204 réponses à ce sujet

[Abriael_CG]

Paromlin wrote...
For example, I find Abriael's post more problematic. Developers should have a sense of the importance of inclusion and diversity.

Writers should have a sense of the importance of the story and put in only what fits in their vision of the story, without having to bow to the political diktats of a minority.
There's tons of diversity in fantasy. There's elves, there's dwarves, there's demons, spirits and so forth. Most fantasy worlds are bursting with diversity.

As a matter of fact (I can tell, since as an amateur writer I did try, and given the area in which I work, I have tons of homosexual friends to be inspired by, it's not always enough), believable homosexual characters are NOT easy to write for most eterosexual writers. So I don't see the slightest reason why a writer should artifically include a token one, with the risk of jeopardizing the quality of his work to appease to a vocal minority that think that gaming should be just another field to express their gay pride.

Also, we're a large part of the playerbase.

Large? Large how? Do you have any believable statistics?
Larger than say... Asian gamers? Does this mean every developer should include asian characters in their games not to offend the "rights" of Asian people? 

I really find it funny to see how some people think that sexual orientation/race/religion/(insert controversial reason to whine here) should be the primary defining trait of a character and that they have some kind of ancerstral right to see their own minority represented, regardless of what the writers' vision is.

I'm sure my scottish friends feel extremely offended by the fact that no one wear kilts in Dragon Age...

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 28 janvier 2010 - 05:40 .

[hannibal555]

From now on every single Bioware game/addon/dlc seems to be doomed to
have a thread that demands gay romance.

Modifié par hannibal555, 28 janvier 2010 - 05:47 .

[Paromlin]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Writers should have a sense of the importance of the story and put in only what fits in their vision of the story, without having to bow to the political diktats of a minority.
There's tons of diversity in fantasy. There's elves, there's dwarves, there's demons, spirits and so forth. Most fantasy worlds are bursting with diversity.

As a matter of fact (I can tell, since as an amateur writer I did try, and given the area in which I work, I have tons of homosexual friends to be inspired by, it's not always enough), believable homosexual characters are NOT easy to write for most eterosexual writers. So I don't see the slightest reason why a writer should artifically include a token one, with the risk of jeopardizing the quality of his work to appease to a vocal minority that think that gaming should be just another field to express their gay pride.  

Story.. bla bla story. I don't see a single "story reason" for the absence of such a widespread sexual orientation, even in a fantasy world. You didn't understand what I meant by diversity - I meant diversity in a sense that people can identify themselves with their character: be it the colour of the skin, sexual orientation etc. That's part of role playing. It's through interaction with other characters that this comes to fruition. It would be weird to be the only gay character in the whole game, wouldn't it?

It's not a political agenda. It's really only a matter of inclusion. Do you watch TV series, movies? There are plenty of gay characters. People want to see someone like them, feel included. I know your country, Italy, is a bit conservative with sexuality.

Now, it's not a MUST but it's something very POSITIVE.

Large? Large how? Do you have any believable statistics?
Larger than say... Asian gamers? Does this mean every developer should include asian characters in their games not to offend the "rights" of Asian people? 

I really find it funny to see how some people think that sexual orientation/race/religion/(insert controversial reason to whine here) should be the primary defining trait of a character and that they have some kind of ancerstral right to see their own minority represented, regardless of what the writers' vision is.

I'm sure my scottish friends feel extremely offended by the fact that no one wear kilts in Dragon Age...

You really mix unmixable things big time. If it's a fantasy world then there's no point to copy real world religions/nations/countries. But sexuality is another thing. It goes beyond age, time and nation. Sure, Dragon Age *has* French, Italian, Spanish, Latin, German etc. nations and people.. but that's another story. :/

Regarding statistics. Lets say 10% of the population is homosexual and another 15% is bisexual; statistics vary. Is this sexual orientation widespread enough to be represented in games? Or do you need proof that gays and bisexuals play video games?

[RedSocialKnight]

In a previous post, I said basically what Abriael is saying -- but now, having seen my words reflected in his, I'm going to partially backtrack.



