27 réponses à ce sujet

[ZaroktheImmortal]

What is the best Specialization for a Rogue?

[mousestalker]

What do you want to accomplish with your character? You can go for ranged damage, several types of close in melee damage, do some crowd control or be a generalist with all sorts of non-combat skills, or mix 'n match any of the above.



It's a flexible class....

[Gravemaskin]

Go high dex/cunning for your rogue. Then snatch up Duelist as fast as you can. Lastly catch Assassin.



With Dueling and Keen Defence on, you'll have a great attack and defence. And their last ability.. which gives you automatic critical hits for X seconds.. just rocks.



Critical hits when you're behind someone, maxed out and you can get it to be 180* of the person's 360 arc. Critical hits when you activate Duellist ultimate ability. And normal critical hits.

And thanks to the assassin abilities, your backstabs will be pretty damn dangerous. Just have a fighter in your group that taunts, and a spirit healer in your party to heal people, and you'll pretty much be able to handle everything. As long as the tank keeps people off your back. But even when that fails, you're pretty safe. You'll have low armor, sure. But if you can catch the best medium armor set, you'll have -% on your load, and get pretty cheap power activations.



My first playtrough like this, I was a rogue assassin/duelist, and handled just about everything. If you're equipped right, and max out dex/cunning, you'll have higher attack and defence than your fighters and tanks.. and pretty much high enough for no one, but bosses to hit you. and that's when mage hexers really really help you out. Auto misses, while you stun and backstab/critical hit them dead.



Only reason I think rogues are easier to play than mages, are because rogues handle better than warriors, even in crowds.. and mages, you get in abundance anyway. At least enough of them, to cover your needs.

[bobtheworm]

my rogue got all of the rogue skills with Duelist and Assassin. The most important skill was Coup de Grace in the rogue line because it allowed me to equip paralys runes in my weapons and stun and backstab without being behind a person.

[TheMufflon]

I'd say that for a melee rogue Assassin is by some margin the best specialization, with Ranger and Bard sharing the 2nd place and Duelist coming in dead last.



If you want to use ranged weapons your gonna want to be a Bard/Ranger (in either order), because anything else would just be stupid.

[tetracycloide]

For high cunning builds, reguardless of weapon choice, Bard is the best specilization. Buffs are party wide and gain bonuses with cunning.



For all other stat builds, reguardless of weapon choice, duelist is the best specilization. The +10 attack sustain works for both melee and ranged attacks and it's a fixed +10 from the start, a huge buff at level 7 that's still very nice at level 24.



Ranger, in any build, with any other spec, and with any weapon type, is the most damage additive of the 4 options but requires heavy pet micromanagement. Without it the pet won't be as effective as they could be and, worse still, if they land killing blows the party won't get any XP. If it weren't for that liability Ranger would easily be the best specilization for dexterity based ranged characters.

[TheMufflon]

tetracycloide wrote...
For all other stat builds, reguardless of weapon choice, duelist is the best specilization. The +10 attack sustain works for both melee and ranged attacks and it's a fixed +10 from the start, a huge buff at level 7 that's still very nice at level 24.

Since a melee rogue is pretty much always going to be flanking his attack bonus is already going to be high enough to hit pretty much every attack, so bonus from Dueling isn't going to make much of a difference.

Since you really don't want monsters attacking your rogue anyway the defence bonus is equally pointless.

Upset Balance is essentially a second Below the Belt, so it's generally not even worth activating.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:28 .

[tetracycloide]

Flanking is neither enough to hit every attack nor is it even always possible. Just about the only weapon and stat combination where duelist shouldn't be one of the specilizations taken is dagger/dagger cunning simply because bard songs and assassin bonus damage talents all key off of cunning. Without high cunning neither specilization offers much in the way of utility or damage.

Since you cannot gurantee nothing ever attack your rogue defense is, at worst, marginally useful.  Since there are solo areas in the game which explicitly gurantee your rogue will be attacked I'd say defense is pretty useful in those areas.

