204 réponses à ce sujet

[NDAv]

Troll-baby wrote...

I think all this talk about straight/gay/bi whatever as a label for the various characters is moot.

As in life, I think it's presumptious and limiting to pigeon-hole anyone based on a perception of their sexual preference.

Why you call it sexual preference? Did anyone actually choose to be gay?

[Maria Caliban]

PetrosS wrote...

If you think about it, there are no gay characters in Dragon Age at all (except for the PC).

Hespith, the poor thing.

[Maria Caliban]

NDAv wrote...

Why you call it sexual preference? Did anyone actually choose to be gay?

Because sexual preference and orientation are two phrases English speakers use when talking about the combination of behaviors, attraction, and identity that make up straightness, gayness, biness, queerness, etc.

You seem to think that the word 'preference' implies something is a choice, that's not correct. In fact, it means a predisposition.

[PetrosS]

Maria Caliban wrote...

NDAv wrote...

Why you call it sexual preference? Did anyone actually choose to be gay?

Because sexual preference and orientation are two phrases English speakers use when talking about the combination of behaviors, attraction, and identity that make up straightness, gayness, biness, queerness, etc.

You seem to think that the word 'preference' implies something is a choice, that's not correct. In fact, it means a predisposition.

Quite an interesting interpretation of the word 'preference' that I've never seen anywhere before, but I will not challenge how you prefer to interpret that word.

The fact is that I've defended myself and others all my life against the prejudice (if you prefer) of interpreting the word 'preference' as 'a choice' rather than a 'predisposition'.

'Predisposition': another ambiguously interpreted word, which it's most common interpretation comes to mean 'that the environment played a role to someone's preference'.

I'm not saying that this is what you mean at all; how could I know anyway.  All I'm saying is that those two words are most commonly not used in the way you interpret them above and believe me when I say that most people will consider the use of those words by anyone of a different sexual orientation than the 'norm' as an acceptance of their view on things.

So forgive me if I sound a bit preachy, but I just felt I had to say something for those of us who try to live in this world unable to have our words interpreted the way we want them or constantly having to explain them (another form of belittling people) because our definitions are different than the 'norm'.

[Abriael_CG]

Yes, you do sound a bit preachy, and a quite a bit oversensitive too. last I heard this was a thread about the possibility of seeing homosexual relationships in DA:A, not about homosexuality in general. I don't really think this is the right place to discuss such a topic.

[Darkemorrow]

Maria Caliban wrote...

PetrosS wrote...

If you think about it, there are no gay characters in Dragon Age at all (except for the PC).

Hespith, the poor thing.

Possibly Marjolaine too... Leliana hinted that they had some kind of relationship at one point.

And I have a sneaking suspicion that Wade and Herren are more than just "business partners"

[Maria Caliban]

PetrosS wrote...

The fact is that I've defended myself and others all my life against the prejudice (if you prefer) of interpreting the word 'preference' as 'a choice' rather than a 'predisposition'.

Given that straight, gay, and bisexual are all sexual preferences, if someone decided to interpret the term as meaning a choice, it couldn't be a prejudice as it would apply to all sexualities.

However, I’d suggest that interpretation isn’t as wide-spread as you seem to think.

"The struggle against discrimination based on sexual preference is a matter of human rights" - Alejandra Sarda is the coordinator of the Latin American and Caribbean Program of the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission

From Gaylawnet.com:

Under the Victorian Equal Opportunity Act, it is against the law to discriminate on the basis of a person's lawful sexual preference.

Under the Commonwealth Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission Act and on the basis of the International Labor Organisation Convention No. 111, the Commission may inquire into discrimination by any person in employment or occupation on most of the grounds included in the Victorian Equal

Opportunity Act and on some additional grounds, including sexual preference.

Under the Commonwealth Workplace Relations Act 1996 (s170CK) termination of employment on certain specified prohibited grounds including sexual preference may be unlawful.

Sexual Preference: Its Development in Men and Women - Is a book from the 1980s, it’s one of the earliest works that went through a large number of different studies and concluded that homosexuality was not a choice and not the result of incorrect parenting, but an inborn trait.

