142 réponses à ce sujet

[grumpymooselion]

The weapons and armor in DA2 were fine, as far as I could see. Nothing bugged me, so that far out of the bounds of what's sensible or realistic works. I'm not really looking for any real ounce of reality though. A lot of the, "that's not realistic' complaints I hear, I look at, and then shrug. I'm not much of a stickler about the more fantastical elements.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Sharn01 wrote...

Realism as compared to the real world is unnecessary in a fantasy setting.

Whilst it isn't necessary, that doesn't mean a lot of people don't like RPG's with a huge dose of reality in there though - eg The Witcher 2.

There may be a heavy coating of fantasy atop of that, but TWI2 tries to build a world where fantasy is very much a part of a reality, and the overall vibe is that of a downbeat, gritty medival world.

You're spot on with what you say - so long as the lore matches up and the game is good then that's all that really does matter - but when starting this thread I was wondering how much of that grit, grime and connection with a medival world people want in their WRPGs?

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 05 mars 2013 - 12:56 .

[grumpymooselion]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Realism as compared to the real world is unnecessary in a fantasy setting.

Whilst it isn't necessary, that doesn't mean a lot of people don't like RPG's with a huge dose of reality in there though - eg The Witcher 2.

There may be a heavy coating of fantasy atop of that, but TWI2 tries to build a world where fantasy is very much a part of a reality, and the overall vibe is that of a downbeat, gritty medival world.

You're spot on with what you say - so long as the lore matches up and the game is good then that's all that really does matter - but when starting this thread I was wondering how much of that grit, grime and connection with a medival world people want in their WRPGs?

In those terms? Not much at all. Realism is one thing, but yet another fantasy with heavy medival and 'grit/grime' proposed as something that makes a world more realistic? I can do without more of those. There are far too many of them. The other side of the coin you have the more cartoony things that go too far the other direction like Kingdoms of Amalur . . .  and that's just as wrong (for my tastes, and just my tastes - I speak for no one else) as things that go too far in the "see all this grit and grime! That's means it's more realstic and better than things without it!" direction.

Something like DA:O had its flaws, but I liked it. For all its flaws 'in some ways' I actually liked DA2 a tiny bit better in 'some' areas, because it was a little less, "dark army invades the land, you're the hero, do something about it." I guess in terms of the more realstic RPGs I will gladly go with things like DA:O, DA2, The Witcher 2, Dragon's Dogma, Dark Souls, Morrowind, Skyrim, Anvil of Dawn, Lands of Lore, Menzoberranzan, Eye of the Beholder, Ultima, Ultima Underworld, Arx Fatalis, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Gothic II, Age of Conan (that little single player portion it offered) and so on but . . . I've just seen too much medival inspiration. I'd like something different. And there is different out there, it's just WRPGs are very saturated with medival inspiration.

In a way I'd actually like to see more of a 'primitive' RPG or 'ancient' RPG that took place in Cave Hunter Gatherer, Tribal Hunter Gatherer, Stone Age and early Bronze Age civilization type settings with a focus on weapon and armor types that aren't typicall seen or used (but from history. Any break from another medival inspired WRPG is a boon in my book, it's why, despite any flaws, I'm still thankful for Jade Empire to this day.

-

On the more fantastical side of things? I need that too. I'll get bored of just WRPGs, and more realstic WRPGs in particular. I like them, but if you play anything too much you'll burn out. I already expressed dislike for WRPGs like Kingdom's of Amalur but other, also somewhat cartoony adventure/RPG hybrids from the west are great - just look at the Quest for Glory series. But because a lot of the more fantastical western games don't appeal to me, I do tend toward JRPGs for the more fantastical elements; the SaGa series comes to mind (Romancing SaGa and SaGa Frontier stick with me especially), the Mana series (especially the wonderfully non-linear Legend of Mana), Treasure of Rudra, Live A Live, Final Fantasy IV, V, VI, Tactics IX and XII (zodiac/international), the Persona series, the SMT series, White Knight Chronicles, Folklore (another hybrid actually), Ni No Kuni and so on.

