60 réponses à ce sujet

[Palentor]

Isn't one of the Grey Warden's credos "Whatever it takes?", or along that line at least.

As for the decisions concerning allies it seemed pretty obvious for me on my first playthrough as a Dalish Elf.

Dalish / Werewolves: Dalish of course, even though it pratically played out that way anyway. An army needs long-range capability.

Mages / Templars: Mages for two reasons. One being that I needed the mages to help Connor. Second being that my army needed magic support and access to the Fade, rather than some lyrium-addled maniacs.

Anvil of the Void: Yes, golems would have been nice. But Branka was a no-go. Therefore I got some dwarves experienced in fighting darkspawn instead of some remote controlled rocks, and my army had some heavy infantry.

Bhelen / Harrowmount: Bhelen, as I thought I needed a reformer more than a traditionalist.

Urn of Sacred Ashes: By healing Arl Eamonn I knew someone influential would take care of the political side of the business, as by then a tear went through Ferelden and Civil War was almost inevitable. As an elf and outlaw I had to gain some political weight. Necessity dictated my course here.

Blood Magic: Never an issue here as I was mundane.

Loghain: Would have spared him for his value as military leader and figurehead, but Allistair actually showed some balls all of a sudden. Oh well, he killed an valuable asset.

All in all, a sound, well-rounded army minus one great strategist (who would have been useless anyway as his talents would have been wasted).

[bas273]

Not siding with the mages? That's like saying "we don't need artillery or explosives" to fight more modern wars. They bring the boom. The Wardens could use the boom. (Also, the templars STILL join if you side with the mages, at least they did for me)

You probably first sided with the mages and then told Greagoir that some of them could still be Blood Mages. Result: the Templars join your army.

[SusanStoHelit]

A very ruthless, pragmatic Grey Warden might make most of the choices you made - not all, but others have pointed out those differences I would have made even when playing that kind of character.

But yes, actual consequences for that would be nice. So you're ruthless and cause the (unnecessary) deaths of lots on innocents to get more power for yourself and the Wardens - I as a Ferelden citizen, or an elf, or a dwarf, would say 'thanks' and then tell you to bugger off and not come back. I'd spit on you, no statues for you, certainly no paragon status, and so on.

In fact, I'd see you pretty much the same way I already see Avernus and Sophia Dryden - people who thought that the end justifies the means. Well, look at the end they got.

Edit: Please note that I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't play that kind of Grey Warden. I'm just saying that there's always consequences - and even if the game doesn't provide them, I still think of them as being there. And Duncan also said that they (the wardens) shouldn't alienate the people who support them

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:02 .

[Creature 1]

I don't think bringing werewolves along in your army is a good idea. No doubt bad for morale, and probably leading to actual fighting among your own armies since a lot of the soldiers would find werewolves unbearably threatening.

[bas273]

Creature 1 wrote...

I don't think bringing werewolves along in your army is a good idea. No doubt bad for morale, and probably leading to actual fighting among your own armies since a lot of the soldiers would find werewolves unbearably threatening.

As Ser Jory says when you tell him you're a mage: "At least the magic is on our side this time" (or something like that).

You're fighting monsters. It's good to have some monsters with you who can tear them apart :innocent:.

[Ulicus]

Palentor wrote...

Anvil of the Void: Yes, golems would have been nice. But Branka was a no-go. Therefore I got some dwarves experienced in fighting darkspawn instead of some remote controlled rocks, and my army had some heavy infantry.

FWIW, you get the dwarves and the golems if you keep the anvil. I did, anyway. Even if you didn't, though, the anvil seems far too useful to destroy. Not only in the context of the Blight but also in serving the dwarven efforts against the darkspawn in the Deep Roads.

Modifié par Ulicus, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:12 .

[bas273]

Ulicus wrote...

Palentor wrote...

Anvil of the Void: Yes, golems would have been nice. But Branka was a no-go. Therefore I got some dwarves experienced in fighting darkspawn instead of some remote controlled rocks, and my army had some heavy infantry.

FWIW, you get the dwarves and the golems if you keep the anvil. I did, anyway. Even if you didn't, though, the anvil seems far too useful to destroy. Not only in the context of the Blight but also in serving the dwarven efforts against the darkspawn in the Deep Roads.

And you can even convince the Legion of the Dead to join your army as well ;-)

Legion of the Dead + Dwarves + Golems

[Kenshen]

The Grey Wardens have a treaties with the Dalish elves so siding with the werewolves is not what a grey warden should do. One thing is each person is different except having the taint so how one person might handle a situation doesn't mean another GW would do the same.



