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[melkathi]

LostScout wrote...

Leliana seems pretty open minded to me. Male, female, elf, dwarf or human she doesn't care. Give her the right gifts and chat her up. She's willing to look past your exterior and focus on what's important: gift giving and a silver tongue.

I felt Leiliana to be a very insecure person, despite her skills and looks. She is drawn to the strong people in her life, the ones she admires and looks up to. First she loves Majorlaine, her mentor. And it is not a relationship of equality. She loves Majorlaine and aspires to be as much like her as she can. Until she is betrayed. A betrayal which leads to torture (and I for one think it can be safely assumed rape).
She hides in the Chantry. And she needed that time. She doesn't just hide from Majorlaine, but from the world in general.
And then she has a vision and finds you: a Grey Warden, hunted by the most powerfull man in Ferelden, one of the few to survive Ostagar and also the survivor who has taken all the horror's in their stride. You take a handfull of companions and lead them all across the country, gaining support wherever you go, against all odds.
So Leiliana begins to admire you, look up to you and for her those feelings lead to love, just as they had done in Orlais.



That's my take anyway (bioware writers should feel more than free to jump in and correct me )

[Sylvius the Mad]

She's upbeat, but she's not naïve. That's what makes her positivity not annoying.

[Avaraen]

melkathi wrote...

I felt Leiliana to be a very insecure person, despite her skills and looks. She is drawn to the strong people in her life, the ones she admires and looks up to.

Many people are drawn to those who are strong; if you're drawn to those weaker than yourself, you want ... what? To dominate them or protect them? Measurements of equality are subjective, unless two people are absolutely 100% identical. Leliana's character has strengths of her own; she stands behind her convictions even when challenged or ridiculed, is willing to face darkspawn and other evils head-on, and - although she took some time to recover - has not continued to hide away from the world, wallowing in self-pity, as a result of torture and Marjolaine's betrayal. She'll even willingly walk into a prison probably much like the one she escaped from in Orlais, with nothing more than a mabari by her side, to rescue the PC.

Sure, the character has some insecurities, especially when it comes to forming emotional/romantic attachments (wouldn't you, after what Marjolaine did?), but I don't think that makes for a weak character who only places the PC on a hero's pedestal. Also, there are circumstances in which Leliana can be provoked to attack or leave the PC forever, which I don't think is a sign of weakness or subservience.

On the OP topic of racism, the character may be ignorant in her impressions of races, but at least she's willing to think about things when the PC points out her prejudices... which is more than can be said of many people in the real world, heh.

Modifié par Avaraen, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:25 .

[JosieJ]

SuperMedbh wrote...

I though Liliana's attitude towards my elf character was very realistic-- the "elves are prized servants" line, to which the answer is "like a prized racehorse" or some such. It's benign racism, much like the "oh, black people are just so musical". The person saying that honestly thinks they're being positive. They're not bad people, just ignorant.

This.  What keeps her from being irretrievably racist is that if you call her on that attitude, she'll admit she was wrong and change.

Just one more of those little things the devs threw in that make the world they created more realistic. It definitely resonated with me (I'm black and have run into this attitude more times than I can count), and I appreciated it.

[wwwwowwww]

Playing an elf I never had an issue with her

[SusanStoHelit]

Her racism isn't a problem for me, she's open to being show a different PoV after all. It's her religiosity that I don't like. I like her just fine, she's almost always in my party unless I'm a rogue myself, but I wish she'd drop the Chantry crap - at least if you 'harden' her.

[Godak]

Leliana isn't racist...she stereotypes out of ignorance. Once she gets to know an elf/dwarf, she is no longer as naive. If she was truly a hateful person, that wouldn't be the case.

[Realmzmaster]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Her racism isn't a problem for me, she's open to being show a different PoV after all. It's her religiosity that I don't like. I like her just fine, she's almost always in my party unless I'm a rogue myself, but I wish she'd drop the Chantry crap - at least if you 'harden' her.

Why does she have to drop what she believes in? Just because you harden a person does not toally make them change their world view.
Leliana is not racist. Leliana is ignorant. The only exposure she has to other races is as  prized servants (in the case of the elves). The only dwarves she may have encountered are the surface dwarves which have come to the surface to work and live or were driven out because of being castless or due to undesirable circumstances (escaping from jail)
She is open to learning about the different races and comes to the acknowledgement that her views about different races have been wrong.
A true racist holds on to their sterotypes even when presented a mountain of evidence to the contrary.
Actually this discussion belongs in campaign spoilers.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 12 janvier 2010 - 04:43 .