Is sexual preference was such a loaded term and subject to confusion, why would these gay-positive sources use it? Even if ‘sexual orientation’ is a preferred term among some, suggesting that if someone uses the term sexual preference they must think being queer is a choice is ridiculous.


*************

Darkemorrow wrote...

Possibly Marjolaine too... Leliana hinted that they had some kind of relationship at one point.

PC: Have you ever the same with anyone else as you did with Marjolaine?
Leliana if in romance: Only you.

Yep, I think that's a hint!  

And I have a sneaking suspicion that Wade and Herren are more than just "business partners"

I got the same feeling, call it a hunch.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 13 janvier 2010 - 01:33 .

[maxernst]

With respect to whether Alistair's character would have to be changed to allow a gay romance to occur, I'm not so sure. While I think it's safe to say we're all wired to lean one way or the other, for some sexuality is more fluid than others. Off the top of my head, I can name a half-dozen "gay" men I know who married and had kids, so the mere fact that he expresses an interest in women in one game doesn't inherently preclude his having an interest in men as well, under the right circumstances.



You have to recall also that "gay" and "straight" are essentially modern constructions. In medieval times, sodomy was seen as a vice rather than an identity and it's likely that a lot of men who really preferred women dabbled in homosexual behavior. For single men, the only accessible women were prostitutes. I suspect there were an awful lot of knights who had sex with their squires or pages on long campaigns. You don't really think everybody who has same-sex experiences in prison is gay do you?



Now, admittedly the world of DA:O is significantly different from the real medieval world, in that women have far more freedom, so maybe that's not relevant. On the other hand, if DA:O lacks the sharp gender role distinctions that medieval societies had, it's also possible that it's far more sexually libertine...in which case Alistair might not have a problem with fooling around with both sexes. It doesn't sound as though the Chantry would approve, but he's not exactly devout, anyway.



A number of times, I've seen it stated that the game company doesn't control the sexaulity of the PC. In hack & slash roleplaying games like the Might & Magic series, this is certainly true as you don't really have any opportunity to express your sexaulity one way or the other. But it's only half-true in a game like DA:O. I have dialog options to allow me to flirt with the barmaid in the tavern in Redcliffe (do you still get those as a female PC), whereas I haven't had the opportunity to flirt with comely male NPC's (haven't met Zevran yet). It would be nice to have the option of flirting with Alistair, even if his response would always be negative and lower his approval..it's all about the roleplaying after all.



I have to say that as good as the writing in DA:O is--and it's probably the first PC game I've played that I would mention in the same breath as Planescape: Torment for writing--I'm a little depressed that with all the technical advances since the days of the Ultima games, no progress has been made on dialog. We still rely on pre-written dialog trees. So often I find myself wanting to say something that I can't. When I was talking to the blood mage in the castle basement, I so wanted to ask Morrigan what she knows about blood mages (same with the Qunari earlier). What I really want to do with him his hang on to him as a potential witness against Loghaine, so I told him he could either come with me or stay in the cage...so he's staying in the cage. Earlier when Morrigan was being all hissy about me agreeing to look for the Blacksmith's daughter in the castle, I wanted to tell her that I plan on going there anyway, so it's not much of an imposition. I wanted to ask Alistair about Isolde, after I met her, but there were no options.



I realize it's a huge prgramming problem to try and get the AI to understand all the possible things that we could want to ask, but I wish I saw some sign of progress on this front. In some ways, I think the approach of Morrowind and Wizardry 8 to dialog might have more potential to move us toward being able to roleplay freely, even though neither game came close to the quality of writing of DA:O.

[mjboldy]

maxernst wrote...

A number of times, I've seen it stated that the game company doesn't control the sexaulity of the PC. In hack & slash roleplaying games like the Might & Magic series, this is certainly true as you don't really have any opportunity to express your sexaulity one way or the other. But it's only half-true in a game like DA:O. I have dialog options to allow me to flirt with the barmaid in the tavern in Redcliffe (do you still get those as a female PC), whereas I haven't had the opportunity to flirt with comely male NPC's (haven't met Zevran yet). It would be nice to have the option of flirting with Alistair, even if his response would always be negative and lower his approval..it's all about the roleplaying after all.

