170 réponses à ce sujet

[Dorick]

Schachmatt wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Hey scottybear. 

I agree his output isnt amazing, but I hardly think that balances his survivability. 

His survivability ends on wave 10 and 11 platinum.

I had 5 out of 6 gel at the end of my solo run, so no. 

And I was out of gel at the end of my games, so yes.

doing it wrong, or bad. 

[TriniWarlord]

The Juggernaught is not OP, someone Solo'd Plat with the Kroguard when Plat came out and that didnt make the Kroguard OP he is a tank just like the Juggernaught. He does take some level of skill (albiet little) and being careful but seriously not OP. In a normal game he is definately not OP as almost everyone can outscore him considerably. Hard to kill YES but OP... NO

However if they must nerf the Juggernaught then they must give him at least a limited Sprint ability

[TriniWarlord]

Eelectrica wrote...

People have soloed platinum with a lot of kits.

This

And u have a PPR X and Scorpion X which means ur are a seasoned Veteran... when a Green Noob does this please feel free to let us know

[MichaelFinnegan]

Dorick wrote...

I think much of your arguments are centered around a notion of some arbitrary definition of "skill" you've come up with, which I believe is resulting in your, what appears to me, to be biased arguments.

@ares

1. I've been pro nerf for those kits as well. Geth Jugg is a newer kit with even tankier shields and sync kill immunity, the level of skill required to played just dropped again.

The idea behind the Juggernaut is simple enough. Here is a kit that cannot sprint, it cannot take hard cover (not to mention the benefits that come with it), cannot vault over cover, etc. This presents a challenge in itself, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. This needs proportional "counter weights" in the form of much better survivability (which in my opinion is debatable given that movement, dodge, etc. equal or might even surpass this kit's survivability to some extent), in the form of better damage, sync kill immunity (because he cannot get out of dodge to put it quite literally.)

2. Lol! I could be wrong but Im pretty sure 3 prime never spawn side by side, only two. So no, not going to take 2 seconds. The third prime will be split into a second spawn area. Again, unless you've set up for a speed run, you are clearly overselling how good players are at nuke spawning. The kit placement, kit, and map all play a serious role. You dont go into a normal game and come out frowny face bc all your teammates were having a wild time blowing up spawns.

Context. You seem to be using it arbitrarily to suit your arguments. I might just as well say that when team mates go down on different parts of the map (which tends to happen more often than not in the PUGs) this kit can't rush to revive; meaning, quite simply, it requires a different approach to gameplay altogether. A game (in my opinion) which is designed around moving rapidly, puts a whole new perspective out with this kit.

3. Sync kills are the AI's way of having control of your actions as you play by determing what you can do without losing. Not only does that not apply to Jugg, but you are guaranteed to never have your solo come to an abrupt end bc of one mistake out of an entire, often very tiring and long match. I guess I'm bad bc I get grabbed and "good" players dont? No, the truth is you are trying to discredit what is obviously a big advantage of the Jugg.

Let's look at it this way: Overwhelming players is the AI's way of having control of your actions as you play by determing what you can do without losing. Not only does that put the Juggernaut at a disadvantage, but you're sometimes forced into encountering them (especially in PUGs) with spawns going all awry, which can to an extent rapidly bring down a full team, especially on higher difficulties. And you're quite simply overlooking what is a big disadvantage of the Juggernaut, especially on larger maps.

4. There are clearly different criteria for OP. In this situation, Jugg is OP based on his game mechanics in comparison to the other kits. He cant get grabbed, you can set him up for 7k shields. Has two shield return moves, and stagger resistence, and can make his own cover. And no, lacking a run or dodge does NOT balance these advantages. Kit could use a nerf, but I'm not asking for one, it would just be nice that people could acknowledge that he is OP in comparison to many other kits.

I think you're overlooking one of the fundamental aspects of this game - the game's tendency to overwhelm players. This kit just has many other drawbacks, including not being able to do some of the objectives reliably, not being able to get to an ammo box in time, etc. You're simpy constructing arguments in favor of your desired conclusion - that this kit is overpowered in comparison to others.