Sometimes I just need something more 'out there' but, even when I'm in the mood for a WRPG I still groan over the obsession some have with them being medival europe inspired, accurate to history (for some ungodly reason) and the obsession with grit and grime boggle me. Sure things would have been dirty back then, but logically if you have magic in place of technology (or both) I'm going to assume some people know how to clean things/themselves. Then again I look at magic in a fantasy setting much the way I'd look at technology or a gun - I don't see a dimwit with armor and a sword taking on the mage that can call lightning down from the sky anymore than I see the same dimwit taking on a soldier with an automatic rifle.

Magic in my mind is essentially another path to advancement, in my mind, much like Science and thus Technology. So it weirds me out when I see western RPG settings that don't use it to advance their culture and quality of life unless there's good reason (which the DA:O/DA2 games actually provide, and it's lovely - the Templars even explain for once why the Mage doesn't just fry them, but it also adds a negative to what grants them the ability to somewhat shrug off magic). Fun stuff.

Anyways, I do think I rambled enough.

[SpunkyMonkey]

^You see I really like the gritty style WRPG simply because it was how old style table-top games originally painted a picture for me.

I also like more fantastical stuff too, but I think a gritty setting lends itself to more political games with more depth. One of my main gripes with DA:2 was that it tried to be OTT and fantastical, yet had a very mundane and non-fantastical plot.

[Plaintiff]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Realism as compared to the real world is unnecessary in a fantasy setting.

Whilst it isn't necessary, that doesn't mean a lot of people don't like RPG's with a huge dose of reality in there though - eg The Witcher 2.

There may be a heavy coating of fantasy atop of that, but TWI2 tries to build a world where fantasy is very much a part of a reality, and the overall vibe is that of a downbeat, gritty medival world.

You're spot on with what you say - so long as the lore matches up and the game is good then that's all that really does matter - but when starting this thread I was wondering how much of that grit, grime and connection with a medival world people want in their WRPGs?

Personally, I'd like the Fantasy genre as a whole to start moving far away from the "medieval" setting and start exploring other possibilities.

[Medhia Nox]

How about an historically educated medieval setting? A Song of Ice and Fire is close (particularly in politics and warfare).

Personally - I'd like a fantasy genre based on the India of the Vedas, Three Kingdoms China, the ancient Western world (Greece, Egypt, Persia, Rome), Pre-Colonial North/South America.

The magic of something like Hyboria is SO much better than that of something like Dragon Age for me.

[Boiny Bunny]

Plaintiff wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Realism as compared to the real world is unnecessary in a fantasy setting.

Whilst it isn't necessary, that doesn't mean a lot of people don't like RPG's with a huge dose of reality in there though - eg The Witcher 2.

There may be a heavy coating of fantasy atop of that, but TWI2 tries to build a world where fantasy is very much a part of a reality, and the overall vibe is that of a downbeat, gritty medival world.

You're spot on with what you say - so long as the lore matches up and the game is good then that's all that really does matter - but when starting this thread I was wondering how much of that grit, grime and connection with a medival world people want in their WRPGs?

Personally, I'd like the Fantasy genre as a whole to start moving far away from the "medieval" setting and start exploring other possibilities.

Like what?  Do you mean (say) mixing technology and magic, like most of the FF games past FF6?

[Plaintiff]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Realism as compared to the real world is unnecessary in a fantasy setting.

Whilst it isn't necessary, that doesn't mean a lot of people don't like RPG's with a huge dose of reality in there though - eg The Witcher 2.

There may be a heavy coating of fantasy atop of that, but TWI2 tries to build a world where fantasy is very much a part of a reality, and the overall vibe is that of a downbeat, gritty medival world.

You're spot on with what you say - so long as the lore matches up and the game is good then that's all that really does matter - but when starting this thread I was wondering how much of that grit, grime and connection with a medival world people want in their WRPGs?

Personally, I'd like the Fantasy genre as a whole to start moving far away from the "medieval" setting and start exploring other possibilities.

Like what?  Do you mean (say) mixing technology and magic, like most of the FF games past FF6?

No, mixing magic and technology is not required, but I give credit to Japanese games for being more willing to experiment.

