237 réponses à ce sujet

[cindercatz]

Neoleviathan wrote...

Thinking about it some more, besides design limits I can see why they'd keep to a certain type. If you think about elves for example, if they moved to represent them in a realistic way. The appearances of many city elves would probably be pretty horrific, something like that would change the tone of the game completely. I'm sure in some ways that has also effected both men and women have been depicted so far. With Origins especially, you'd just feel different about a noble, an elf, or even a class like a rouge if everyone looked closer to reality. Imagine starting out an origin & seeing the terrible reality of the people around you. How would you feel? Also how it would effect clothing and armor. The thread's been pretty focused with bodies, things like dress and language also fit the topic. Maybe it doesn't really have to be taken in a way that suggest some catering to a stereotype.

Honestly, if it were possible given resources, that would be amazing. You'd feel more like the politics and prejudices were more grounded in reality; it'd be a lot more immersive. Y'know, if you were poor, you'd feel more poor, maybe sympathize with the upper classes less. If you were nobility, you'd feel more, oi what's the word, detached? Priveledged? You get my drift. Organizations like The Chantry's charity programs and their centrality to human society would take on more urgency and feel more personal, and provide more of a contrast to their less compassionate and less pious activities. Everything would feel just that more real. It'd be a great boon to Dragon Age, I think.

[Neoleviathan]

cindercatz wrote...

Neoleviathan wrote...

Thinking about it some more, besides design limits I can see why they'd keep to a certain type. If you think about elves for example, if they moved to represent them in a realistic way. The appearances of many city elves would probably be pretty horrific, something like that would change the tone of the game completely. I'm sure in some ways that has also effected both men and women have been depicted so far. With Origins especially, you'd just feel different about a noble, an elf, or even a class like a rouge if everyone looked closer to reality. Imagine starting out an origin & seeing the terrible reality of the people around you. How would you feel? Also how it would effect clothing and armor. The thread's been pretty focused with bodies, things like dress and language also fit the topic. Maybe it doesn't really have to be taken in a way that suggest some catering to a stereotype.

Honestly, if it were possible given resources, that would be amazing. You'd feel more like the politics and prejudices were more grounded in reality; it'd be a lot more immersive. Y'know, if you were poor, you'd feel more poor, maybe sympathize with the upper classes less. If you were nobility, you'd feel more, oi what's the word, detached? Priveledged? You get my drift. Organizations like The Chantry's charity programs and their centrality to human society would take on more urgency and feel more personal, and provide more of a contrast to their less compassionate and less pious activities. Everything would feel just that more real. It'd be a great boon to Dragon Age, I think.

I agree, completely. I think Bioware is fully capable of a game like that, & it would something to experiance. Some films are that way. I think the problem would be that allot of people might not get on board with it & that the game would be left with a smaller but perhaps more devoted fanbase (making this assumption based on the way certain films have their following), & the devs themselves might not be comfortable with taking a story in that direction. It would definently be a new territory for games to move into, don't think there are too many that have. Maybe we'll see a game like that with the next gen.

[Plaintiff]

Oberkaiser wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The fact is that, despite the mountains of proof indicating the contrary, the assumption in videogame marketing is that the audience consists almost entirely of men. So in msot cases, they're not going to use advertising tactics intended to target women.

The "assumption"? Bubba, that's a fact. The infamous "47%" statistic that gets thrown around here a lot fails to mention that it includes casual games like Farmville and Angry Birds. Women who play proper games are so few they might as well be nonexistent as far as marketing is concerned.

Which means there's a massive untapped market that the industry is ignoring.

Women are not genetically pre-programmed to dislike videogames. It's an issue of social conditioning, and one that could be easily overcome if the effort was made.

[Plaintiff]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Blair Brown wrote...

When I look at this I also think to myself about the world of thedas, it's harsh, most people do hard manual labour all day, war is constant, food is very healthy, exercise almost constant (theres no cars).  So most people would be in peak physical condition imo.

Most people are poor peasants and thus don't have access to much food, sparkling clean drinking water, proper hygeine and medicine. Repetitive strain injuries from having to do so much manual labour, bad backs, bad knees, etc. Look at any third world country today and look at the average person's lifespan, health and general condition. That's what the majority of people in Dragon Age would look like.

They'd be far from peak physical condition. They'd be.. peasants.

Yep.  I spent a few years of my childhood growing up on a small Portuguese farming island, Terceira.  The people there worked hard and were poor.  Since it was a volcanic island, the most common building material was rock.  So, fences and pens were all stacked rock.  Often terraced into the sides of hills.  Transportation was on foot along coblestoned streets.  The standard drink was wine (historical note: people didn't drink much water because of parasites; alcohol kills parasites.  So, most water had alcohol added to it. In England it was Gin; Portugal and Spain, wine.)  Between maintaining the fences, tending the cattle, plowing the fields with oxen, etc, the people were strong.  But thin.  Muscles were wirey, not body builder ripped.  Of course, the..errr...matronly women were fat as well.  Why?  Because in poor cultures being fat is a sign of wealth.  You get fat from eating fatty meat; you get fatty meat from tended cattle, which requires MONEY.  Poor people, on the other hand, rarely ate meat, instead subsisting on grains and legumes. 