I have to say that as good as the writing in DA:O is--and it's probably the first PC game I've played that I would mention in the same breath as Planescape: Torment for writing--I'm a little depressed that with all the technical advances since the days of the Ultima games, no progress has been made on dialog. We still rely on pre-written dialog trees. So often I find myself wanting to say something that I can't. When I was talking to the blood mage in the castle basement, I so wanted to ask Morrigan what she knows about blood mages (same with the Qunari earlier). What I really want to do with him his hang on to him as a potential witness against Loghaine, so I told him he could either come with me or stay in the cage...so he's staying in the cage. Earlier when Morrigan was being all hissy about me agreeing to look for the Blacksmith's daughter in the castle, I wanted to tell her that I plan on going there anyway, so it's not much of an imposition. I wanted to ask Alistair about Isolde, after I met her, but there were no options.

I realize it's a huge prgramming problem to try and get the AI to understand all the possible things that we could want to ask, but I wish I saw some sign of progress on this front. In some ways, I think the approach of Morrowind and Wizardry 8 to dialog might have more potential to move us toward being able to roleplay freely, even though neither game came close to the quality of writing of DA:O.

I definitely agree with what you say. I think we should be getting to the point in RPG's where we take the next step up from dialogue trees or at least offering a more diverse list of choices to say. I was actually just thinking about how in the future how cool it would be if video games were able to pass the Turing test and we were able to communicate freely with NPC's in games and not having them respond like the speech function on your computer. It would be amazing to not be restricted to select dialogue options that may not be exactly what we want to say. How to go about that? I haven't the slightest clue, of course I'm not being paid to innovate here . Hopefully it won't be too far down the line (crossing fingers for within the next 20 years). Now I feel terribly off topic.

[Will Moor]

I know this thread hasn't been responded to in two weeks, but here goes anyway.



I think BioWare does the best job of any game developers EVER with the dialogue options they DO offer in their games. I don't think they did anything that warrants complaints in that department.



As a gay guy, I do hope that IF romances are available in the expansion pack, gay ones will be included. But if no romance is possible, as others have said, the point is moot.



Mass Effect has pretty much been established as a series that offers only M/F and F/F romance (which, lets face it, is probably there for the straight boys more than it is for the gay girls) we gay guys who play are S.O.L as far as Mass Effect is concerned and will probably continue to be with part 3, but we have been offered the addition of M/M romance in the Dragon Age series, so I personally think that needs to continue if romance options continue to be offered. If not, its a step down from what has come before and a departure from what has been established. That is just my opinion.

[Allison W]

Wah up wrote...

I wouldn't like Drage age Origins to become a gay porno fetish to some people. Thats directed to you lot who said, i hope so.

Also a lot of reviews would disagree with it...

yeah should totally be a straight porno fetish instead

Dark Lilith wrote...

I 'd love to see she-males added to the createable races as well

asdlfk;salkdfj

That's a pretty offensive term unless you're using it in the private company of people who are fine with it (kind of like how it is with lots of other slurs). Also, something tells me that if they were playable, the option to play a transgendered woman (or man, for that matter) would be located in the Gender row, not the Race row.

Solostran85 wrote...
I didn't say gay but some people were asking for a shemale type romance or some sort of weird thing like that. And please respect my opinion I have just as much of a right to voice my opinion as you do.

Aside from the aforementioned issues with the term in question, transgendered women do exist in the real world and have relationships, including romantic ones.

There are also transvestite companions available at the Pearl; you may or may not have noticed.

.Raven.rpg wrote...



Who wants to be gay in game anyway

possibly gay people I dunno that's just a guess

Now, I'm kind of hoping for new romances as well (wouldn't mind a brash, gutsy young warrior gal, myself), unlikely as it may be. I'm kind of hoping that the "old favourite" who's returning isn't just one singular character (in fact, if you're using your old DA:O Warden instead of a new one from Orlais, depending upon the outcome of your DA:O campaign, the current front-runner for that old favourite might have a very good reason to not return as a companion in DA:A), but rather a variable character depending upon whom you were closest to in DA:O, or at least whichever character had the most reason to keep hanging out with you. I'll be upset if my rogue's relationship with Leliana just mysteriously disappears with no explanation of just what the hell came up (giving her a 180 into Dual-Wielding talents and the Duelist specialization doth not a warrior make but I'm working with what I have here).

