrote...

I must also admit, the extreme amount of structuring in developing character relationships within your party in recent Bioware games is a large turn off for me. It feels like a box checking exercise when I finish a mission in ME2, and have to run around the ship talking to everybody, or have my 1 or so home base conversations (marked by quests) and 1 side-quest per act per character in DA2. It would feel a little more organic if these events felt a bit more random, and weren't attached to sidequests.

Yeah, there's a very "processed" feel to a lot of games now

Degs29 wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
I personally like a realistic foundation, with fantasy elements built on top of that.

That is exactly my mindset.  Not just video games either.  Movies and books that take place in fantastical settings, but with a realism to it.  It's difficult to put into words.  For instance, I was disappointed with some of the first Hobbit movie; some scenes seemed to ignore the laws of physics.  When I told a friend how stupid it was that dwarves could fall hundreds of feet without broken bones -- or injury of any kind for that matter -- he looked at me like I was crazy and said "well yeah, it's fantasy".  He doesn't get it.

I HATE that. Flights of fantasy? Fair enough. Outlandish things which happen? Again no probs. But when the very basics are ignored it just makes me cringe, and stupidly long falls are one of the most annoying.

[Shevy]

The world can have her own rules but then the game should follow them. I think Origins did it in a great way, nothing felt out of the place.

DA II did it for the most time, too. Except Orsinos transformation into an harvester and Merediths 30 meter backflip thing. Sure, I don't know what powers the idol provided her, but it felt totally out of place and was more ludicrous than cool or whatever it tried to be.
So, for DA III I would advice to not include such scenes in cinematics just to "look cool".

[SpunkyMonkey]

Shevy_001 wrote...

The world can have her own rules but then the game should follow them. I think Origins did it in a great way, nothing felt out of the place.

DA II did it for the most time, too. Except Orsinos transformation into an harvester and Merediths 30 meter backflip thing. Sure, I don't know what powers the idol provided her, but it felt totally out of place and was more ludicrous than cool or whatever it tried to be.
So, for DA III I would advice to not include such scenes in cinematics just to "look cool".

There was way too much "cool" for my liking in DA:2. It just watered everything down.

[Xilizhra]

What does bother me is one-dimensional characters, who are defined by a single past event in their life, and fit into a single unshakable personality stereotype. Or characters that literally exist for no reason other than to bend the plot in a particular direction at one point in the game. I would love to see more flawed and 'real' characters (both in your party and opposing you), with streaks of grey in their personalities, rather than just having a bunch of goody goody two shoes with abused histories, and utterly evil or utterly insane villians (which Bioware excels at).

A little more ASoIaF in the writing of the characters would be welcome.

DA2 made me lose a lot of faith in Bioware's ability to write decent characters (given that DA:O has some of their better written and slightly more believable characters IMO).

In terms of companions, DA2 only had two characters who were so rigidly focused. It's possible that you'd prefer none at all, of course, but Bioware can still do character writing quite well, and to be honest, I find it a bit interesting to see people who differ so much, in that way, from the human norm, those who possess a certain razor-sharp focus on what matters most to them.

Also, I don't believe medievalesque fantasy is the be-all and end-all of fantasy. We can have the tech level without having the exact society; there are sure to be millions of little cultural differences that would take the world into different places.

[Plaintiff]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
So does it matter to you? Do you want to feel like you're in a middle aged England but one which has magic and demons? Or could you not care less and accept 10 stone elves weilding two-handed swords bigger than they are?

I want to feel the reality of fantasy middle age Europe ( not necessary England alone ). I want to be alive in those time. I want to walk the streets,  marvel at the scenenary and talk to the people. Most important of all,  I want to be a hero, to wield my sword and shield in Chivalry manner to uphold the law and justice and to protect the innocents. Yet I don't want to be morally good character. I want to drink fine ale, bed fine wenches, and smash the ugly thugs skulls with my bare hands. I want to be a chaotic lawful character whose reasoning is always mystery to anyone else.  That's why I play an RPG. 