So, let's have realistic NPCs.  Fat noblewomen, wirey, filthy peasants, and scabby companions from picking nits in their off time.  

Heh, one thing I noticed from the DA games is everyone has brownish teeth.  At least THAT is sorta realistic.  I say sorta because everyone has TO MANY!  Guess healing potions have calcium and flouride....<LOL>.

What's realisitic for our own world is not necessarily what's realisitic for Thedas. We don't know the nutritional content of their food or how easy meat is to procure, or how much/what kinds of exercise they get.

[Giant ambush beetle]

Plaintiff wrote...

Women are not genetically pre-programmed to dislike videogames. It's an issue of social conditioning, and one that could be easily overcome if the effort was made.

Maybe if Bioware put more fashion shoes into their games they would get more popular with the womenz.

It would totally work.

[Volus Warlord]

The Woldan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Women are not genetically pre-programmed to dislike videogames. It's an issue of social conditioning, and one that could be easily overcome if the effort was made.

Maybe if Bioware put more fashion shoes into their games they would get more popular with the womenz.

It would totally work.

Then why isn't Saint's Row more popular with the laideez?

[Plaintiff]

The Woldan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Women are not genetically pre-programmed to dislike videogames. It's an issue of social conditioning, and one that could be easily overcome if the effort was made.

Maybe if Bioware put more fashion shoes into their games they would get more popular with the womenz.

It would totally work.

Women aren't genetically preprogrammed to like fashion or shoes either.

[BubbleDncr]

My opinion - I'm a girl, and I like to make my female characters (and male characters too, for that matter) good-looking. Which the Bioware concept designs fall into the category of, by most Westerners' standpoint. If, for instance, dwarf females were fat with pancake breasts or something, I would be less inclined to ever create a dwarf character.

Female members of the species being "good-looking" by my standards makes me excited to create a character of that race. Them being "ugly" by my standards makes me just not ever want to play as one. Making them overly-sexualized (which Bioware does not), is the only thing that is offensive to me, unless they also overly sexualize the male characters.

[Shazzie]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Woldan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Women are not genetically pre-programmed to dislike videogames. It's an issue of social conditioning, and one that could be easily overcome if the effort was made.

Maybe if Bioware put more fashion shoes into their games they would get more popular with the womenz.

It would totally work.

Women aren't genetically preprogrammed to like fashion or shoes either.

I'm female. I've been into video games since Pong was a big thing. Yeah. That long ago. And no one could ever call Pong 'genderized', or something I'd be socially conditioned to disregard, due to it being the freaking dawn of gaming and all that.

When I was in high school, when we'd have BBS meetups (ah the days before the WWW as we know it), nearly half of the local BBS sysops were female, as was the crowd of users that would show up. Not quite half female, no, but not so much under half that it looked like a shockingly tiny minority.

And at the arcade in the mall, while there were plenty of giggling girls around who weren't there for actual gaming (they were usually the ones there for fashion and shoes), there were also plenty of girls there FOR the games (and maybe also for fashion or shoes, or maybe, like me, NOT).

Something happened over the many years since that time. I never left gaming. None of my female friends ever quit gaming, not entirely, even those that had kids- in fact, it's something they share WITH their kids. But gaming kept feeling more and more, well, genderized. It's uncomfortable sometimes. But I still love games.


I do have a question regarding the picture in the OP, the 'different standards of beauty' picture. Why are the human and elven females wearing invisible high heels? And why is that a common thing for artists to portray? Women don't stand naturally with their heels hovering several inches off the ground. If we're bare footed, then our feet will be flat on the ground. We won't be standing tippy-toe for no reason. To pose it that way is absolutely ridiculous. (I've seen a lot of artists that seem to have no idea how to draw women without the 'high heel effect'. It's something that becomes annoying once you start to notice it over, and over, and over...argh.)

[cindercatz]

@NeoLeviathan
Hopefully we'll get that game this generation, agreed. I always approach the DA setting in that way intellectually anyway, but for now it is definitely incongruous with a lot of what we see on the screen and with the relative importance given to those kinds of things in the narrative. So I'd definitely like to see it, and I also think the storytelling would better reflect the conceptual situation if the visuals better reinforced it. I think the collaborative process would benefit.

Shazzie wrote...