For rangers who have to contend with the additional missle defense on top of regular defense the +10 attack sustain is essential.  In a high dexterity archer build there is no better combo than duelist/ranger.  Bard would be silly, the bonuses pitiful with cunning in the teens.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:49 .

[knownastherat]

It is not only the bonus from Dueling what makes Duelist quite powerful. With enough stamina one can use Pinpoint Strike and Upset Balance to their fullest. I might make a fool of myself but from my experience Upset Balance is very good ability despite I have not seen the code or detailed describtion for it nor Below the belt. Ended up using Upset Balance as opener on bosses and tougher enemies and was under impression it works well. Why not Mark of Death instead, since it is best? Because the char was a bard ..

Either way, and as usual, "best" should be "banned" from debates about builds Play-style defines builds not statistics most of the time.

Modifié par knownastherat, 11 janvier 2010 - 06:10 .

[TheMufflon]

tetracycloide wrote...

Flanking is neither enough to hit every attack nor is it even always possible.

I've played through the game with a Duelist/Assassin and a Assassin/Bard, their hit-rates were 89% and 90% respectively. With most of my misses being in the low levels.

For rangers who have to contend with the additional missle defense on top of regular defense the +10 attack sustain is essential.  In a high dexterity archer build there is no better combo than duelist/ranger.  Bard would be silly, the bonuses pitiful with cunning in the teens.

Assuming 50 damage per arrow hit, that your attack bonus is in the range where 1 point of attack bonus corresponds to 1% hit chance and a base hit chance of 75% (which is pretty low); Dueling will increase your DPS by 5. Assuming that you have a cunning of 20 (10 base +4 for being a rogue +5 from the fade and +1 for bard), song of courage will incease your DPS by ~5.3, and it will increase the damage of each member of your party by a similar amount.

[tetracycloide]

Most of your misses were in the low levels like 7 where I already pointed out the bonus was strongest?  I'm betting the rest of the misses came during the encounters that are actually difficult as well, high dragon, flemeth, gax, revenants.  Overall miss rate is irrelevent since pretty much every rogue is going to hit white mobs 100% of the time reguardless of gear or build and even if they did miss a white mob it wouldn't matter much.  Attack is useful when you need it and a rogue needs it most in the hardest fights in the game.  Who cares if you're doing 2-4 extra damage against white mobs with song of courage if you only land 5 hits on gax for the entire encounter?

RE: Duelist vs. Bard on an archer character.  You didn't factor in the +2 dexterity and the +1 damage from duelist in your comparison.  Songs only increase damage on melee or archery party memebers, not a lot of help if you run 3 mages + the PC however, with the right party makeup, it might be worth gimping personal DPS to buff the group.

[TheMufflon]

tetracycloide wrote...

Most of your misses were in the low levels like 7 where I already pointed out the bonus was strongest?  I'm betting the rest of the misses came during the encounters that are actually difficult as well, high dragon, flemeth, gax, revenants.  Overall miss rate is irrelevent since pretty much every rogue is going to hit white mobs 100% of the time reguardless of gear or build and even if they did miss a white mob it wouldn't matter much.  Attack is useful when you need it and a rogue needs it most in the hardest fights in the game.  Who cares if you're doing 2-4 extra damage against white mobs with song of courage if you only land 5 hits on gax for the entire encounter?

Most of my misses were in the low levels, like 1-5. As in before you could get the bonus. None of the dragons seem to have a very high defence, they rely mostly on their knockback and high armor.

RE: Duelist vs. Bard on an archer character.  You didn't factor in the +2 dexterity and the +1 damage from duelist in your comparison.  Songs only increase damage on melee or archery party memebers, not a lot of help if you run 3 mages + the PC however, with the right party makeup, it might be worth gimping personal DPS to buff the group.