Yes, story and character are paramount. However, unless you consciously make an effort to think about themes, characters, and styles that have been traditionally excluded from representation, your stories will be the poorer for it.



Jane Austen writes about the middle class of a society where every middle-class person had servants. But in her books, you never hear a servant speak. That's not simply because she never happened to think of a story about a servant. It's because the society that depended on a servant class also chose to ignore the personal lives of the people they depended on. It's not active bigotry, it's just that she talks only about the people who are naturally interesting her -- and that means other people like her. As a result she is brilliant, but brilliant within very narrow limits.



In the decades after Austen, writers with broader sympathies turned the same intelligence she trained solely on the middle class on the full spectrum of nineteenth century British society. Can you claim that Charles Dickens or Maryanne "George Eliot" Evans are better writers than Jane Austen? Not really. But you certainly can say that they give a deeper, richer portrait of their world than Austen ever allowed herself to do.



The case of gay characters and themes is similar. Historically, gay romance hasn't just been left out of stories by chance -- it's been systematically excluded in order to build the conventions of the romance genre.



A writer who consciously prods himself to be aware of such persistent exclusions, and who dares to go beyond the comfort zone of tradition into subject matter that's been ignored, will produce fuller, richer stories that more meaningfully reflect his world.



It is important to think, when you are writing a story: What and who am I choosing to leave out? And why? "Write what you know" is a good rule for beginners, but if we stuck to that rule we would have no tales of dragons.

[cmathews03]

Abriael - I think you misconstrue the point of this thread and the comments that people have proffered. We don't (or at least I don't, and I can't as easily detect as you) believe it's our "ancerstral right to see [our] own minority represented, regardless of... the writers' vision," rather we'd like to possibly see more representation--for increased immersion or enjoyment or what have you. It's more of an 'idea' than a request--and it isn't, as far as I can see, a demand.



Whether or not BioWare heeds our wishes is solely their prerogative, but I can comfortably and almost-assuredly say that no one who identifies with the lesbian, gay, transgender, bisexual community will be upset if BioWare doesn't include exclusively-homosexual relationships in their games. Will some portion of the fanbase be a bit disappointed and/or disheartened? Sure. But, at the end of the day, it is what it is--and, from what I gather, most people here can and have accepted that.

[Wesley Wyndam Price]

vicendor wrote...

This thread makes me puke

Then why are you here?  Take your phobias elsewhere.

[Paromlin]

RedSocialKnight wrote...

The case of gay characters and themes is similar. Historically, gay romance hasn't just been left out of stories by chance -- it's been systematically excluded in order to build the conventions of the romance genre.

A writer who consciously prods himself to be aware of such persistent exclusions, and who dares to go beyond the comfort zone of tradition into subject matter that's been ignored, will produce fuller, richer stories that more meaningfully reflect his world.

This is it. Media (even video games) have an important role in the battle against discrimination. They shouldn't forget that.

[Frozeal]

Leliana is a ho yo

[RedSocialKnight]

However!

[Yes, I am splitting my comment into two posts because the first was already too long-winded. Sue me.]

However -- there is real danger, once you incorporate less-traditional material into your stories, of falling quickly into the new cliche of tokenism.

Most writers don't know classes, races, sexualities, or experiences other than their own as well as they know their own. It's very easy to reduce the "outsider" simply to his outsider label -- "the gay one," "the Asian one," "the Sega-fanboy one." Mechanically sticking a gay character in every story does nothing to really broaden the scope of the game if he's simply there to represent gayness.

Just like the angsty, spike-haired hero or the plucky childhood friend or the mysterious girl with healing powers, the outsider character who brought life to the first installment of your series will drain the life right out of the fifth installment unless you find a way to dig underneath the label and bring him back to life from the inside out.

Bioware has shown that they are interested in expanding the kinds of stories that can be told in RPGs, and that has real value. Juhani, Liara, and Zevran brought something to the genre that we hadn't seen before.

I just don't want them to rest on their laurels and let "gay love interest" become the new-old cliche that shows up again and again -- like the "heroine's gay best friend" character that brought freshness and then so quickly turned to staleness in movies from the nineties.