5. I think speedruns get dry and boring fast, they are highly calculated and planned out. More interesting is to be in a difficult situation that requires extensive gamer skills to get out of. That's what I mean by challenge. I play to develop a deeper understanding of the mechanics, and to apply my player skills in different settings. My point is that this character's game mechanics give him an unfair advantage when you compare him to more average kits. Since I like the Jugg and I like the MP, I personally would prefer a nerf. Probably to his damage reduction option in siege pulse.

I think any balance changes at this stage has to critically look at what exactly this kit can afford to lose out on so as not to exacerbate his one big weakness - not being able to sprint. One solo run on Ghost vs. Cerberus doesn't provide sufficient data.

-Frankly all the bitterness has made me much more controversial than i act in real life. But my beliefs regarding this kit remain the same.

The point is not about what your beliefs are. Those are yours to have and maintain. The point is whether there is enough data behind those beliefs so that others can agree with it.

Now, where are my manners: Congratulations on your solo. I definitiely can't do it at this stage with this kit on the second attempt what you've accomplished.

[DHKany]

Fem bot would like to speak with you.....

Modifié par DHKany, 27 février 2013 - 11:49 .

[OneTrueShot]

Onyx Reaper wrote...
..next you'll all want a trio of invincible and invisible Banshees- that can insta-kill you, before they even spawn

You've never played Condor/Reapers?

Modifié par OneTrueShot, 27 février 2013 - 11:51 .

[Dorick]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Dorick wrote...

I think much of your arguments are centered around a notion of some arbitrary definition of "skill" you've come up with, which I believe is resulting in your, what appears to me, to be biased arguments.

@ares

1. I've been pro nerf for those kits as well. Geth Jugg is a newer kit with even tankier shields and sync kill immunity, the level of skill required to played just dropped again.

The idea behind the Juggernaut is simple enough. Here is a kit that cannot sprint, it cannot take hard cover (not to mention the benefits that come with it), cannot vault over cover, etc. This presents a challenge in itself, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. This needs proportional "counter weights" in the form of much better survivability (which in my opinion is debatable given that movement, dodge, etc. equal or might even surpass this kit's survivability to some extent), in the form of better damage, sync kill immunity (because he cannot get out of dodge to put it quite literally.)

2. Lol! I could be wrong but Im pretty sure 3 prime never spawn side by side, only two. So no, not going to take 2 seconds. The third prime will be split into a second spawn area. Again, unless you've set up for a speed run, you are clearly overselling how good players are at nuke spawning. The kit placement, kit, and map all play a serious role. You dont go into a normal game and come out frowny face bc all your teammates were having a wild time blowing up spawns.

Context. You seem to be using it arbitrarily to suit your arguments. I might just as well say that when team mates go down on different parts of the map (which tends to happen more often than not in the PUGs) this kit can't rush to revive; meaning, quite simply, it requires a different approach to gameplay altogether. A game (in my opinion) which is designed around moving rapidly, puts a whole new perspective out with this kit.

3. Sync kills are the AI's way of having control of your actions as you play by determing what you can do without losing. Not only does that not apply to Jugg, but you are guaranteed to never have your solo come to an abrupt end bc of one mistake out of an entire, often very tiring and long match. I guess I'm bad bc I get grabbed and "good" players dont? No, the truth is you are trying to discredit what is obviously a big advantage of the Jugg.

Let's look at it this way: Overwhelming players is the AI's way of having control of your actions as you play by determing what you can do without losing. Not only does that put the Juggernaut at a disadvantage, but you're sometimes forced into encountering them (especially in PUGs) with spawns going all awry, which can to an extent rapidly bring down a full team, especially on higher difficulties. And you're quite simply overlooking what is a big disadvantage of the Juggernaut, especially on larger maps.