Unfortunately, RPG these days are no longer the stage and the world for me to live those fantasy. They have become the platform for developers to tell their own story and characters. My role is reduced to only combat, move and limited interactivity with the world and people. Worst of all, my role is reduced to be the third person observer or director who mainly watch and listen the story play out as the developers enthusiastically tell their story and characters. 

So what does it matter anymore how much reality do I like in my fantasy? I no longer live on those fantasy. There is only the developer fantasy, one that always railroaded into a single predetermined destination. Soon my interest in roleplying my fantasy will diminish as I currently look for other alternatives in the form of strategy games and life simulation games.

You think Bioware's games aren't giving you enough choice, we get it.

Must you launch into a tirade on this subject in every thread? Or are you capable of actually discussing the subject at hand?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 mars 2013 - 01:24 .

[Sandy]

A song of ice and fire does it perfectly in my opinion. Thedas obviously has more magic and stuff than the world of ASOIAF, but I really would like for them to bring Dragon Age back more toward a realistic low-fantasy setting, mire aimed toward politics, intrigue, battles between humans(and other non-magical/mystical races/beings). Same goes for weapons and armors and items, A good castel-forged steel sword should be a superb weapon, not something you discard after lvl 3 in the game.

Something like that would be ideal for me.

[Xilizhra]

sandellniklas wrote...

A song of ice and fire does it perfectly in my opinion. Thedas obviously has more magic and stuff than the world of ASOIAF, but I really would like for them to bring Dragon Age back more toward a realistic low-fantasy setting, mire aimed toward politics, intrigue, battles between humans(and other non-magical/mystical races/beings). Same goes for weapons and armors and items, A good castel-forged steel sword should be a superb weapon, not something you discard after lvl 3 in the game.

Something like that would be ideal for me.

Ick. No. Nothing from that series; there's a reason I don't read it, it's too damned depressing. In any case, I'm very fond of magic and enjoy exploring its lore. And what are you saying about items, that you'd get the one you'd keep for the rest of the game at level three?

[Plaintiff]

Xilizhra wrote...

sandellniklas wrote...

A song of ice and fire does it perfectly in my opinion. Thedas obviously has more magic and stuff than the world of ASOIAF, but I really would like for them to bring Dragon Age back more toward a realistic low-fantasy setting, mire aimed toward politics, intrigue, battles between humans(and other non-magical/mystical races/beings). Same goes for weapons and armors and items, A good castel-forged steel sword should be a superb weapon, not something you discard after lvl 3 in the game.

Something like that would be ideal for me.

Ick. No. Nothing from that series; there's a reason I don't read it, it's too damned depressing. In any case, I'm very fond of magic and enjoy exploring its lore. And what are you saying about items, that you'd get the one you'd keep for the rest of the game at level three?

Speaking as someone who's only seen the TV show, I just find it incredibly dull. When I pick up a series claiming to be fantasy, I don't want to sit through 11 episodes of talking waiting for a single fantasy element to appear.

If I wanted political intrigue, I would watch any of the dozens of shows that are already about that and don't claim to be fantasy.

[imbs]

Heaven forbird >1 genre and/or theme is covered by any piece of media. That'd just b 2 confusing. Tbh I frankly dont understand all these serious films that often have jokes and comic relief in em. If I wanted to laugh I'd watch a comedy, right?

W8 no thats utterly terrible reasoning

Modifié par imbs, 04 mars 2013 - 02:29 .

[Plaintiff]

imbs wrote...

Heaven forbird >1 genre and/or theme is covered by any piece of media. That'd just b 2 confusing. Tbh I frankly dont understand all these serious films that often have jokes and comic relief in em. If I wanted to laugh I'd watch a comedy, right?

W8 no thats utterly terrible reasoning

And you accuse me of strawman arguments.

There is nothing wrong with poltiical intrigue being present in a fantasy series, nor did I say that there was. The problem arises when your fantasy series consists only of political drama and has virtually no fantasy elements in it. There would be no problem if the fantasy and the politics were present in equal amounts, or if the two elements were even woven together, which shouldn't be very difficult to pull off at all. What is even the point of having magic in your setting if everyone is going to carry on acting like it doesn't exist? How come none of the characters think to use magic as a solution to their problems? Or as a weapon?

