237 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Sage]

Wulfram wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
If someone is missing lips or eyebrows, that is considered "unattractive."

People like the Mona Lisa

But she's got that "smile" which makes up for it.  That's what I'm talkin about.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 27 février 2013 - 07:15 .

[Barneyk]

Emzamination wrote...

But anyways I wouldn't want a character modeled like this whether it be the pc or a LI. She has a bit too much muscle tone for my taste, which puts a very unappealing damper on the femininity of her body.

You bring up a very interesting point.
Blair Brown brings up "peak physical condition" , yet the waists of the women are really slim without muscle tone.
The women I have seen that is in "peak physical condition" does not have those kind of slim waists, if you are in "peak physical condition" you have muscles, muscles don't make you slim like that.

That is why I find it so hypocrital and ignorant to make an argument based on "peak physical condition", that has nothing to do with it. Obviously.

At least you are very honest and direkt about your opinions and why you prefer the slimmer kind of waists.
And that is also a very big part of my objection, the "different standards of beauty" on disply all fall under what is commonly refered to as female and feminine beauty.
They all follow the same standard, with minor variations.
And that is quite a sad sight.

[Fredward]

stormhit13 wrote...

Male characters looking like that is definitely not just pandering to the female audience. It's been the standard look in all sorts of pop culture things with mostly male consumption.

It's still perpetuating an "impossible" standard though. Really modern media does this with EVERYONE. But really if we wanna argue that we're all logical thinking beings then we should all be smart enough not to give a **** about how a game/series/movie/magazine/book tells us we're suppose to look.

[Kidd]

Leoroc wrote...

I miss beards on dwarven women.

Definitely agree with this. I wish we'd get some huge, womanly beards to pride the mugs of our dear dwarven lasses! =)

[Fawx9]

What I'm hearing: Out of shape people whining that they are never portrayed in games.

[Conduit0]

You gotta love the double standards.

All male characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Perfectly fine, every ones happy.
All female characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Sexist and wrong.

Modifié par Conduit0, 27 février 2013 - 10:11 .

[Wulfram]

Conduit0 wrote...

You gotta love the double standards.

All male characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Perfectly fine, every ones happy.

I'm not happy.  I don't think the usual male body shape in RPGs is really appropriate for rogues and mages.

Modifié par Wulfram, 27 février 2013 - 10:25 .

[Leoroc]

I agree, would love a scrawny body type for my mage or rogue, I would accept that maybe we can only have one actually body size (height and proportions) to keep things cheaper, but maybe a bit less beefcakey.

[Battlebloodmage]

Conduit0 wrote...

You gotta love the double standards.

All male characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Perfectly fine, every ones happy.
All female characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Sexist and wrong.

In the concept art, I see muscular, toned, skinny, and fat (and muscular) for the males. On the female's side, they are toned in every single one of them complete with hour glass shape. I don't find the concept art to be sexist, more like disappointed that there aren't more variable in female body types. It's only sexist if men only like women with the perfect supermodel body type, there are men who like women with a bit more meat or somewhat thinner and so on; however, based on the concept art, only one standard of beauty is being applied to the females. 

[shootist70]

Barneyk wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

But anyways I wouldn't want a character modeled like this whether it be the pc or a LI. She has a bit too much muscle tone for my taste, which puts a very unappealing damper on the femininity of her body.

You bring up a very interesting point.
Blair Brown brings up "peak physical condition" , yet the waists of the women are really slim without muscle tone.
The women I have seen that is in "peak physical condition" does not have those kind of slim waists, if you are in "peak physical condition" you have muscles, muscles don't make you slim like that.

Did you watch the olympics? How many incredibly slim, muscular women competed in all kinds of events? Physically fit women don't tend to build heavy musculature unless they go on some intensive body building program.

[Conduit0]

Wulfram wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

You gotta love the double standards.

All male characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Perfectly fine, every ones happy.

I'm not happy.  I don't think the usual male body shape in RPGs is really appropriate for rogues and mages.

Although I agree, that falls outside of the point I was trying to make.

Battlebloodmage wrote...
In the concept art, I see muscular,
toned, skinny, and fat (and muscular) for the males. On the female's
side, they are toned in every single one of them complete with hour
glass shape. I don't find the concept art to be sexist, more like
disappointed that there aren't more variable in female body types. It's
only sexist if men only like women with the perfect supermodel body
type, there are men who like women with a bit more meat or somewhat
thinner and so on; however, based on the concept art, only one standard
of beauty is being applied to the females. 