4. There are clearly different criteria for OP. In this situation, Jugg is OP based on his game mechanics in comparison to the other kits. He cant get grabbed, you can set him up for 7k shields. Has two shield return moves, and stagger resistence, and can make his own cover. And no, lacking a run or dodge does NOT balance these advantages. Kit could use a nerf, but I'm not asking for one, it would just be nice that people could acknowledge that he is OP in comparison to many other kits.

I think you're overlooking one of the fundamental aspects of this game - the game's tendency to overwhelm players. This kit just has many other drawbacks, including not being able to do some of the objectives reliably, not being able to get to an ammo box in time, etc. You're simpy constructing arguments in favor of your desired conclusion - that this kit is overpowered in comparison to others.

5. I think speedruns get dry and boring fast, they are highly calculated and planned out. More interesting is to be in a difficult situation that requires extensive gamer skills to get out of. That's what I mean by challenge. I play to develop a deeper understanding of the mechanics, and to apply my player skills in different settings. My point is that this character's game mechanics give him an unfair advantage when you compare him to more average kits. Since I like the Jugg and I like the MP, I personally would prefer a nerf. Probably to his damage reduction option in siege pulse.

I think any balance changes at this stage has to critically look at what exactly this kit can afford to lose out on so as not to exacerbate his one big weakness - not being able to sprint. One solo run on Ghost vs. Cerberus doesn't provide sufficient data.

-Frankly all the bitterness has made me much more controversial than i act in real life. But my beliefs regarding this kit remain the same.

The point is not about what your beliefs are. Those are yours to have and maintain. The point is whether there is enough data behind those beliefs so that others can agree with it.

Now, where are my manners: Congratulations on your solo. I definitiely can't do it at this stage with this kit on the second attempt what you've accomplished.

This kit's cons do not balance the pros, and does not balance in comparison to other kits. That's my opinion, ive clearly played him enough to form an opinion on experience, not speculation. 

[Dorick]

DHKany wrote...

Fem bot would like to speak with you.....

Will give her a try sometime later, to see what the fuss is about. 

[78stonewobble]

How about we get a little perspective and some more statistics and information on this subject before making up our minds?

It doesn't really say much that one or even a few good players are able to solo platinum.

Nor would it really matter if lesser skilled players were able to solo platinum if the times are so slow it does not give them any advantage over more skilled players in regards to the winnings/loot/credits.

There are allready weapons, powers, playstyles, characters that are more "efficient" than others in that regard and the only way to solve this permanently would be that credits could only be gained via playing only one character build with one standard weapon.

[Schachmatt123]

Dorick wrote...
doing it wrong, or bad. 

Not surprising. You seem to choose an arrogant attitude once again. And you fail to see that you just contradicted your whole argument. If the kit really would be that op as you claim, doing it wrong or bad wouldn't matter.

You just needed one gel, but you used most of your ops packs and rockets. Gee, I didn't need to use them, so may be you're the one doing it bad or wrong? /ironie  ;-)

[MichaelFinnegan]

Dorick wrote...

This kit's cons do not balance the pros, and does not balance in comparison to other kits. That's my opinion, ive clearly played him enough to form an opinion on experience, not speculation.

Yes, as long as you acknowledge it as them being your opinions (even based on what you've experienced) there's nothing that I could really say. There is really no basis for any kind of argument.

[Dorick]

Schachmatt wrote...

Dorick wrote...
doing it wrong, or bad. 

Not surprising. You seem to choose an arrogant attitude once again. And you fail to see that you just contradicted your whole argument. If the kit really would be that op as you claim, doing it wrong or bad wouldn't matter.

You just needed one gel, but you used most of your ops packs and rockets. Gee, I didn't need to use them, so may be you're the one doing it bad or wrong? /ironie  ;-)

By the definition of both doing something wrong, or having inadequate skill, they both matter 100%. Havent we all heard of the missile glitcher who rage quits after going down too many times?>no "contradiction". 

You ran through your gels before your ops and missiles? 
Confirmed Bad. 

