207 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

Liamv2 wrote...

This won't end well

This thread was started by someone who clearly doesn't know just how dreadful Origins is to play on a console.  If anyone can **** about a crappy port, it's people who played Origins on consoles.

Bioware's niche has never been technology.  If you want graphical innovation, go to id.  I play these games for the story, characters, and gameplay, not for the latest graphical gewgaws (which is good, because my computer probably couldn't handle them anyway).

I'd like it if they made more interface customization options to take advantage of the versatility and precision of the keyboard and mouse, but other than that, I really don't care.

[Gorguz]

Goneaviking wrote...

Talking about his penis was probably a bad idea if you wanted to be taken seriously.

Lol. It was an e-penis joke. They didn't get it. Or it was just a bad joke. :innocent:

[Tootles FTW]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

How about trying to make sure everybody has a good experience, with UIs that fit their respective input devices?

Why some people feel their platform is so special and needs to be better at the expense of the experience of those on other platforms, I'll never understand. I need to swap discs all the time in ME3, do I begrudge those on PS3 and PC who don't need to do so? Not at all.

^^^^^^this.

[D_Thoran]

Gorguz wrote...

D_Thoran wrote...
Logic?  It's absolute garbage posts like this that ruin otherwise good threads.  Go away and let the grown ups talk.

Yes because it is logic to develope games for a target from which you gain less profit. And shs should reward those who spend thounsands of dollars to paly a game.
Really? That's your "mature" ideas? You are the big boy who can teach lessons to underages? Please, shut up. The op is pretentious garbage, and the thread is getting worst as you talk about "hardcore gamers" like you are one of them, while you are nothing but a casual who cares only about fancy graphic.

First of all, I was refering to all the cursing and epeen garbage in the post that sounded like a 12 year old using cuss words when mommy isn't home.  Had nothing to do with the post at all, and contributed nothing to the thread.  My idea was, and always has been that I am tired of lazy, uninspired ports, designed for outdated systems that become impossible to play on a PC, when the title was a PC title to begin with.  I am of the thought that some things will sell better and make more money, if they are in fact good, instead of releasing something half-baked that sucks for a big percentage of your market.  (and there are more PC players and owners than console)  There is nothing about "hardcore" or "fancy graphics" or anything else in the original post.  Nor have I ever said one group of owners was better than the other.  In fact, if you brush up on your reading skills you might actually learn something. Good try though.

Modifié par D_Thoran, 08 mars 2013 - 10:29 .

[D_Thoran]

chesschamp wrote...

So much of this degraded into consoles vs PC, which is such an awful debate. There are so many reasons someone would choose one or the other. Regardless, none of that is relevant here. The OP is suggesting that games should be developed first for the PC to avoid crappy ports. Just like console players would be upset about a game performing like ****, PC gamers are too (though it's usually motivated by a game being unplayable due to UI or unwieldy controls)--and much more frequently as of late. That being said, I don't know that the solution is to develop for PC "first," but to have a team that actually understands the PC as a platform. The dichotomy of gamers expect their game to perform within certain parameters on their platform, some of which can even be genre-dependent. Having a developer that understands this is the most important element to success of ports, as dirty a word as it's become in the gaming world.

This, in a nutshell.  Thank you for addressing the issue at hand.  It just always seemed to me that when a game was developed to be the best that your average PC could play, it was successfully ported down to console specs, and since console players run on lower end hardware on average, everyone was happy with the product they got.  This has not been true when a game has been designed around the console hardware, playstyle and control scheme, then ported poorly to the PC, without basic things like remapping, keybinding, ect.  I should never be forced to use a gamepad on a PC.  That screams bad port right from the start.  

People suggesting this is only about graphics are clearly missing the point, and people turning this into a PC vs console war are just trying to start a fight.  This should be about getting the best game your money can buy, whatever system you are on.  PC users lately have been getting very, very bad ports.  This, to be is unacceptable, even though I could play on a console if I wanted, the game is often not as good.

Modifié par D_Thoran, 08 mars 2013 - 10:42 .

[Sanunes]

D_Thoran wrote...

chesschamp wrote...