The males have the same amount of variation as the females, all of the men are broad shouldered and muscular. The "skinny" elf still manages to have a six pack and visible definition in the arms and the mild pot belly and exgeratedly large arms of the dwarf(his arms are as thick as the Qunari for crying out loud) falls right in line with the females look.

[Battlebloodmage]

Conduit0 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

You gotta love the double standards.

All male characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Perfectly fine, every ones happy.

I'm not happy.  I don't think the usual male body shape in RPGs is really appropriate for rogues and mages.

Although I agree, that falls outside of the point I was trying to make.

Battlebloodmage wrote...
In the concept art, I see muscular,
toned, skinny, and fat (and muscular) for the males. On the female's
side, they are toned in every single one of them complete with hour
glass shape. I don't find the concept art to be sexist, more like
disappointed that there aren't more variable in female body types. It's
only sexist if men only like women with the perfect supermodel body
type, there are men who like women with a bit more meat or somewhat
thinner and so on; however, based on the concept art, only one standard
of beauty is being applied to the females. 

The males have the same amount of variation as the females, all of the men are broad shouldered and muscular. The "skinny" elf still manages to have a six pack and visible definition in the arms and the mild pot belly and exgeratedly large arms of the dwarf(his arms are as thick as the Qunari for crying out loud) falls right in line with the females look.

I disagree.

[Barneyk]

shootist70 wrote...

Did you watch the olympics? How many incredibly slim, muscular women competed in all kinds of events? Physically fit women don't tend to build heavy musculature unless they go on some intensive body building program.

I am not talkinga bout heavy musculature, I am talking about bacis muscle tone and lack of the kind of slim waist we see in the picture.

I am talking about in what they women in the picture are slim.
Also, boob sizes in combination with that kind of slimness and "peak physical condition".
They all represent the same standard fo beauty, trying to argue about it from an objective point of view is just plain wrong.
I am pointing out a simple fact that I feel is problematic and worth reflecting over.

[Medhia Nox]

You know - I always wondered why Sam in A Song of Ice and Fire never started losing weight after all those arduous adventures he ends up going through.

I don't mind the idea of having different phenotypes... but this is heroic fantasy which lends more toward superhero physiques.

Which is odd - because I always wondered why a man who could fly wouldn't be a fatty - but that's a whole different conversation.

I don't think it would hurt to buff up the character creator a bit - overweight doesn't have to be morbidly obese (and look up strong man competitions and you won't see thin muscular men) - thin doesn't have to be emaciated.

I'd like to see taller and shorter standards to the various races.

At any rate - Guild Wars 2 has a great character creator... and I do consider it much better than what Bioware typically provides.

As for NPCs - the range should be much greater, but still - being overweight was only common amongst the aristocracy (or wealthy middle class) pre-Industrial Revolution. So a body standard isn't the most horrible thing ever.

For me this is a situation of: "I don't care if you don't add it, but I'll praise your efforts if you decide to."

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 février 2013 - 12:06 .

[brushyourteeth]

I'm only one person, but here's my simple take:

More diversity is great, but if you can't give me diversity, if you can't give me choice, then give me the ideal. Let me be the ideal.

This game is for fun. It's a fantasy. Does it bother me that everyone is fit, trim, and ideal? I think the closest I've gotten to being unhappy was wrapped up in Wulfram's point that (specifically males, and especially mHawke) looked a little crazy with his big, beefy build as a rogue or a mage. I also wondered why the art team chose to make a chubby human male and female model for DA:O and then only use them three times.

Really, I'm not fussed about it. I don't feel objectified as a woman. I don't feel boxed in. I like looking awesome in a game. And so far the DA team has spared me the indignity of FemShep's booty jiggle (which: thank you).

I was honestly more irked by LadyHawke's girly run/floppy wrist thing than I was the shape of her torso.

If we're going to focus on diversity, please make it on ethnic diversity. It seems to me as if that would be a better place to start than "bigger feet, smaller hips, please."

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 28 février 2013 - 12:16 .

[Saibh]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Leoroc wrote...

I miss beards on dwarven women.

Definitely agree with this. I wish we'd get some huge, womanly beards to pride the mugs of our dear dwarven lasses! =)

Eh, I feel like that was more supposed to be whimsically amusing than anything else. I feel like giving short, stocky women beards is more or less a way to laugh at how ugly they are. Dwarven women are almost always, as a rule, 'ugly' by human standards in most fantasy, but I like that DA decided that dwarven women could be human-standard beautiful too. 