There is not a single spell cast, nor fantastical creature shown, until the last two episodes of the first season. Up until that point, there's nothing at all (apart from massive amounts of gratuitous nudity) to distinguish the series from every other non-fantasy drama on television.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 mars 2013 - 02:44 .

[Pelle6666]

I want there to be enough realism in the game that when a super natural or magic event happens you will feel like this is something extraordinary. That's why I preferred the human noble origin in DAO, that way the fist encounters with the dark spawn felt like a real threat to the characters way of life. I also love how they introduced Morrigan and Flemeth. The fact that they are witches is obvious but you never see any actual proof of their powers. Even Flemet's rescue from the tower is only told to the player in a dialog with Morrigan after the battle is over.
In DA3 I'd like to see more of this and less sparkles and explosions. That is the thing I didn't like about the beginning of DA2, way too much action with characters you didn't know and had not even start to relate to. This would ad to the realism in a way that wouldn't hurt the reality of magic and monsters that exists within the game world.

[Boiny Bunny]

Xilizhra wrote...

What does bother me is one-dimensional characters, who are defined by a single past event in their life, and fit into a single unshakable personality stereotype. Or characters that literally exist for no reason other than to bend the plot in a particular direction at one point in the game. I would love to see more flawed and 'real' characters (both in your party and opposing you), with streaks of grey in their personalities, rather than just having a bunch of goody goody two shoes with abused histories, and utterly evil or utterly insane villians (which Bioware excels at).

A little more ASoIaF in the writing of the characters would be welcome.

DA2 made me lose a lot of faith in Bioware's ability to write decent characters (given that DA:O has some of their better written and slightly more believable characters IMO).

In terms of companions, DA2 only had two characters who were so rigidly focused. It's possible that you'd prefer none at all, of course, but Bioware can still do character writing quite well, and to be honest, I find it a bit interesting to see people who differ so much, in that way, from the human norm, those who possess a certain razor-sharp focus on what matters most to them.

Well, I don't want to debate the specifics of DA2's individual characters here - it would be off-topic and has been done here a thousand times over.  Suffice to say, I felt that the many of them (those within Hawke's party and those outside of it) were rather shallow, defined by a common stereotype, and/or a past event that changed their life.  Bioware can do character writing quite well, generally, for a video game.  That's not a very high standard though.

[Boiny Bunny]

Plaintiff wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

sandellniklas wrote...

A song of ice and fire does it perfectly in my opinion. Thedas obviously has more magic and stuff than the world of ASOIAF, but I really would like for them to bring Dragon Age back more toward a realistic low-fantasy setting, mire aimed toward politics, intrigue, battles between humans(and other non-magical/mystical races/beings). Same goes for weapons and armors and items, A good castel-forged steel sword should be a superb weapon, not something you discard after lvl 3 in the game.

Something like that would be ideal for me.

Ick. No. Nothing from that series; there's a reason I don't read it, it's too damned depressing. In any case, I'm very fond of magic and enjoy exploring its lore. And what are you saying about items, that you'd get the one you'd keep for the rest of the game at level three?

Speaking as someone who's only seen the TV show, I just find it incredibly dull. When I pick up a series claiming to be fantasy, I don't want to sit through 11 episodes of talking waiting for a single fantasy element to appear.

If I wanted political intrigue, I would watch any of the dozens of shows that are already about that and don't claim to be fantasy.

That is most likely a marketing flaw - whilst aSoIaF technically contains fantasty elements, it is not really a 'fantasy story' by any stretch of the imagination.  It is essentially a fictional novel about war and politics, with a fairly realistic medieval Europe styled setting, and extremely light fantasy elements floating about in the background (which really, serve no purpose other than to provide the Deus Ex Machina at the end of the last book).

If you're after magic and fantasy creatures, aSoIaF is not the place to look.

[-TC1989-]

When I start seeing Unicorns... I start questioning the limits at what the game is reaching for.

Modifié par -TC1989-, 04 mars 2013 - 11:22 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Boiny Bunny wrote...
(which really, serve no purpose other than to provide the Deus Ex Machina at the end of the last book).

Please be trolling.