So much of this degraded into consoles vs PC, which is such an awful debate. There are so many reasons someone would choose one or the other. Regardless, none of that is relevant here. The OP is suggesting that games should be developed first for the PC to avoid crappy ports. Just like console players would be upset about a game performing like ****, PC gamers are too (though it's usually motivated by a game being unplayable due to UI or unwieldy controls)--and much more frequently as of late. That being said, I don't know that the solution is to develop for PC "first," but to have a team that actually understands the PC as a platform. The dichotomy of gamers expect their game to perform within certain parameters on their platform, some of which can even be genre-dependent. Having a developer that understands this is the most important element to success of ports, as dirty a word as it's become in the gaming world.

This, in a nutshell.  Thank you for addressing the issue at hand.  It just always seemed to me that when a game was developed to be the best that your average PC could play, it was successfully ported down to console specs, and since console players run on lower end hardware on average, everyone was happy with the product they got.  This has not been true when a game has been designed around the console hardware, playstyle and control scheme, then ported poorly to the PC, without basic things like remapping, keybinding, ect.  I should never be forced to use a gamepad on a PC.  That screams bad port right from the start.  

People suggesting this is only about graphics are clearly missing the point, and people turning this into a PC vs console war are just trying to start a fight.  This should be about getting the best game your money can buy, whatever system you are on.  PC users lately have been getting very, very bad ports.  This, to be is unacceptable, even though I could play on a console if I wanted, the game is often not as good.

I really want to know why you are still calling what the PC is getting a port for they really aren't.  A port is taking a game and moving it to another platform that it wasn't orginally wasn't designed for, such as the Wii-U version of Mass Effect 3, the PS3 version of Mass Effect 1 and 2, the PC version of Mass Effect 1, or the console version of Dragon Age: Origins. They developed Mass Effect 3 for the PC/PS3/360 all at the same time.

Game develpers have been developing for the lowest common denominator for the longest time and its not going to change because PC gamers want it to.  The developers don't want to have two different products on the market and that is what will happen if they differ the game any more then controls schemes.

[D_Thoran]

 ^  Some games that is true. Mass effect 3 being one example. Others are very clearly ports. The main problem is when a game is designed for one particular system or style over another. You have a slew of games out that are passable on consoles, but horrible for PC. If you are going to design a game to be even considered successful or remotely playable on a PC, there are certain things that must be addressed, mainly control schemes, ui's, keymapping, ect. It's never been about graphics for me, but some will insist on beating that tired old horse till it's beyond dead.

When you get a game clearly designed for the consoles, it sometimes feels as if it were moved to the PC as merely an afterthought, with control schemes and such being clearly designed around a console, with zero changed or added to make the game playable, or even appeal to the PC user.

Case in point, dungeon siege 3. A game designed for PC's originally, (1&2) was a good game for it's time, and was well received. Then you have the most current version, where it was clearly decided to stray from the original game and cater to the console crowd. The result was a game that was playable on consoles, and not horrible, but unplayable on PC.

So I see the point you are trying to make, but I just don't think it applies to all games. More recently it has applied to some, but a majority of games are made with one system in mind, and recoded for another after the fact. (which is why you sometimes have such differing release dates)

All I am asking for is when a developer sits down to design a game and release it on the PC, that they release a version designed FOR a PC, and that they pay the same attention to consoles. It feels like many times the game is designed around the lowest factor (consoles) and the PC users get what they get. We deserve better. Not because we are better, or master race or any of that trollish crap, but simply because we deserve a game we can play. Our money spends just like everyone else. If I wanted to play on my custom built gaming rig with a gamepad, I would simply play my son's console of the month.

Modifié par D_Thoran, 09 mars 2013 - 03:11 .

[D_Thoran]

As an afterthought, I would love to see a dev jump in here and shed some light on the subject. Is the game in fact being built around the PC and ported to the consoles, or is it the other way around, or all at the same time? Are we (PC) going to get a game that requires us to use a gamepad, with a crappy UI and control scheme, designed around consoles, or are we going to get a game that can utilize the full range of our input devices, and take advantage of our hardware?

The PC needs different ui, and keymapping, keybinding, mouse and keyboard support, and changable resolutions as pretty much standard equipment for the game to be good, or even worth buying. Are we getting that, or are we getting something clearly not designed for PC's? I'd like to know. I love the franchise, but I'd rather spend my money on something I can play. We don't need another DA 2.

[Realmzmaster]

Built for the PC first? Which PC requirements are you talking about? Are you saying that the developers should program their games for the latest and greatest video card leaving a great majority of PC gamers unable to play the game on their current setups? That the requirements should be 8 GB of Ram with an I7 quad core processor. Are you saying that those PC gamers should run out and upgrade their systems? I guess I will have to invest in a next gen console for game playing because it would be cheaper than purchasing a new gaming computer. My current computer setup meets everything I need for work.