If a GW is all business then I doubt one would even do half of the side quests available. I have never seen it said in game but I also do not think the GW's are above the law. With a blight coming on I bet you could get away with more than if there wasn't one but in the end I believe a GW would be held accountable for there actions.

[Creature 1]

bas273 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

I don't think bringing werewolves along in your army is a good idea. No doubt bad for morale, and probably leading to actual fighting among your own armies since a lot of the soldiers would find werewolves unbearably threatening.

As Ser Jory says when you tell him you're a mage: "At least the magic is on our side this time" (or something like that).

You're fighting monsters. It's good to have some monsters with you who can tear them apart :innocent:.

Mages are frequently on the right side of the conflict, although they get kept in a box when not needed so they don't cause trouble.  Monsters are *never* on the right side of the conflict.  I'm skeptical that suddenly dropping werewolves into an army on its way to a very scary battle would really work out. 

[bas273]

I agree that Werewolves are not very reliable but the same applies to Mages. Look at the mess in the Circle Tower, the Deserted Building in Denerim and all those Blood Mages throughout the game... some mages are men and some men are power-hungry and go the Blood Mage route.

[frylock23]

The good news for all of us is that no matter how you play, the Blight will be defeated. However, there is a lot to what people are saying about the aftermath. People are fond of saying "the means justify the ends." They usually forget to add "... but at what cost?" I like that the epilogue dialogue adds that for you every time.



If you make every ruthless, expedient decision as soon as you can, what will people remember about you and the Grey Wardens once the general relief at still being alive has faded? Duncan was cautious about using the Right of Conscription and rebuked Alistair for antagonizing people needlessly. The Grey Wardens as an order have only recently been allowed to operate in Ferelden again after having been kicked out.



In fact, Grey Wardens are such an unknown in Ferelden that despite the fact that they fight the Blight above all else, Loghain flips out and dives off the deep end over the mere suggestion of more Grey Wardens in his territory. I understand that he does because they are Orlaisian, but that's how little the Wardens are known in Ferelden.



If you march to victory over the Archdemon over the corpses of the little people who got in your way, how have you improved the value and perception of the order in the eyes of the people? How long do you think it will be before they begin to mistrust you again, hampering future efforts by your order to combat darkspawn?

[frylock23]

I agree that Werewolves are not very reliable but the same applies to Mages. Look at the mess in the Circle Tower, the Deserted Building in Denerim and all those Blood Mages throughout the game... some mages are men and some men are power-hungry and go the Blood Mage route.

And some dogs go rabid, too, but I see the blood mages as a symptom of the way society treats mages. You are torn away from your family at a young age, and they may be so afraid of what they think you will be that they repudiate you entirely. You get force-marched to a tall tower by a bunch of big men in concealing armor. They proceed to lock you into that Tower for life unless someone makes a convincing argument for you to be allowed out.



Did you see any windows in the Circle Tower? I didn't. That's how locked away you are and not by choice.



Given such treatment, I'm surprised that there aren't more mage revolts actually. The tower practically qualifies as a ghetto like the alienage in some aspects.

[SusanStoHelit]

frylock23 wrote...

If you march to victory over the Archdemon over the corpses of the little people who got in your way, how have you improved the value and perception of the order in the eyes of the people? How long do you think it will be before they begin to mistrust you again, hampering future efforts by your order to combat darkspawn?

Exactly. Grey Wardens are not just about defeating this blight, this Archdemon. But all of them, now and in the future. And your choices will affect that.

[RangerSG]

bas273 wrote...

I agree that Werewolves are not very reliable but the same applies to Mages. Look at the mess in the Circle Tower, the Deserted Building in Denerim and all those Blood Mages throughout the game... some mages are men and some men are power-hungry and go the Blood Mage route.

And some Templars aren't power-hungry or mad? And what do you think Cullen was? Nonsense.

Duncan actively recruited mages, why wouldn't you? In fact, he goes over the top of Gregoir to recruit mages.

From a Grey Warden's perspective, I already have lots of guys in metal suits. But I don't have a lot of magic. I do know, however, I will be FACING a lot of magic. 

Oh, and if you play a mage and ask about blood magic in the Origin, Duncan gives a big shrug, btw. He says that the members of the Grey Wardens have used Blood Magic to stop darkspawn in the past. Unless you're a Chantry-spouting Grey Warden, the threat of the Blight is much greater than the threat of Blood Magic (another point Duncan makes).