I want different settings. Just because something is "Fantasy"  doesn't mean it's required to be a rehash of the same old pseudo-medieval European claptrap. The best thing about the Fantasy genre is the massive amount of freedom writers have to exercise their imaginations. But given the choice, it seems many of them are content to knock off Tolkien and Arthurian legend. Maybe Buffy-style urban fantasy, if we're lucky.

There are plenty of recent examples in cinema of Fantasy stories departing from the traditional setting, and there's no reason fantasy literature and videogames can't do the same.

Take inspiration from Ancient Greece, Rome, China and Egypt, take it from the Wild West, Victorian London, the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. Take it from the Golden Age of Piracy and the surrounding mythos. Take it from the tales of Scheherazade and the adventures of Sinbad the Sailor.

This is hardly an exhaustive list. There are literally infinite opportunities to create something that, while not unique, would stand out a mile from the homogeneous swamp in which most fantasy work is currently mired.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Plaintiff wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Realism as compared to the real world is unnecessary in a fantasy setting.

Whilst it isn't necessary, that doesn't mean a lot of people don't like RPG's with a huge dose of reality in there though - eg The Witcher 2.

There may be a heavy coating of fantasy atop of that, but TWI2 tries to build a world where fantasy is very much a part of a reality, and the overall vibe is that of a downbeat, gritty medival world.

You're spot on with what you say - so long as the lore matches up and the game is good then that's all that really does matter - but when starting this thread I was wondering how much of that grit, grime and connection with a medival world people want in their WRPGs?

Personally, I'd like the Fantasy genre as a whole to start moving far away from the "medieval" setting and start exploring other possibilities.

Like what?  Do you mean (say) mixing technology and magic, like most of the FF games past FF6?

No, mixing magic and technology is not required, but I give credit to Japanese games for being more willing to experiment.

I want different settings. Just because something is "Fantasy"  doesn't mean it's required to be a rehash of the same old pseudo-medieval European claptrap. The best thing about the Fantasy genre is the massive amount of freedom writers have to exercise their imaginations. But given the choice, it seems many of them are content to knock off Tolkien and Arthurian legend. Maybe Buffy-style urban fantasy, if we're lucky.

There are plenty of recent examples in cinema of Fantasy stories departing from the traditional setting, and there's no reason fantasy literature and videogames can't do the same.

Take inspiration from Ancient Greece, Rome, China and Egypt, take it from the Wild West, Victorian London, the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. Take it from the Golden Age of Piracy and the surrounding mythos. Take it from the tales of Scheherazade and the adventures of Sinbad the Sailor.

This is hardly an exhaustive list. There are literally infinite opportunities to create something that, while not unique, would stand out a mile from the homogeneous swamp in which most fantasy work is currently mired.

Where I think they have got it wrong previously is by mixing the two. DA:2 is a perfect example o this for me - OTT and stylized asthetics, but a mundane, downtrodden adventure with hardly any real flight of fantasy when compared to other RPGs.

I'd love to see some of those other inspirations used which you mention. But I also hope that if they do that they build upon the core vibe which is set as opposed to going against it.

TWI2 does a great job of embracinging the medival feel, I'd want to see something similar with another setting. Where games go wrong is by contradicting themselves on the setting or vibe. Imagine playing a Greek based FRPG where no gods appear anywhere - it'd feel odd.

[Uccio]

I think some ideas for settings are good. Such as Rome, Hellenic etc. But such neolith or chinese are too far away in time and place to pic my interest. As much I enjoy visiting modern China the idea of playing a game based on the imperial era has no appeal to me. Maybe its the cultural difference, I don't know.

[Mantaal]

I think Realism is the most important thing in every Fantasy Setting.

If you want to build a good fantasy universe you need to make it realistic.
Bad Fanatsy Games/books/Movies/PnP have no realism and peoples dont like them the most times.

Noone want to see a Legolas in Lord of the Rings turing in a Purple Unicorn and toasting Orcs with Lightnigs out of his ass.
No one want to see a Drizzt Do'Urden with a 10 meter long Saber shooting Laser beams out of his Eyes..