Plaintiff wrote...
There is nothing wrong with poltiical intrigue being present in a fantasy series, nor did I say that there was. The problem arises when your fantasy series consists only of political drama and has virtually no fantasy elements in it. There would be no problem if the fantasy and the politics were present in equal amounts, or if the two elements were even woven together,which shouldn't be very difficult to pull off at all. What is even the point of having magic in your setting if everyone is going to carry on acting like it doesn't exist? How come none of the characters think to use magic as a solution to their problems? Or as a weapon?

...alright, maybe the two of you aren't trolling. They're acting like it doesn't exist because it doesn't exist. Magic has been gone from the world for quite some time and begins to return with the beginning of winter. Consequently, the amount of fantasy increases as the series progresses.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 04 mars 2013 - 11:29 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...
(which really, serve no purpose other than to provide the Deus Ex Machina at the end of the last book).

Please be trolling.

I'm not sure where you're coming from - so I'll be careful with my response.

First of all, the last book has not been released (and likely wont be until around 2019), so if you have been watching the show and are worried that I've just spoiled the ending for you, that's not true - I don't know what how the ending will actually turn out, and the statement above is my own supposition.

That said, if you are coming from the angle of having read all 5 books currently released, and disagree with my statement, I'd be more than happy to discuss with you over PMs or in an Off-Topic thread (there are a few on GoT or aSoIaF).

[sunnydxmen]

The only realism i want is no dumb npc who cant figure out you a mage even though you use magic in front of them and have the robes and staff other then that no.

[sunnydxmen]

renjility wrote...

I want a fantasy world that is believable, realistic and follows its own rules. DA2 really messed up on that. Codex entry says mages can't teleport, yet you have enemy mages disappearing and a second later reappearing on the other side of the room. Fighting and combat is important in DA, so I expect armor and weapon designs that are realistically useful for battle, so no random spikes and blades as long as the warrior who wields it. Blood magic is supposed to be rare, yet you can't turn around a corner in Kirkwall without bumping into one. Hawke is a mage, and all templars are blind and deaf to it.

Codex is not fact that codex could have been made when mages didnt know how to teleport or the codex  writer did not know it was possible how many mages know about arcane warrior.

[Fishy]

Pelle6666 wrote...

I want there to be enough realism in the game that when a super natural or magic event happens you will feel like this is something extraordinary. That's why I preferred the human noble origin in DAO, that way the fist encounters with the dark spawn felt like a real threat to the characters way of life. I also love how they introduced Morrigan and Flemeth. The fact that they are witches is obvious but you never see any actual proof of their powers. Even Flemet's rescue from the tower is only told to the player in a dialog with Morrigan after the battle is over.
In DA3 I'd like to see more of this and less sparkles and explosions. That is the thing I didn't like about the beginning of DA2, way too much action with characters you didn't know and had not even start to relate to. This would ad to the realism in a way that wouldn't hurt the reality of magic and monsters that exists within the game world.

This one agree.

[StUnNeR H2K]

Reality in the choices characters make, the things they say (words they use) and the reality of how things are connected in the Universe. If it's fantasy or sci-fi and fiction, anything can happen as long as it makes sense and doesn't just fly into the story from the middle of nowhere to come to a conclusion or move the story along.

aka Mass Effect 3 ending (I know it's getting old)

[Sharn01]

Realism as compared to the real world is unnecessary in a fantasy setting. What is important in any sci-fi or fantasy setting is for the writers to create the lore and the rules for that setting and abide by those rules and lore. When most people talk about something in a fantasy setting being unrealistic they are, well, I am hoping they are talking about it breaking established rules set in the universe, even if it doesn't completely break the lore and rules of the setting, there needs to be an explanation.

An example of changing things up properly with say teleportation, its suppose to be impossible in Dragon Age, so if it happened the NPC's should not simply shrug their shoulder's and move on like nothing happened if they are knowledgeable about magic, they should be taken aback, they should verbally say in some fashion how that should be impossible. Later the story can explain how it was possible, or a trick, or whatever. The point is if your going to change things up it needs to be done in a certain way, and lately a lot of writers just throw the rules and lore out the window and say "magic" and nobody in the story bats an eye at what happened.