Modifié par Allison W, 28 janvier 2010 - 06:25 .

[Legbiter]

Doing Zev technically isn't gay since he's an elf.

[Allison W]

Legbiter wrote...

Doing Zev technically isn't gay since he's an elf.

I'd love to know why you have a rule for that.

[Wesley Wyndam Price]

While Bioware has been a forerunner for the GLBT community in games they still have "straddled the fence" on the issue. Fading to black right before you kiss sky in Jade Empire, mostly only having bi-sexual characters in their games (minus the female Jedi in Kotor...her name escapes me at the moment)...



I would like to see a strong gay male character in one of their future games that isn't trapped in the usual gay stereotypes. Even if you couldn't romance him it would be great to see a well written male homosexual in a game.

[RedSocialKnight]

I'm gay. I love Bioware's romances. As a big fan of Zevran -- and of Leliana -- I hope that they'll be allowed to remain individuals, that Bioware will continue including those romances that make sense for the story and characters, rather than bowing to a perceived obligation to provide one partner of each type in every game.

Not every story should have a romance subplot at all -- much less necessarily a romance for every orientation.

Personally, I would have been delighted if Leli and Zev had been the existing characters to carry over to Awakenings -- especially as their epilogues say they continue adventuring. Would have been nice. Unfortunately as we are expecting only one returning character, I suspect it won't be either of them.

Modifié par RedSocialKnight, 28 janvier 2010 - 07:27 .

[Abriael_CG]

Wesley Wyndam Price wrote...

I would like to see a strong gay male character in one of their future games that isn't trapped in the usual gay stereotypes. Even if you couldn't romance him it would be great to see a well written male homosexual in a game.

You make it sound like sexual orientation would be the most important aspect of a character's writing. As long as it's well written, honestly, who cares if he's straight or gay?

Personally I find it almost amusing to see people complain because a character is bisexual instead of homosexual. Omg! Discrimination! They making the character bisexual must be a cospiracy by evil Bioware to take a jab at the gay community!

I'm sure that Zevran romancing girls in someone else's game will really spoil your gaming experience.

Please... <_<

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 28 janvier 2010 - 07:47 .

[Wesley Wyndam Price]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Wesley Wyndam Price wrote...

I would like to see a strong gay male character in one of their future games that isn't trapped in the usual gay stereotypes. Even if you couldn't romance him it would be great to see a well written male homosexual in a game.

You make it sound like sexual orientation would be the most important aspect of a character's writing. As long as it's well written, honestly, who cares if he's straight or gay?

Personally I find it almost amusing to see people complain because a character is bisexual instead of homosexual. Omg! Discrimination! They making the character bisexual must be a cospiracy by evil Bioware to take a jab at the gay community!

I'm sure that Zevran romancing girls in someone else's game will really spoil your gaming experience.

Please... <_<

Just shut up already and leave me the hell alone.  Are you stalking me or something?  Anything I post you have to come in and post your smug reply trying to refute whatever I say no matter what it is.  From here on out I'm going to completely ignore your posts...if you don't like what I have to say I suggest you do the same.

Again, leave me alone. 

[Abriael_CG]

Wesley Wyndam Price wrote...

Just shut up already and leave me the hell alone.  Are you stalking me or something?

This is a discussion forum. It means that people come here to discuss about various topics, and someone might comment and respond to what you write.

If you don't like the idea, I suggest you to get a blog (make sure to turn off comments though, gods forbid someone be allowed to disagree with you ).

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 28 janvier 2010 - 08:18 .

[MrKrisSatan]

first time doesn't count, second means your curious and third time well then your gay.

i cant remember where i heard that, think it might of been south park.