[Lenimph]

Oh yes she is totally racist thats why she remembered that song passed on to her by an elf and sings it to my Dalish warden. Thats why she holds so much interest in asking question about others, not because she wants to learn more about them to respect them properly. That totally makes her racist why did I not see that before? 

I shall be serious now and say as first playing through as a Dalish I had no issues with Leliana infact I enjoyed her quite throughly, every curve and so on.  If you pick the prized horse option she quickly appologizes.  She doesn't even come close to some of the people at Ostagar...

And I'm quite smitten with shoes... but mostly furry boots which is what Leliana dislikes I wish there was an option like "but what of foots made out of the finest fur" but no...

Modifié par Lenimph, 12 janvier 2010 - 06:53 .

[SusanStoHelit]

I didn't say I didn't like Leliana - she's almost always in my party. But she is racist. I don't know about where you live, but where I live it's racist to think people from different 'races' are different from you and yours. Hatred need not be involved. It often isn't. It's demeaning, patronising comments like the beautiful, good dancers thing. It's racist, and that's the way she was raised, but she gets past it - which was kinda my point.



And I don't expect her to change her religious views or her religion - I just want her to stop rubbing my face in them. 9 characters so far, and even those who were human and raised in the chantry don't agree with it or it's teachings. So, her beliefs are hers and fine and dandy. And she can mention them in conversation. But 'maker this' and 'maker' that every time she opens her mouth is just too much - especially from a bardic assassin and spy.

[SirHederick]

Well said,

she's ingnorant about other races until she learns more about them (as stated), she asks questions about other party members while travelling,  and she shows care and respect.   I often stop just to listen to party members conversations, some of them can be quite amusing.

[quote]SusanStoHelit wrote...

Her racism isn't a problem for me, she's open to being show a different PoV after all. It's her religiosity that I don't like. I like her just fine, she's almost always in my party unless I'm a rogue myself, but I wish she'd drop the Chantry crap - at least if you 'harden' her. [/quote]

Why does she have to drop what she believes in? Just because you harden a person does not toally make them change their world view.
Leliana is not racist. Leliana is ignorant. The only exposure she has to other races is as  prized servants (in the case of the elves). The only dwarves she may have encountered are the surface dwarves which have come to the surface to work and live or were driven out because of being castless or due to undesirable circumstances (escaping from jail)
She is open to learning about the different races and comes to the acknowledgement that her views about different races have been wrong.
A true racist holds on to their sterotypes even when presented a mountain of evidence to the contrary.
Actually this discussion belongs in campaign spoilers.[/quote]

[Lughsan35]

mousestalker wrote...

Song for the posters above.

Yup its a survival mechanism so you can sum up stuff coming at you at a glance and have a small idea of where things may need to go...

[OlG-fr]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I didn't say I didn't like Leliana - she's almost always in my party. But she is racist. I don't know about where you live, but where I live it's racist to think people from different 'races' are different from you and yours. Hatred need not be involved. It often isn't. It's demeaning, patronising comments like the beautiful, good dancers thing. It's racist, and that's the way she was raised, but she gets past it - which was kinda my point.

I don't know where you live, but apparently it's a place where people have a racist envision of the world.
DAO is a fantasy game with different races, in the real world humans are not dogs, we are all part of the same race, the human race. True there were another race around here but alas it died eons ago, leaving us as the sole race of our species.

So when you think of people as a different race than yours because they have a different color or whatever you have a racist approach, Leliana not really, dwarves, elves and humans really belong to different races.

[Realmzmaster]

Actually in the fanatsy world, dwarves and elves are different races, The races in DA are humans, dwarves and elves, Unlike the real world where all the ethnic groups are descended from the same stock. No where in DA does it state that everyone came from the same stock. In the real world there is only one race (human race). There are different ethnic groups and cultures, but we are all biologically the same with variations in different characteristics.

So Leliana is not a racist, but ignorant of the races. Her lack of knowledge gives her racist views. There is a quote that goes:

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you pour on it, the more it will contract."

Bigots and racists do not change when the light of education about the races pours in. They remain closed minded and recede into their bigotry and/or racism.

Leliana is willing to learn and change replacing ignorance with knowledge.

As far as her background of being a bardic assassin and spy, the idea of redemption is to be able to put the former life behind and move on.

I am not yet the person I want to be, but I am no longer the person I use to be. Leliana is that transtition state in getting to where she wants to be as we all are. Also Leliana does not totally believe in the Chantry's teachings. She believes in the Maker. She simply reminds me of people who I meet in life who are firm in their beliefs and wish to share them. That annoys some people. I like the fact that the writers included all the different facets of real life in their fantasy world.

[nubbers666]

stribies wrote...

At least she's a lesbian!

that explains her trying to sneak in my tent heheh sorry couldnt resist^_^