So no, on every point, there's no reason to side with the Templars just because they want to annihilate the Circle. "Chantry business is not our concern." As a Grey Warden, your concern should be finding out the truth, and THEN deciding if you think the mages will still be useful. Not simply listening to a Chantry fanatic.

Modifié par RangerSG, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:36 .

[Inzhuna]

I think the key word here is GREY, meaning not taking sides: you don't do evil things on intention, nor do you go to great extents to help poor people/save kittens etc.

[RangerSG]

Inzhuna wrote...

I think the key word here is GREY, meaning not taking sides: you don't do evil things on intention, nor do you go to great extents to help poor people/save kittens etc.

True, which is why I said you'd find out the truth for yourself. Not rely on someone else's version of events to make a decision.

Also, if you're a dwarf noble, you know perfectly well how the crisis in Orzammar started. In that case, you'd be an idiot to trust Bhelen enough to follow through on his commitment. Dwarvan politics or no, you need to be able to rely on your allies. Bhelen is easily the most treacherous snake in the game.

[SusanStoHelit]

RangerSG wrote...

Also, if you're a dwarf noble, you know perfectly well how the crisis in Orzammar started. In that case, you'd be an idiot to trust Bhelen enough to follow through on his commitment. Dwarvan politics or no, you need to be able to rely on your allies. Bhelen is easily the most treacherous snake in the game.

Hmmm ... more likely consequences for choices. If you include werewolves - driven by a frenzy they attack your allies and the enemy indiscrimately during the battle of Denerim, and then go on a rampage throughout Ferelden.

You choose Bhelen - and the treacherous bastard doesn't show up with the dwarves.

You accept Loghain - and he plays nice until you get to the Archdemon - and then the deranged psychopath makes you take the blow regardless of what you wanted.

[LoneStarGazer]

FKSSR wrote...

I respectively disagree. I believe that part of being a Grey Warden is being just and (generally) good. What's the worth of saving the world if it is a dark place full of selfish people.

I see Grey Wardens a lot like knights. There are tough decisions as you mentioned, but they still have to have some sort of heart and soul behind them. Otherwise, there is little difference between you and the darkspawn you're fighting.

Anyway, I think you know where I'm going with it, so I'll leave it at that.

One of the characters I really like is Wynne, with her wise advice. (I love that "finger shaking speech".) She gives the main character the speech that the Grey Warden's duty is to protect all mankind . . . men, dwarves, elves, and the role is larger than merely stopping the Blight.

Loghain is IMO the culmination of the "hard choices" school -- in the end, he just screws up the world worse than it was before. It's because he ends up making so many hard choices he loses sight of the values that made him great in the first place.

As a practical matter, if you don't help people in their individual problems along the way, you miss out on a lot of interesting quest lines.

[SarEnyaDor]

But you only get 3 lousy golems out of that deal - sooo not worth the bad karma.

[RangerSG]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Also, if you're a dwarf noble, you know perfectly well how the crisis in Orzammar started. In that case, you'd be an idiot to trust Bhelen enough to follow through on his commitment. Dwarvan politics or no, you need to be able to rely on your allies. Bhelen is easily the most treacherous snake in the game.

Hmmm ... more likely consequences for choices. If you include werewolves - driven by a frenzy they attack your allies and the enemy indiscrimately during the battle of Denerim, and then go on a rampage throughout Ferelden.

You choose Bhelen - and the treacherous bastard doesn't show up with the dwarves.

You accept Loghain - and he plays nice until you get to the Archdemon - and then the deranged psychopath makes you take the blow regardless of what you wanted.

True, there's consequences for choices everywhere. Now as for Loghain, I can see a Grey Warden making either choice if you're choosing on the grounds of stopping the Blight alone. Riordin puts forward the argument for a GW sparing Loghain best. He's a great warrior. More, he's a symbol. If you bring him under your authority, nothing can unify the nation more. But if you're convinced of his treachery, you very well may decide he's not salvagable no matter what.

If you don't know what Bhelen did, then there's no good grounds to choose between the two on. They're both playing politics with you, and you know it.

[Asante81]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

But you only get 3 lousy golems out of that deal - sooo not worth the bad karma.

*laughs*
The only golem worth it is Shale anyway.... and pleasing HER gives good karma

[AtreiyaN7]

Becoming a Grey Warden doesn't mean you stop being the person you were before the Joining. If you hold certain beliefs about right and wrong, then you still retain them after becoming a Warden. The "ideal" Warden might be a cold-hearted, ruthless bastard, but I imagine that your character's morals (if they have any) would still influence you character's actions despite being told that Wardens must do whatever it takes to stop a Blight.