I want Bioware to keep going, keep finding something new. What about a game where the primary relationship is not romance but a passionate friendship? What about the relationship between a possessed body (perhaps Morrigan's child?) and the people who loved the body's former inhabitant, or the present soul in its former body? There don't need to be limits -- this is fantasy after all.

Modifié par RedSocialKnight, 28 janvier 2010 - 06:41 .

[Abriael_CG]

Paromlin wrote...
Story.. bla bla story. I don't see a single "story reason" for the absence of such a widespread sexual orientation

And there's no story reason for it's inclusion. It all boils down to a thing. If the writer feels that he's able to write a believable homosexual character, and even more importantly, if the writer LIKES the idea of writing such a character and feels that such a character would enrich his world, then he should write it. Otherwise, he has no reason to insert a token homosexual character just to appease the ones that want it.

It's not a political agenda. It's really only a matter of inclusion. Do you watch TV series, movies? There are plenty of gay characters. People want to see someone like them, feel included. I know your country, Italy, is a bit conservative with sexuality.

A very sizeable percentage of those characters have nothing to do with real homosexuals (that at least in my personal experience are in most cases very normal people that also happen to like to have romance and sex with people of the same gender, in their own private time), they're horrible over-the-top stereotypes whose homosexuality is painted as the primary (if not only) trait of their personality. Those are the fruits of writers that had to include homosexuals as a "Token character" to appease the minority or to stir some controversy, independently from their actual will and ability to write them. In videogames it's the same.

Also, you don't know Italy very much. if you visit Milan, there's the biggest fashion Industry of the world (in which I happen to currently work besides other things). In that and several other fields it's almost easier to find a gay man than a straight one. We have openly gay politicians, actors, and every other kind of people. Things have changed quite a lot, so I'm sorry, we ain't stuck in the middle agges.

Now, it's not a MUST but it's something very POSITIVE.

Positives are relative. You might seem to see a gay character as an absolute positive. I find it a positive when the writer actually wanted and was able to include it, as an integrated part of his personal vision. I find the inclusion of artificially stereotyped token characters (of any kind) very negative, instead.

Regarding statistics. Lets say 10% of the population is homosexual and another 15% is bisexual; statistics vary. Is this sexual orientation widespread enough to be represented in games? Or do you need proof that gays and bisexuals play video games?

Again, asians make for the 40% of the world population. Does this mean every developer should include a token asian character to "represent" in order not to offend their asian playerbase?

Honestly, I think the inability to connect with a character that doesn't represent us to the T isn't exactly a great example of open mindedness. I am a big fan of JRPGs, but I would never go to complain to Square-Enix or so because their characters are probably polar opposites to me. I connect with them due to their stories, not because they happen to be my "alter-ego".

cmathews03 wrote...
Whether or not BioWare heeds our wishes is solely their prerogative, but I can comfortably and almost-assuredly
say that no one who identifies with the lesbian, gay, transgender, bisexual community will be upset if BioWare doesn't include exclusively-homosexual relationships in their games. Will some portion of the fanbase be a bit disappointed and/or disheartened? Sure. But, at the end of the day, it is what it is--and, from what I gather, most
people here can and have accepted that.

Actually there are quite a few people (and journalists, not to mention strongly-characterized pro-gay bloggers) that cried "scandal!" when Bioware allowed F/F lesbian relationships but not M/M in Mass Effect.
This is exactly the problem i see here (and with similar posts like the ones that want black nobles in Ferelden and so forth), I'm getting the strong vibe that some (not all, mind you) people think that it's not a developer's "prerogative" to decide whether or not a minority is included in the game. Many seem to feel it's their RIGHT to have such characters included, and that I cannot agree with.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 28 janvier 2010 - 06:41 .

[Frozeal]

And what about Wade?