[Wesley Wyndam Price]

I asked you nicely to leave me alone, but you only seek to cause problems. I have zero problems with people disagreeing with me, but you are just flat out stalking. So from now on every time you come into thread where I've posted and deliberately attempt to harass me and cause problems I'm just going to simply report your post.



End of discussion.

[Abriael_CG]

Wesley Wyndam Price wrote...

I asked you nicely to leave me alone, but you only seek to cause problems. I have zero problems with people disagreeing with me, but you are just flat out stalking. So from now on every time you come into thread where I've posted and deliberately attempt to harass me and cause problems I'm just going to simply report your post.

Go for it. Unfortunately for you, this forum doesn't revolve around you, and people have the right to respond and comment on whatever they want as long as they respect the rules.
If you want to dictate (ask nicely? just lol) who responds to your posts, I'm afraid a public discussion forum isn't the place for you.
You're seriously quite paranoid if you think that someone posting regularly on the same forum as you and happens to occasionally respond to some of your posts (99% of which on the same thread, by the way) has anything to do with "stalking".
Going by your skewed reasoning, given how many times you responded to my posts (quite often in a quite insulting way, I'd add), maybe you're the one stalking me? 

But do go ahead, I'm sure the mods will have a giggle at someone sending reports such as: "he occasionally dares to respond to my posts, the evil guy!"

On the bright side, reading my posts isn't doctor's orders. So if you see a post of mine, you can just avoid reading.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 28 janvier 2010 - 08:53 .

[Will Moor]

Edit:  ::Sigh:: Double post.  Sorry.

Modifié par Will Moor, 28 janvier 2010 - 09:19 .

[Will Moor]

I don't care if the characters are bi instead of gay, its the substance of the romance that I care about. I just want my male PCs to have a male romance option, and one with substance. If the man could just as easily fall for a girl as he could a guy, I am perfectly fine with that. I wish people hadn't complained about Zev, personally. I thought he was well written and how he was written was perfect for who he was. I am guessing that David Gaider or whoever wrote Zev wanted to make a character like this who would make sense in the game setting.



Those who read the FAQ about sexuality and marriage on Thedas (found here: http://old.dragonage...ngle/1250476260) would know that there IS a degree of uptightness about same-sex relationships, even if its not as bad as it can be in the real world in certain places and in certain religions To write a male character that would realistically get into a relationship with a male PC in a Chantry dominated culture, especially under the cirumstances, I think he almost HAD to be someone like Zevran for it to make sense in this setting. A rogue who doesn't give a damn about the common view or the rules of the Chantry, etc. Someone that would intensely and actively pursue such a thing despite what others might think.



Whining and complaining about something that was pretty brave (and in my opinion, generous) of BioWare to do in the first place won't encourage BioWare to give us more. Maybe that is partially why the male romance option in Mass Effect 2 was scrapped. Not only were the 'phobes complaining, SOME (definitely not all) of those who like gay romance options were complaining about what we DID get, despite the fact that it really was well written, did make sense for the setting and was a whole lot more substantial in content than Jade Empire's Sky romance.

Abriael_CG wrote...

You make it sound like sexual orientation would be the most important aspect of a character's writing. As long as it's well written, honestly, who cares if he's straight or gay?

Well, I do want there to be a gay presence in my video games because I myself am gay and like to occasionally be able fully identify with my character. Yes, I can identify with someone who doesn't have the same sexuality as me, but sometimes I want to be able to identify on that level too. I don't think that is a terrible thing to want, personally. Not that I am saying that you do think its terrible, I don't know if you do or not. Anyway, I know that I am in a tiny minority, so when it does happen, I am pretty darn happy about it.

[SusanStoHelit]

Wesley Wyndam Price wrote...
(minus the female Jedi in Kotor...her name escapes me at the moment)...

Juhani

[Alendor1989]

Well, hope they dont include any other gay romance, since most of the people who play the game are NOT gay. I remember when Zevran joined my team, I talked with him and I found out he was a pervert gay (no offense, but I dont like to talk with a dude and in less than 1 minutes he is telling me I look so hot for him). Instead they should include more hot chicks.