In any case, people like attractive characters. I think so long as BioWare tones it down or keeps it equal on the sexy department, being good-looking is fine. All of the races pictured in OP are different kinds of good looking. 

Modifié par Saibh, 28 février 2013 - 12:23 .

[ManiacG]

im in favor of anything that helps my immersion,seing everyone around me slim and moderatly pretty is kinda counterproductive, there should be fat people, there should be ugly people, and of varying skincolors be they man, woman or child.

But thats just my opinion, i could be wrong.

[CuriousArtemis]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'm only one person, but here's my simple take:

More diversity is great, but if you can't give me diversity, if you can't give me choice, then give me the ideal. Let me be the ideal.

This game is for fun. It's a fantasy. Does it bother me that everyone is fit, trim, and ideal? I think the closest I've gotten to being unhappy was wrapped up in Wulfram's point that (specifically males, and especially mHawke) looked a little crazy with his big, beefy build as a rogue or a mage. I also wondered why the art team chose to make a chubby human male and female model for DA:O and then only use them three times.

Really, I'm not fussed about it. I don't feel objectified as a woman. I don't feel boxed in. I like looking awesome in a game. And so far the DA team has spared me the indignity of FemShep's booty jiggle (which: thank you).

I was honestly more irked by LadyHawke's girly run/floppy wrist thing than I was the shape of her torso.

If we're going to focus on diversity, please make it on ethnic diversity. It seems to me as if that would be a better place to start than "bigger feet, smaller hips, please."

I highlighted my favorite parts of your post  

But I do think it is ridonkulous that the default female body has F-cup breasts. Oh come onnnnnnnnnn. (And I say this as a person with very ample bosoms haha ... NO ZEVRAN you canNOT rest your head here.)

[Giant ambush beetle]

shootist70 wrote...

Did you watch the olympics? How many incredibly slim, muscular women competed in all kinds of events? Physically fit women don't tend to build heavy musculature unless they go on some intensive body building program.

I guess you skipped the part when they showed hammer throw, javelin throw and discus throw.

Betty Heidler:



Kathrin Klaas:

Modifié par The Woldan , 28 février 2013 - 12:47 .

[cindercatz]

@craigdolphin
Science! amen. Agreed.

Not everything that exists in our culture is some leftover reminder of whatever kind of patriarchy we were supposed to be.

When it comes to different standards of what the ideal is (not basic sexual attractiveness, the cultural ideal), yeah, that changes according to common living standards, ritual practice, etc. Psychology doesn't only take biology into account, after all. The fact that the women all take on this slightly under-sexualized, more muscled, robust look and men take on this exaggerated, v-line, even more ripped look (as opposed to fit with an underlying fat layer for both sexes, more or less, depending on gender, race, and species in DA), that's also our cultural bias they're meeting. It's the feminist action hero, with ripped biceps and less ripped, smooth midsection but no pooch, and the modern adonis male proportions, not too big or too small, very clean and shiny and up-right, military posture style. The unisex superhero proportions, modern idealized western body images. Not the male ideals or the female ideals, but the mainstream action hero standard. If anything, DA leans pretty heavily feminist.

Personally, I'd love for there to be a variety of body styles across all characters, and I think it's certainly doable, but I'd like to see some other more naturalistic things with the basic standard model that those character model drawings represent. So characters whose particular group's family has lived in colder climates for a few thousand years, for instance, you've probably got a wider waist (before considering fat), more of a fat layer over your heavier musculature, straighter sloped noses, relatively lighter skin. On average, your group is going to look more adapted to cold weather. If the character's family's recent evolution is in the desert plains, you've probably got not much of a subdermal fat layer, relatively darker skin, more open nostrils, narrower frame, on average. More adapted to an arid, hotter environment. Everything evolves to fit its environment.

And then of course there are personalities and exceptions to the rules that make all of that moot, different levels of activity, different ideals of fitness apart from day to day labor. I love the idea of Orlesian nobles being somewhat fatter than peasants that's been suggested. So you could have varying standards both to biology and to society represented if you wanted to really go as far as you could with it.

And for the other species, elves hopefully will be lithe and athletic, not waifish, being predatory omniverous forest nomads. Dwarves eyes started to stand out a little more in DA2, and that makes sense. They should probably be stocky, but not fat, because their environment is hot and they've worked rock and metal as many generations back as they remember. So, being from a hot environment working all that magma, the smaller waist would probably make sense for both genders, relatively. But wait, they've had castes for a long time and tend to promote a consistent family line within castes. So maybe the merchant caste is a little bit leaner than the warrior caste, the warrior caste leaner than the smith caste, etc., on average. DA2 already kind of accentuated dwarven eyes, and I think that's a good direction I hope they keep. And Qunari Kossith are basically deer people, or ram people, whichever, that can snap through muzzles, so maybe both sexes should be even more robust and less idealized humanesque.