You get what im talking about..

If you build a Fantasy world you build the Rules in this World to make it realistic. You have to explain why there is magic and where it comes from. You have to build up the Flora and the Fauna, the natural Rules of this world.
If you done with that you should never ever ignore your own Rules of Reality. It makes the Fantasy world unbelievable and uninteresting.
There is nothing wrong with Talking inteligent Dragons.
But If you have Dragons as Huge Magic Animals, they should not start to talk.

If you shape your Fantasy world and insert Humans living in there, they should not wield a Huge Twohanded Sword in the size of a Human with one hand swing it around like its nothing.
Humans just CANT DO THAT. And if they do that you have to explain Why they can.

The Best Fantasy Worlds have a strong realism. Thats why Dungeon and Dragons Universe is so Perfect. Its realistic inside thier own rules and ever been. There is every little thing in this world explained and thought trugh.
Without realism it would just be bad.

Btw that is why i dont like the most Anime Stories. They are way to unrealistic for me most of the time. (There are some good after all)

[JediGuy]

Medhia Nox wrote...

How about an historically educated medieval setting? A Song of Ice and Fire is close (particularly in politics and warfare).

Personally - I'd like a fantasy genre based on the India of the Vedas, Three Kingdoms China, the ancient Western world (Greece, Egypt, Persia, Rome), Pre-Colonial North/South America.

The magic of something like Hyboria is SO much better than that of something like Dragon Age for me.

This. I'm still waiting for my Pirate-themed BioWare RPG. It never does come... well, guess I'll have to resign myself to the new Assassin's Creed.

[Medhia Nox]

@JediGuy: My friend, I feel your pain.

By Kali's Sacred Hot Sauce - the Hindu epics are amazing.

[grumpymooselion]

Pirates of Darkwater - the Obsidian/Bioware open world, open sea, RPG with Assassin's Creed 3 style ship sections would be one of those dreams that . . . always turn out to just be dreams.

[JediGuy]

Imagine that for a moment (dreaming is free)

The officers from the Royal Navies could be the Warriors; the "Mages" could be Witch-Doctors from Afro-Caribbean faiths/traditions; and the iconic, dashing Swashbuckler takes the role of the Rogue.
Seriously, they wouldn't even need to make a new setting for this, just put it in 17th or 18th century Caribbean and it'd be golden.

[Heimdall]

JediGuy wrote...

Imagine that for a moment (dreaming is free)

The officers from the Royal Navies could be the Warriors; the "Mages" could be Witch-Doctors from Afro-Caribbean faiths/traditions; and the iconic, dashing Swashbuckler takes the role of the Rogue.
Seriously, they wouldn't even need to make a new setting for this, just put it in 17th or 18th century Caribbean and it'd be golden.

Wait!  You mean I'm not the only one that has that dream? 

[Vicious]

I prefer realistic as possible. If I wanted a game where magic is the all encompassing deus ex machina get out of bad writing free card, i'd play a jrpg.


When I play a wrpg, particularly a Bioware game, I want human [or insert sentient here] drama. I want Saren's, Loghain's, Malak's, Sarevok's. Evil or better yet misguided/their own moral compass men and women.

Do you think Game of Thrones would be as popular with the adult crowd if wizards were flinging fireballs all over the place? Even the Lord of the Rings movies minimized 'magic' for that reason.

That said, there were flaming swords from the get-go [DA:O] so no, seriously the realism/dark fantasy boat has long sailed and this is dungeons and dragons now.

Modifié par Vicious, 07 mars 2013 - 04:51 .

[JediGuy]

Lord Aesir wrote...

JediGuy wrote...

Imagine that for a moment (dreaming is free)

The officers from the Royal Navies could be the Warriors; the "Mages" could be Witch-Doctors from Afro-Caribbean faiths/traditions; and the iconic, dashing Swashbuckler takes the role of the Rogue.
Seriously, they wouldn't even need to make a new setting for this, just put it in 17th or 18th century Caribbean and it'd be golden.

Wait!  You mean I'm not the only one that has that dream? 

No, brother, you are not alone.