[Dorick]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Dorick wrote...

This kit's cons do not balance the pros, and does not balance in comparison to other kits. That's my opinion, ive clearly played him enough to form an opinion on experience, not speculation.

Yes, as long as you acknowledge it as them being your opinions (even based on what you've experienced) there's nothing that I could really say. There is really no basis for any kind of argument.

You could call me a name, threaten to hurt/harm me, or otherwise use an unrelated argument. It seems like a good number of posters are already doing that. 

[Schachmatt123]

Dorick wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

Dorick wrote...
doing it wrong, or bad. 

Not surprising. You seem to choose an arrogant attitude once again. And you fail to see that you just contradicted your whole argument. If the kit really would be that op as you claim, doing it wrong or bad wouldn't matter.

You just needed one gel, but you used most of your ops packs and rockets. Gee, I didn't need to use them, so may be you're the one doing it bad or wrong? /ironie  ;-)

By the definition of both doing something wrong, or having inadequate skill, they both matter 100%. Havent we all heard of the missile glitcher who rage quits after going down too many times?>no "contradiction". 

You ran through your gels before your ops and missiles? 
Confirmed Bad. 

I'm done arguing with you. You even failed to see the ironie and smilie after my sentence to make you realize how useless your 'argument' was in the first place. How pathetic.

Seems you have a major inferiority complex if you think that casual players could play a difficulty that only you think they shouldn't - because they lack some skill. I have bad news for you - this game requires no skill. Pressing two buttons or keys in the right order is not a skill. Now be proud of your 66 minute solo versus the easiest faction on platinum on the easiest map, that had been soloed faster by the real elite with harder to play kits in a significantely faster time.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Dorick wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Dorick wrote...

This kit's cons do not balance the pros, and does not balance in comparison to other kits. That's my opinion, ive clearly played him enough to form an opinion on experience, not speculation.

Yes, as long as you acknowledge it as them being your opinions (even based on what you've experienced) there's nothing that I could really say. There is really no basis for any kind of argument.

You could call me a name, threaten to hurt/harm me, or otherwise use an unrelated argument. It seems like a good number of posters are already doing that.

Geez. Why would you say something like that? I'm not equal to the "good number of posters" or even to any one of them. Either there is validity in your arguments or not. That's what I'm interested in.

[weaselshep]

You mean they finally made a tank class that can actually take a hit or two before going down.

[Dorick]

Schachmatt wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

Dorick wrote...
doing it wrong, or bad. 

Not surprising. You seem to choose an arrogant attitude once again. And you fail to see that you just contradicted your whole argument. If the kit really would be that op as you claim, doing it wrong or bad wouldn't matter.

You just needed one gel, but you used most of your ops packs and rockets. Gee, I didn't need to use them, so may be you're the one doing it bad or wrong? /ironie  ;-)

By the definition of both doing something wrong, or having inadequate skill, they both matter 100%. Havent we all heard of the missile glitcher who rage quits after going down too many times?>no "contradiction". 

You ran through your gels before your ops and missiles? 
Confirmed Bad. 

I'm done arguing with you. You even failed to see the ironie and smilie after my sentence to make you realize how useless your 'argument' was in the first place. How pathetic.

Seems you have a major inferiority complex if you think that casual players could play a difficulty that only you think they shouldn't - because they lack some skill. I have bad news for you - this game requires no skill. Pressing two buttons or keys in the right order is not a skill. Now be proud of your 66 minute solo versus the easiest faction on platinum on the easiest map, that had been soloed faster by the real elite with harder to play kits in a significantely faster time.

Not sure you know what "irony" is, or perhaps we were taught diff definitions.  
Yup, someone disagrees with you, must be inferiority complex. 

I have "bad news for you": this game requires skill. If its so easy, go beat my platinum solo score, and then we can go back and forth to see who can knock the most time off = instantly requires skill by pitting two humans against each other.