Really, the more variation, and variation with purpose, whatever that is, the better. But that's expensive in a lot of different developement areas, so if we get largely repeating body models again for most minor npcs, I understand, and the western idealized standard doesn't particularly bother me so long as the game doesn't objectify one gender over the other too much. I don't see that DA has done that yet or will any time soon, so I think looking at it through that prism is a non-issue, really. Just don't sap all the sexy out. DA's too muted as is.

edit: typos, tired :-/

Modifié par cindercatz, 28 février 2013 - 01:33 .

[Barneyk]

The Woldan wrote...

I guess you skipped the part when they showed hammer throw, javelin throw and discus throw.

You don't even have to go there:

Susanna Kallur, 100 metre hurdles:


Look at the boob to waist ratio and muscle definition.
That is a generalization of female "peak physical condition" that is way more accurate than what we see in the pic in my OP if you wanna use that argument.

I really find it troubling that someone claims that an hour-glass figure = peak physical condition.
You are only fooling yourself if you actualy argue that.

Modifié par Barneyk, 28 février 2013 - 02:39 .

[Barneyk]

And look, I wouldn't see a problem worth posting about if it wasn't for the notion that its representing different standards of beauty.
They are all quite reasonable and not exaggerated to a point where I would object to it and it is a representation that is better than in the vast majority of games.
It could be better though, but I wouldn't have reacted to it if it wasn't for that comment.

Then when I read Blair Browns reasoning I find even more reason to bring this to attention.

Trying to justify the idealization of the hour-glass figure with talks about "peak physical condition" and a simple statement that "women have boobs" and then picking out other things that is different is such a classical example of self-justification.

They are all representing the same standard of beauty where the ideal female body is an hour-glass figure.
The qunari is taller and has wider shoulders, the dwarf is shorter and wider, but the same standard applies for all of them.

The thread is also full of ignorant comments about completely unsupported hypothesis about evolutionary biology and other nonsense that is just plain wrong and they follow the same pattern as the comment about peak physical condition, they are justifications for reproducing something as truth when it is fact is simply an opinion.

Of course it is just not an opinion, it is the ideal image in your society, so it is also a justification for that, which is really wrong and dangerous.

And yes, there are many other details one could focus on and the male characters have their kind of representation to that can be problematic when looked at from certain perspectives.

But compared to the representation and reinforcement of the hour-glass figure as a female ideal they are very small and if I can't even get a point through about something that obvious and simple I really can't motivate myself to get into lesser issues.

[Zkyire]

Conduit0 wrote...

You gotta love the double standards.

All male characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Perfectly fine, every ones happy.
All female characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Sexist and wrong.

Indeed, I've seen that argument pop up a lot on the BSN.

Good looking female characters are for male gamers -  because they're pervs, essentially.

Good looking male characters are for.. male gamers - to play into their male power fantasy (I kid you not).

There's no winning on this board.

[mauro2222]

Blair Brown wrote...

When I look at this I also think to myself about the world of thedas, it's harsh, most people do hard manual labour all day, war is constant, food is very healthy, exercise almost constant (theres no cars).  So most people would be in peak physical condition imo.

What?

[Plaintiff]

Zkyire wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

You gotta love the double standards.

All male characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Perfectly fine, every ones happy.
All female characters designed to appeal to the normal standards of beauty = Sexist and wrong.

Indeed, I've seen that argument pop up a lot on the BSN.

Good looking female characters are for male gamers -  because they're pervs, essentially.

Good looking male characters are for.. male gamers - to play into their male power fantasy (I kid you not).

There's no winning on this board.

Well, the second statement is true. The male protagonists as depicted on the covers of videogames typically do not fall under the established Western conventions of what a "sexy man" looks like, and there is little to no emphasis on their sexual characteristics, unlike art that features females. There's also the issue of active/passive posing to consider.

That is not to say that men are never seuxally objectified or that the issue is less serious. They are, and it is, but it's not happening in the box art of videogames. If you want to see an example of the male form being tailored to the female (or gay male) gaze, then the place to look is in clothing stores and catalogues, not on the covers of videogames.

The fact is that, despite the mountains of proof indicating the contrary, the assumption in videogame marketing is that the audience consists almost entirely of men. So in msot cases, they're not going to use advertising tactics intended to target women.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 février 2013 - 04:52 .