I do have a question regarding the picture in the OP, the 'different standards of beauty' picture. Why are the human and elven females wearing invisible high heels? And why is that a common thing for artists to portray? Women don't stand naturally with their heels hovering several inches off the ground. If we're bare footed, then our feet will be flat on the ground. We won't be standing tippy-toe for no reason. To pose it that way is absolutely ridiculous. (I've seen a lot of artists that seem to have no idea how to draw women without the 'high heel effect'. It's something that becomes annoying once you start to notice it over, and over, and over...argh.)

Nice post, but to answer your question: It's just gesture. As an artist that's done character concept and model sheets myself, you want the character to be interesting to look at, and you want the design to be practically useful, so it's a way to change up their standing posture. There's likely to be heels in the game, at least for human nobles and elvhen servants of those human nobles, so you want the character sheet to show kind of how the character might look in those heels, in an interesting way. You also have the characters height and relative size compared to the other characters on the sheet. This kind of drawing is meant to present as a baseline, if it's approved, that you can then build on as you further develope the character. That's why they're all in some version of skin tight underclothes, too.

Modifié par cindercatz, 02 mars 2013 - 04:26 .

[PizzaThe Hutt]

I think Dragon's dogma did a decent job at body customization for the Arisen character. Having some sort of body customization option isn't impossible. However, it would depend on what direction DA3 wants to go into and what they have on their plate already. While it would be nice to see some sort of body slider for PC customization, we'll only know what DA3 has to offer once we get more info.

[lady_v23]

Looking at this.. I kinda want a female qunari to be the LI for my fem character.

[karushna5]

Actually my father raised me to dislike heels from an early age, much to my mothers grief, and I naturally stand on my tiptoes even when I run, something they say I have been doing since I could walk, although put me in actual heels for one minute and I would shake them off, too painful.

I feel the different women are beautiful in many different ways. The dwarf is rounderand short, the Kossith(because who knows if she is Qunari or Tal Vashoth or Vashoth) is muscular and tall, the elves are er...flat chested and very thin,

The men are also very good looking, although the picture of the male dwarf doesn't as much fit in with the rest precisely because he isn't fit and at the same level as the others. Elf is masculine while still being very petite, Qunari are big and manage to carry a great deal of muscle while still being regal...height AND Muscle works well.

[hitenchi]

Blair Brown wrote...


- The overly broad shoulders of the male dwarf, barrel chest, small height.

When I look at this I also think to myself about the world of thedas, it's harsh, most people do hard manual labour all day, war is constant, food is very healthy, exercise almost constant (theres no cars).  So most people would be in peak physical condition imo.

I've seen this picture before and I like it a lot.

Also, women have boobs, I don't think any in that picture are overly sexualized or completly out of wack.

And finally, it's exploring the different standards of beauty between the races, which i've highlighted above.

A point to make is that most the models in this case are athletically toned, especially the Quanri woman, which is not particularly what you would expect from hard labour. The models show people who are physically fit, not necessarily people who spent lots of time doing hard labour or training for war. I Would like to see varying body types especially from the nobles of orelias to the poor.

[Giant ambush beetle]

Shazzie wrote...
To pose it that way is absolutely ridiculous. (I've seen a lot of artists that seem to have no idea how to draw women without the 'high heel effect'. It's something that becomes annoying once you start to notice it over, and over, and over...argh.)

Yeah I agree, it looks plain stupid, but women often pose like that in fashion catalogs etc. when they're barefoot to make their legs look a bit longer.

[Megakoresh]

simfamSP wrote...

Can you guys just let this feminist bull**** go. Men are muscular, women are lithe. End. Of. Story. Would it be cool to have a culture that have wacky hair-styles like the Centuri in Babylon 5 (was is Cenutri? Anyway, Londo's race) yes, it would. Would it be cool to have a culture loosley based on various African tribes? Yes, it would.

But can we please, PLEASE, stop making an issue on something that *isn't* an issue. The entire reason it's a 'thing' is because people just can't stop *talking* about it.

Jesus Christ! Talk about double-standards ><

This kind of attitude requires people actually caring about the game being good, which most of them don't.
But you can have a cookie from me, you've earned it!

[Sjpelke]

Have not read the whole thread so excuse me if this has been mentioned before.

I know that it is taking up resources to do this, but overall all the men and women of every race look exactly alike body wise. There is no difference in how their body is shaped at all. The only thing you can distinguish them from each other is their face and/or hair. No difference in body height or anything else for that matter. Not all male dwarves fg. should be the same height for that matter.

As for the consept art and the anatomy that is shown there that is something that will not be shown for most part as most races are fully covered by clothing. Differentiation in clothing which could be wider and differ in length could change the view to that. Wearing cloaks could do some for that too.