Anyways, if its so easy, I really would like to see your solos, so at least I know you arent all talk.
 
EDIT: Also, reapers wouldve been far easier for the jugg solo, and I think reapers are currently considered the easiest faction, not cerberus. I picked cerb to demonstate that dragoons wouldnt overcome the Jugg as people said they would. 

Modifié par Dorick, 27 février 2013 - 12:40 .

[Dorick]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Dorick wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Dorick wrote...

This kit's cons do not balance the pros, and does not balance in comparison to other kits. That's my opinion, ive clearly played him enough to form an opinion on experience, not speculation.

Yes, as long as you acknowledge it as them being your opinions (even based on what you've experienced) there's nothing that I could really say. There is really no basis for any kind of argument.

You could call me a name, threaten to hurt/harm me, or otherwise use an unrelated argument. It seems like a good number of posters are already doing that.

Geez. Why would you say something like that? I'm not equal to the "good number of posters" or even to any one of them. Either there is validity in your arguments or not. That's what I'm interested in.

It was satirical. Some really angry posters here, maybe its rubbed off on me. 

[billy the squid]

Dorick wrote...


This kit's cons do not balance the pros, and does not balance in comparison to other kits. That's my opinion, ive clearly played him enough to form an opinion on experience, not speculation. 

Clearly not. 

Can't run. (no fast ammo runs, no fast objective completions, no fast team revives)
Can't use soft cover properly.
Can't dodge so no DR.
Can't take cover.
Large target.
Lower DPS powers than the standard Geth characters, most soldier character classes actually.

Considering the dodge animations and Cover give a DR or block damage entirely the 2 key aspects of survivability which the Jugger just doesn't have, he has to tank it and take it in the face.

His speed is a liability using certain weapons. Harrier anyone? There is no possibility of fast play with the jugger, in the same way as the TGI or Kroguard which are potentially as tough and can potentially deal out far more damage.

The game is centred around how fast you kill something and whether you can use soft cover, DR and shield regen to absob damage. The Jugger has arguably 2 of these skills in abundance, yet gets utterly outclassed by the likes of the TGI, Kroguard, Geth trooper, GI, Drelldept, slayer, any infiltrator, most soldiers. when it comes to dealing damage.

 What you've used is two URs at a high lvl which deal heavy DPS with consumables on a class which has short comings in that area and then declared it OP, because you've mitigated the class' DPS short comings with lvl 10 weapons and equipment. Yet ignored the point that trying to do the same with a Harrier for instance is insane, due to the pitiful speed the character has. 

Geth Jugger, great for solo and tanking. Utter crap for team play and lacking if you don't have the weapons to buff his damage.

Modifié par billy the squid, 27 février 2013 - 12:44 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Dorick wrote...

It was satirical. Some really angry posters here, maybe its rubbed off on me.

When opinions clash, anger is usually the end result...

The thing is, nobody seems to define what exactly "balance" means. Everyone seems to have some notion of it in his/her mind. In the end, probably none of that matters. It's what BioWare decides that we'll all end up living with.

[Dorick]

billy the squid wrote...

Dorick wrote...


This kit's cons do not balance the pros, and does not balance in comparison to other kits. That's my opinion, ive clearly played him enough to form an opinion on experience, not speculation. 

 
Can't run. (no fast ammo runs, no fast objective completions, no fast team revives)
Can't use soft cover properly.
Can't dodge so no DR.
Can't take cover.
Large target.
Lower DPS powers than the standard Geth characters, most soldier character classes actually.

1: PPR needs no ammo, hardest objective for this kit is elimination, agree with the revives but dont consider it a balancing con. 
2: Can deploy cover
3: Siege pulse grants 40% dr
4: Can deploy cover, use right hand advantage
5: Not much larger than any krogan
6: Slightly lower DPS doesnt counter the pros of this kit. Hardly noticed it with my trusty PPR.

[billy the squid]

Dorick wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Dorick wrote...