[tomas819]

It would not have seemed "game-breaking" to me if Morrigan and/or Alistair had been same-sex romanceable. I say this because of how these two characters are written. Morrigan seems very VERY open-minded and libertine. It does not take a great stretch of the imagination to see her being open to trying different things. Alistair is a bit more problematic, but even his personality does not seem cemented in any particular orientation, not the way he's currently written and acted. It's not hard for me to imagine Alistair being "repressed" during his chantry upbringing and/or Morrigan being only too willing to defy chantry or societal conventions regarding sex.

That said, I'm fine with whatever Bioware opts to do in Awakenings (including leaving romance out of the equation altogether).

If it were me designing the next expansion, I'd keep all the romances off to the side somehow, as optional side quests/interactions with non-companion NPCs. Otherwise, it just gets too complicated trying to write and code all that romance content to suit diverse player expectations.

Oddly enough, in Origins, I found Alistair's personality to be the most appealing from a romantic standpoint, but he was (for me, anyway) the wrong gender. Lelianna was too sweet, cutesy, and cloying. Morrigan was too selfish, cold, and negative. Zevran was entertaining as a friend but more than that, just, whoa, no thanks.  I liked them all as companions, but -- romantically -- not so much.

[Paromlin]

Sorry Abriael, but I have no intention to read your essay and spend my precious time answering to all the misconceptions and invalid arguments. I'll leave the stage to you so you can step up and have the last word.

Abriael_CG wrote...



And there's no story reason for it's inclusion. 

Besides having human sexuality correctly reflected...

Lulz, you can't compare nationality / etnicity / race with sexual orientation. It's entirely plausible that a region of a fantasy world has (much) less black / white / yellow people. On the other hand it's not plausible that it has (much) less gay people.

[RedSocialKnight]

tomas819 wrote...

It would not have seemed "game-breaking" to me if Morrigan and/or Alistair had been same-sex romanceable.

Of course not gamebreaking, but I think it would have lessened the characters' feeling of reality.

With Alistair it's completely subjective, but he just feels like a straight guy to me. You know him, right? He's that goofy but romantic guy from school, a jock but much less successful with girls than the other jocks, by turns too silly or too serious to break out of the friend-zone, always playing the wingman to his teammates while dreaming of "the one" he puts on a pedestal and keeps his distance from. That's him, right? It would mess up the adorable dorkiness if he was cool enough to be bisexual. He would just be a different guy.

As for Morrigan, she's such a freak that it's a bit of a mystery why she would limit her appetites to one gender -- but the answer to that mystery of course turns out to be the secret of her true purpose and what she really wants from the Wardens. So with her, playing against type works for the story.

[Frozeal]

Paromlin wrote...

Sorry Abriael, but I have no intention to read your essay and spend my precious time answering to all the misconceptions and invalid arguments. I'll leave the stage to you so you can step up and have the last word.

Abriael_CG wrote...



And there's no story reason for it's inclusion. 

Besides having human sexuality correctly reflected...

Lulz, you can't compare nationality / etnicity / race with sexual orientation. It's entirely plausible that a region of a fantasy world has (much) less black / white / yellow people. On the other hand it's not plausible that it has (much) less gay people.

"...region of a fantasy world (...)"
FANTASY WORLD

FANTASY

Then assume that in this fantasy world, another thing that it's fantastic (appart from having dragons and magic) THERE ARE LESS HOMOSEXUAL PEOPLE THAN IN REAL WORLD.


Drama queens. 

P.S.: As I've pointed in past times in other threads I felt very happy with the inclusion of homosexual romance in DA:O, still, you are just overreacting now.

[Grossbard]

My dad said I can't play this game anymore cuz he saw this thread o.O

[Paromlin]

RedSocialKnight wrote...


Of course not gamebreaking, but I think it would have lessened the characters' feeling of reality.

With Alistair it's completely subjective, but he just feels like a straight guy to me. You know him, right? He's that goofy but romantic guy from school, a jock but much less successful with girls than the other jocks, by turns too silly or too serious to break out of the friend-zone, always playing the wingman to his teammates while dreaming of "the one" he puts on a pedestal and keeps his distance from. That's him, right? It would mess up the adorable dorkiness if he was cool enough to be bisexual. He would just be a different guy.