I did actually miss the +2 Dex and +1 Damage from Duelist, good spot. I'd still say that overall the bonus from Song of Courage is greater, and that's with the lowest possible cunning.

Also, I'm curious: Which 3 mages were you planning on taking along with your rogue PC?

[tetracycloide]

TheMufflon wrote...

Also, I'm curious: Which 3 mages were you planning on taking along with your rogue PC?

The distinction of nominal 'best' specilization does not apply to rogue party members?  Party memebers need specilizations too.  You're right though I shouldn't have said 'PC + 3 mages' i should have said '3 mage party + archer.'

Modifié par tetracycloide, 11 janvier 2010 - 07:44 .

[Addai]

I agree with banning "best" and "worst" from the discussion. Individual play style and character are most important, IMO. Having played a couple rogues now, I personally prefer Duelist and Ranger. I like a hands-on scrappy battle rather than standing back to sing. I also like to have a flexible melee attack rather than having to work on backstab position all the time- sometimes it's just not possible, for one thing. Duelist noticeably ups both your attack and your defense. Duelist + Momentum= they don't know what hit them.



As for Ranger, besides thinking it is cool (particularly for my Dalish elf where it just seemed so thematic) it adds a fourth and surprisingly strong melee fighter to your party pretty early on. Each summon has an ability or two which aids you, as well, like the wolf's Howl or spider Web.

[MGeezer]

My first rogue took the ranger specialization, because as Addai67 says, its seemed to fit the Dalish Elf background nicely (as does archery).



However, aside from role-playing, I have been very pleased with it. It essentially adds a totally replaceable tank to the party. At higher levels, the tanks even has some abilites and you can call for new ones throughout the battle (start with bear, when it goes down get a wolf, etc.)



Now some parties do not need any additional tanks, but if your party could use one, ranger is a great specialization.

[SusanStoHelit]

@Zarok

The answer you will get depends on who's giving it, as well as on their preferred playstyle, and what you want to do with your rogue.

However, I personally like Bard/Ranger for an archer using cunning/lethality. And Assassin/Bard for the dagger/dagger cunning/lethality type - if you're not going the cunning/lethality route, then I prefer Assassin/Duelist.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 janvier 2010 - 11:24 .

[wwwwowwww]

I personally prefer a cunning build Assassin/Bard once you get up in levels that combo pretty much = Death to the opposition.

[stribies]

You want to make the best use out of your pots. So dump every point into magic.

[fchopin]

Assassin\\\\duellist

Dex dex and more dex, do this and you will fear nothing in the game.

Don’t forger to put points as needed in cun and very important willpower.

Modifié par fchopin, 12 janvier 2010 - 03:24 .

[Realmzmaster]

The best specialization for a rogue is the ones you want to roleplay. Now if you are saying the best specializations for beating the game that is very subjective.

I personally like Ranger + any other rogue specialization. Also with Lelianna and Zervan I pick the ranger specialization at level 14 for them. So I will have a Ranger/Barb, Ranger/Assassin and Ranger/whatever for the PC. There is nothing like having a 7 party group. I level all the rogues to master ranger. When you can call three great bears to tank very little can stand in you way (mages included), especially if the your fourth companion is a mage (Wynne or Morrigan). Wynne is especially useful in keeping your pets alive while the other companions use range weapons.

But to each their reach and that is the fun in roleplaying.

[Haplose]

TheMufflon wrote...

Since a melee rogue is pretty much always going to be flanking his attack bonus is already going to be high enough to hit pretty much every attack, so bonus from Dueling isn't going to make much of a difference.

Since you really don't want monsters attacking your rogue anyway the defence bonus is equally pointless.

Why not? A high Dex Rogue has no issues being under attack, unless the enemies stun him. Mine had 100 Physical resist, so only autohits like Dirty Fighting or Scattershot were really an issue. And he can return the favour with his own Dirty Fighting, Riposte (with Coup-de-Grace) or Pinpoint Strikes. Seeing how his Defence was over 160, he didn't have to worry too much about getting hit with regular attacks.