This kit's cons do not balance the pros, and does not balance in comparison to other kits. That's my opinion, ive clearly played him enough to form an opinion on experience, not speculation. 

 
Can't run. (no fast ammo runs, no fast objective completions, no fast team revives)
Can't use soft cover properly.
Can't dodge so no DR.
Can't take cover.
Large target.
Lower DPS powers than the standard Geth characters, most soldier character classes actually.

1: PPR needs no ammo, hardest objective for this kit is elimination, agree with the revives but dont consider it a balancing con. 
2: Can deploy cover
3: Siege pulse grants 40% dr
4: Can deploy cover, use right hand advantage
5: Not much larger than any krogan
6: Slightly lower DPS doesnt counter the pros of this kit. Hardly noticed it with my trusty PPR.

Again. What you've done is make it entirely dependent on a single UR at a high lvl which has no need for ammo. So it's OP because PPR mitigates key failings. And the other weapons which don't?

The cover can be deployed, yet fails to block scion blasts, grenades, Praetorean lasers. The two attacks which consitantly bugger up most classes. And your team if they're daft can bring down the cover.

40 DR, like Barrier, or the TGI's instant shield regen, Krogan rage, adrenaline rush... there are a fair few powers which do the same or similar and the charcaters are far more manueverable and have full advantage of using cover, dodge, soft cover. The right hand advantage is available to most characters who can use it more effectively in combination with dodge and fast cover. For the Jugger it's a limitation.

Yet still larger and completely lacks the ability to run for it when one needs to redeploy.

You can't use a single weapon and declare OP. He's powerful undoubtedly. I've been using him with a GPS and GPSMG and he is a tank, being able to roll over most things. But he is very suseptible to getting surrounded and swarmed. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 27 février 2013 - 01:27 .

[born2beagator]

OP, notice you are the only one in 6 pages whining for a nerf? That should tell you both that you are mistaken, and that it is not going to happen.

and how many people actually have the PPR at a high level?  You can't call a class OP based on one weapon.  Try taking ammo weapons on this guy.  You are married to the ammo box area.

Modifié par born2beagator, 27 février 2013 - 01:27 .

[Schachmatt123]

billy the squid wrote...

Again. What you've done is make it entirely dependent on a single UR at a high lvl which has no need for ammo. So it's OP because PPR mitigates key failings. And the other weapons which don't?

The cover can be deployed, yet fails to block scion blasts, grenades, Praetorean lasers. The two attacks which consitantly bugger up most classes. And your team if they're daft can bring down the cover.

40 DR, like Barrier, or the TGI's instant shield regen, Krogan rage, adrenaline rush... there are a fair few powers which do the same or similar and the charcaters are far more manueverable and have full advantage of using cover, dodge, soft cover. The right hand advantage is available to most characters who can use it more effectively in combination with dodge and fast cover. For the Jugger it's a limitation.

Yet still larger and completely lacks the ability to run for it when one needs to redeploy.

You can't use a single weapon and declare OP. He's powerful undoubtedly. I've been using him with a GPS and GPSMG and he is a tank, being able to roll over most things. But he is very suseptible to getting surrounded and swarmed. 

Indeed. But the OP thinks you are bad and doing it wrong if this happens. But then again it's the same person who thinks using a kroguard equals missile glitching. Really no help there.

[ParanoiD86]

born2beagator wrote...

OP, notice you are the only one in 6 pages whining for a nerf? That should tell you both that you are mistaken, and that it is not going to happen.

and how many people actually have the PPR at a high level?  You can't call a class OP based on one weapon.  Try taking ammo weapons on this guy.  You are married to the ammo box area.

Exactly !! I personally only have my PPR on rank 3 (yeah bad UR luck) so I really can´t play a class that heavily depends on that weapon to not run out of ammo constantly. I simply have no PPR X.

Seriously try using the Harrier with the Juggernaut and you will find yourself camping the ammo crate all day long because if you run out of ammo on a big map the walk to an ammo crate takes time ... a LOT of time !!