Lets not get into stereotypes. A gay guy can be all that.

[RedSocialKnight]

Paromlin wrote...
Lets not get into stereotypes. A gay guy can be all that.

Sure, but he would then be a different person from the straight guy, Who in this case is Alistair.

[Sarielle]

I think it would be hard for them to top -- or even equal -- the Zevran romance in a continuation. I know everyone is all gaga over Alistair, but (I'm assuming the M/M plays out the same as the F/M) the Zevran romance actually feels much deeper once first fascination wears off.



By continuing to include both the male and female bisexual content in every single game though, I'm afraid it's going to be in danger of feeling like the "token bisexual" like everyone jokes about the "token black guy."



My 2 coppers.

[tomas819]

RedSocialKnight wrote...

tomas819 wrote...

It would not have seemed "game-breaking" to me if Morrigan and/or Alistair had been same-sex romanceable.

Of course not gamebreaking, but I think it would have lessened the characters' feeling of reality.

With Alistair it's completely subjective, but he just feels like a straight guy to me. You know him, right? He's that goofy but romantic guy from school, a jock but much less successful with girls than the other jocks, by turns too silly or too serious to break out of the friend-zone, always playing the wingman to his teammates while dreaming of "the one" he puts on a pedestal and keeps his distance from. That's him, right? It would mess up the adorable dorkiness if he was cool enough to be bisexual. He would just be a different guy.

As for Morrigan, she's such a freak that it's a bit of a mystery why she would limit her appetites to one gender -- but the answer to that mystery of course turns out to be the secret of her true purpose and what she really wants from the Wardens. So with her, playing against type works for the story.

I do see your point. But I guess what I was saying is that, from my (straight male) perspective, it would not have seemed unrealistic, story/writing-wise, to have these characters be gay-romanceable; nor would it have detracted from the game in any way or my perception of these characters.

Truth be told, while I like and appreciate the fact that Bioware writes romances into their games, if they completely dropped the idea from the next couple of expansions, I'd be OK with that, too.

[Paromlin]

Frozeal wrote...

"...region of a fantasy world (...)"
FANTASY WORLD

FANTASY

Then assume that in this fantasy world, another thing that it's fantastic (appart from having dragons and magic) THERE ARE LESS HOMOSEXUAL PEOPLE THAN IN REAL WORLD.

Right.
If it's a fantasy world everything starts to be plausible! Put the laws of nature upside down, have bricks rain instead of water drops.. plausible! Not.
"But there is magic!!" Yeah, if there is magic it means everything else should/could be upside down and make no sense... OH wait...

RedSocialKnight wrote...

Sure, but he would then be a different person from the straight guy, Who in this case is Alistair.

He would be gay.

[Nilbeny]

Sarielle wrote...

By continuing to include both the male and female bisexual content in every single game though, I'm afraid it's going to be in danger of feeling like the "token bisexual" like everyone jokes about the "token black guy."

My 2 coppers.

In a sense, I'd think of that as more of a threat in more structured fiction. For purposes of games like this however,   I'd like to be optimistic and think of it as providing players the option. Would that facet of the game not be less appealing to many if they didn't see a 'valid' option for their character? (Not that my character's orientation always reflects my own, but it often does)

[RedSocialKnight]

Paromlin wrote...
He would be gay.

Well, right. If you're taking the character seriously you can't just treat it as a toggle that can be flipped from one position to another. He would be gay, hence a different person, hence not the Alistair we love.

[Wesley Wyndam Price]

RedSocialKnight wrote...

Paromlin wrote...
He would be gay.

Well, right. If you're taking the character seriously you can't just treat it as a toggle that can be flipped from one position to another. He would be gay, hence a different person, hence not the Alistair we love.

Being gay does not make someone a "different" person.  Orientation is just a minor tidbit in a character's personality.  Whether or not Alistair would be gay or straight in the game would not change how I would view or react to him.  He would be the same exact person, but have an attraction to men.  

He would however most likely have to be bisexual to make the story work....that or your character would have to be very persuasive in order to get him to sleep with Morrigan or marry Anora.