And concerning the attack bonus: I've never felt that I had too much. Even with a Dex build I noticed a clear change when using Dueling. Same about a Max Str 2h build with Precise Striking and Rally. Maybe it's because I play on Nightmare, I don't know. But without buffs I still miss now and then. And fighting Revenants tends to be a whiff-fest, especialyl early on.

tetracycloide wrote...
Just about the only weapon and stat combination where duelist shouldn't
be one of the specilizations taken is dagger/dagger cunning simply
because bard songs and assassin bonus damage talents all key off of
cunning. Without high cunning neither specilization offers much in the
way of utility or damage.

Well, I found Assasin good for a high Dex build. Mark of Death works regardless of Cun, Exploit Weakness still adds a little and perhaps most importantly Feast of the Fallen keep the Stamina coming for more stuns for more Coup-de-Graces, Pinpoint Strikes, Marks, etc.
I did put some points into Cun though.

Actually I think a hybrid build may be the best. Say 40 Cunning to save on 1 Deft Hands Talent and 1 Coercion Rank, rest Dex for good accuracy and Defence.

[TheMufflon]

Haplose wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Since a melee rogue is pretty much always going to be flanking his attack bonus is already going to be high enough to hit pretty much every attack, so bonus from Dueling isn't going to make much of a difference.

Since you really don't want monsters attacking your rogue anyway the defence bonus is equally pointless.

Why not? A high Dex Rogue has no issues being under attack, unless the enemies stun him. Mine had 100 Physical resist, so only autohits like Dirty Fighting or Scattershot were really an issue. And he can return the favour with his own Dirty Fighting, Riposte (with Coup-de-Grace) or Pinpoint Strikes. Seeing how his Defence was over 160, he didn't have to worry too much about getting hit with regular attacks.

The problem isn't getting hit, it's being attacked in the first place. You can't flank someone who's attacking you, thus you will deal less damage. And since that also means fewer enemies will be targeting your tank, his Bravery bonus will be smaller.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:51 .

[Haplose]

TheMufflon wrote...
The problem isn't getting hit, it's being attacked in the first place. You can't flank someone who's attacking you, thus you will deal less damage. And since that also means fewer enemies will be targeting your tank, his Bravery bonus will be smaller.

But you can backstab them with Coup-de-Grace and Dirty Fighting, Riposte. With any number of stun/freeze/knockdown effects from other party members. Finally you can Dual-Strike autocrit them to death with Pinpoint Strikes. Between these 3 active skills you are able to cause frontal backstabs almost all the time, if your Stamina allows it (hence Feast of the Fallen is very nice). It's even better if you can get some party support.. say some Cone of Cold here and there or other CC... or some knockdown effect from a tank...

Also I'm not sure if Bravery actually depends on number of enemies targeting the character in question.

Modifié par Haplose, 13 janvier 2010 - 07:18 .

[TheMufflon]

Haplose wrote...

But you can backstab them with Coup-de-Grace and Dirty Fighting, Riposte. With any number of stun/freeze/knockdown effects from other party members. Finally you can Dual-Strike autocrit them to death with Pinpoint Strikes. Between these 3 active skills you are able to cause frontal backstabs almost all the time, if your Stamina allows it (hence Feast of the Fallen is very nice). It's even better if you can get some party support.. say some Cone of Cold here and there or other CC... or some knockdown effect from a tank...

Also I'm not sure if Bravery actually depends on number of enemies targeting the character in question.

If your enemies are stunned they arn't attacking you, so you don't need the defence. Also, Coup De Grace doesn't work with knockdown.

And yes, the effects of Bravery increase for every enemy targeting the warrior beyond the first two.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 13 janvier 2010 - 10:03 .

[Haplose]

TheMufflon wrote...

And yes, the effects of Bravery increase for every enemy targeting the warrior beyond the first two.

Targeting or in encounter?