[Nokkela]

Bleary eyed and tired from sleep deprivation but having skimmed/read most (most!) of the posts in this thread, I have to ask...why has no one brought up that there are basically three body types: mesomorphic, endomorphic and ectomorphic and that people of all shapes and sizes are usually made up of a combination of the three? While I will agree that the picture uses mesomorphic as a baseline for every last one of the races pictured (likely to simplify things in terms of modeling, animation, cutscenes, etc) Elves, for instance, tend more toward ectomorphic (thinner shoulders and hips, your general "waifish" look) and the Dwarves tend more toward endomorphic (rounder, more barrel shaped). Human and Qunari/Kossith seem to have gone for straight up mesomorph with the only differentiation being in the amount of muscle they possess.

People in the world do vary in shape and size much more drastically than pictured here but as a hero archtype, the logical assumption would be that said hero would be in some semblance of "shape." A decent fitness level can be assumed based around all the adventuring, lugging gear around, etc. I imagine it is easier to base ALL body types in a game around the hero's simply for the sake of cost effectiveness. Through all this babbling, I suppose the point I was trying to make was that there is a lot of difference between the four races while still holding it to one basic body shape for the sake of simplicity. People are too busy focusing on the slender waist and "big" boobs to actually see any of the differences, it seems.

I would love to see some sort of body slider in the game but I have no knowledge of whether or not that is doable in terms of what they plan for the new game. /end sleep deprived, confused babble

*Edited to include that the different body types are decided based on tendancy to gain/lose fat/muscle and metabolism and probably something else I have forgotten. /end confused babble again

Modifié par lady syth, 03 mars 2013 - 07:46 .

[Barneyk]

Megakoresh wrote...

This kind of attitude requires people actually caring about the game being good, which most of them don't.
But you can have a cookie from me, you've earned it!

I have no idea what you are trying to say with this.
But I feel pretty certain that you are dead wrong.

Care to explain your point a bit more?

[Duster_Brosca]

It might be more costly and whatever, but a bit of variation would be nice. Anyone remember the Zero Punctuation review for DA2 when Yahtzee jokes that the one body type for all means that Hawke's mum has the curvaceous breasts of a table dancer? Maybe splash out a bit more on types. People are not one size fits all, especially not the middle aged mums of three children.

I was always gutted my Two Handed Greatsword wielding FemWarden/FemHawke was built like an underwear model when she should have been buff as all Hell. She worked OUT.
Also, tiny, frail looking elf women with cleavage for miles is just not on. Really. You can't make a race of women who weigh about 80lbs and it's all in their breasts.
Also, to balance out, maybe male mages shouldn't be as muscular as male warriors, considering they don't do much physical work. Maybe guys want to be a bit chubbier than brawny? But I dig cuddly guys, so that might be bias.

[sunnydxmen]

So you want the other species to be ugly inferior to others.

[metatheurgist]

Duster_Brosca wrote...
Also, to balance out, maybe male mages shouldn't be as muscular as male warriors, considering they don't do much physical work. Maybe guys want to be a bit chubbier than brawny? But I dig cuddly guys, so that might be bias.

I seriously doubt any adventurers would be chubby. Weeks of constant moving would burn off excess fat, they might not be muscular but they'd be toned. Then again I also doubt anyone in their right mind would adventure in a robe but that also seems popular. Just how did Hurley manage to maintain that weight on that Island? Just another of the many things that will never be explained.

[Duster_Brosca]

sunnydxmen wrote...

So you want the other species to be ugly inferior to others.

Different races to have different ethnic features that are celebrated within their own cultures and appreciated on their own merits is ugly and therefore inferior now? Just saying unattractive=inferior is a bit weird. Clarify?

[Medhia Nox]

@metatheurgist: Well - if you look at all the strongest men in the world - a great many of them are "fat". Of course - it's muscle under a fat padding - but they don't look at all like superheroes (well - maybe the hulk).

And there are different types of muscle - gym muscle is often blow up muscle. No real strength at all.

Laborers like farmers would be the musculature of many adventurers (at least the fighter types) and that often appears average though it is actually extraordinarily strong - while track and field/gymnasts would be the roguish build - and those mages really should be unhealthy.

I didn't see any exercise room in the Circle tower in Origins.

[Duster_Brosca]

metatheurgist wrote...

Duster_Brosca wrote...
Also, to balance out, maybe male mages shouldn't be as muscular as male warriors, considering they don't do much physical work. Maybe guys want to be a bit chubbier than brawny? But I dig cuddly guys, so that might be bias.

I seriously doubt any adventurers would be chubby. Weeks of constant moving would burn off excess fat, they might not be muscular but they'd be toned. Then again I also doubt anyone in their right mind would adventure in a robe but that also seems popular. Just how did Hurley manage to maintain that weight on that Island? Just another of the many things that will never be explained.

Big warriors exist   Volstagg ruled