Looking at the werewolf issue from the standpoint of a Warden who tends to try to do good, I would say that no, it is not necessary to keep the werewolves as the best option. If I can do what is required (gather an army) AND end a cycle of violence and hate (not to mention ending what is an unjustifiable curse at this point), then I will do that. Arguably, it's also more useful from my Warden's perspective to have skilled archers than melee-centric werewolves, especially since I already have the dwarven army & the soldiers from Redcliffe (and the mages too). An emissary has the capability to shut the werewolves down and chunk them after all, so I'm not convinced of their overwhelming superiority.

On the Orzammar king issue: unless you're meta-gaming, there's no way to tell who would ultimately be a better king. On the surface, as the candidate who appeared most honorable and decent, I picked Harrowmont (and I still will every time, even knowning what happens). Do I still achieve my ends? Yes. Is the person I picked an upstanding individual? Yes (I think).  Is it ideal for dwarven society? Not really, nope - kind of a bad choice, but it's my decision to make. Wardens aren't perfect.

As for the Anvil: sorry, I have my limits as someone who is basically decent despite being a Warden. I can't justify allowing it to be used, knowing what I know about it after speaking to Caridin. It has been abused by a past king, and if left intact it will be abused again in time. Do I still achieve my ends if I destroy it? Yes, because I unified the dwarves and have an army to back me. Would it be nice to have golems? Yes, but it is not strictly necessary and is not worth the price.

Anyhow, like  I said - this is strictly because I play my various Wardens as basically decent people with a strong sense of justice, and they don't change all that much from who they were before the Joining. Certainly, they will do what's necessary to stop a Blight, but they're not going to stop trying do as much good as possible along the way - of course, if it's absolutely necessary, then they will go with the ruthless option if there is no other alternative.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:22 .

[le_cygne]

RangerSG wrote...

If you don't know what Bhelen did, then there's no good grounds to choose between the two on. They're both playing politics with you, and you know it.

True enough, but even without the Dwarf Noble backstory, Team Bhelen deliberately goes out of its way to deceive the Warden, and Vartag will admit as much if he's called on it. For my apolitical--but vengeful--City Elf, that was your Epic Fail right there, Bhelen. For a "Blight above all" Warden looking for a reliable ally, I'd imagine the result would be the same, unless the character never discovered the deception. 

At least so far as I'm aware, Harrowmont's dealings with the Warden are honorable.

Granted, I can see the argument that reformer Bhelen could be a better ally to the surfacers in the future than isolationist Harrowmont, but a trustworthy ally he is not.

Modifié par le_cygne, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:25 .

[RangerSG]

le_cygne wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

If you don't know what Bhelen did, then there's no good grounds to choose between the two on. They're both playing politics with you, and you know it.

True enough, but even without the Dwarf Noble backstory, Team Bhelen deliberately goes out of its way to deceive the Warden, and Vartag will admit as much if he's called on it. For my apolitical--but vengeful--City Elf, that was your Epic Fail right there, Bhelen. For a "Blight above all" Warden looking for a reliable ally, I'd imagine the result would be the same, unless the character never discovered the deception. 

At least so far as I'm aware, Harrowmont's dealings with the Warden are honorable.

Granted, I can see the argument that reformer Bhelen could be a better ally to the surfacers in the future than isolationist Harrowmont, but a trustworthy ally he is not.

True, if you detect the deception. But you have to dig a bit to do so. If your goal is to simply unify the dwarves and get out of there before the storm hits, you probably will never find out. My point was simply that it's very easy to not know what's up with the dwarves, and then you're choosing between two flawed candidates, both of whom, according to the masses, are playing politics when they should be protecting their people.

[SusanStoHelit]

Yep, my non-dwarf (human noble) character asked Vartag a few questions, and he all but admitted Bhelen's guilt. Now it wasn't his murderous behaviour that was the stumbling block for that character, but he was intimately familiar with what can happen when you trust allies who are simply not to be trusted, who are treacherous. The massacre of his family and household just illustrated the foolishness of trusting Bhelen in any way, shape, or form.



I had intended to side with Bhelen. The king's son, you know, and my character was a noble - and didn't know about Bhelen. But when it was revealed at that point - I couldn't go ahead with my initial plan of siding with Bhelen on that playthrough. It just wouldn't work.