Also Dungeon Siege was declining before it reach the consoles. Dungeon Siege 1 let the gamer save anywhere, had combat automation and was very moddable. Dungeon Siege 2 took away that ability to save anywhere and the combat automation requiring the gamer to click for every attack. You had to remember to hold the right button continuously to get autoattack on a enemy. So the decline in Dungeon Siege happened before Dungeon Siege 3 IMHO. Also Dungeon Siege 3 was not developed by Gas Powered Games but Obsidan Entertainment for Square Enix so the emphasis on the console especially the PS3 was not surprising.

Games are not going to be built with the PC in mind first. The PC is no longer the dominant gaming platform. I simply want developers to make better use of the control systems for the PC.

[Reidbynature]

Tootles FTW wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

How about trying to make sure everybody has a good experience, with UIs that fit their respective input devices?

Why some people feel their platform is so special and needs to be better at the expense of the experience of those on other platforms, I'll never understand. I need to swap discs all the time in ME3, do I begrudge those on PS3 and PC who don't need to do so? Not at all.

^^^^^^this.

Seconded.  I never got the 'platform wars' myself.  What a waste of time and effort for something so meaningless.

[Sanunes]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Games are not going to be built with the PC in mind first. The PC is no longer the dominant gaming platform. I simply want developers to make better use of the control systems for the PC.

Just going to quote this one small part.  I think this is the important part of this topic.  For I get why there is a "one button for everything" on a controller, but using the spacebar for everything is frustrating when my keyboard has 104 keys and my mouse has five buttons.

[Oberkaiser]

Designing and implementing a tile-based inventory for PC is literally a two week job for an intern. Unless they have to hire 30k/hour programming architects just to read their shi tty engine code.

Modifié par Oberkaiser, 09 mars 2013 - 07:25 .

[Wickwrackscar]

I really don't care for what platform they develop the game, as long as the end result is a product I can enjoy. They can develop it for the iPhone or for a NASA supercomputer. But as many here pointed out, it is a good idea to make good use of the possibilities the PC input devices offer.

On a related note, Im not quite sure what role the PC will play in the future gaming market. What I see, is that the PC is becoming less and less common in the average household. Most people's basic needs for computing (surfing, messaging, online-shopping, watching movies, social media, playing casual games, etc. ) are already satisfied with tablets. And those are much cheaper. So I guess the PC gaming market will become much smaller in the future or more specialized in some form. Interesting times indeed.

But I don't have a crystal ball, so don't sue me if I'm wrong.

Back OT:
Make DA3 an enjoyable experience. Don't care which way you take to get there.

[Gorguz]

D_Thoran wrote...
My idea was, and always has been that I am tired of lazy, uninspired ports, designed for outdated systems that become impossible to play on a PC, when the title was a PC title to begin with.  I am of the thought that some things will sell better and make more money, if they are in fact good, instead of releasing something half-baked that sucks for a big percentage of your market.

If the market is on consoles, there should be a reason. LOGIC suggests that the reason is that they gain more profit from consoles. It is irrelevant that there are more pc gamers than console gamers, it's the money the crucial factor. And if bioware is going to make a bad  port to pc of da: i it's because they think that it's not worthy to do a good one, not because of lazyness. 
If you are tired of bad ports, then buy a console (the smaller penis I was talking about), but do not whine on their forums saying "we deserve better, screw the consoles they are outdated systems", because they have nothing to do with YOUR choice, and they don't care either.

[TUHD]

Gorguz wrote...

D_Thoran wrote...
My idea was, and always has been that I am tired of lazy, uninspired ports, designed for outdated systems that become impossible to play on a PC, when the title was a PC title to begin with.  I am of the thought that some things will sell better and make more money, if they are in fact good, instead of releasing something half-baked that sucks for a big percentage of your market.

If the market is on consoles, there should be a reason. LOGIC suggests that the reason is that they gain more profit from consoles. It is irrelevant that there are more pc gamers than console gamers, it's the money the crucial factor. And if bioware is going to make a bad  port to pc of da: i it's because they think that it's not worthy to do a good one, not because of lazyness. 
If you are tired of bad ports, then buy a console (the smaller penis I was talking about), but do not whine on their forums saying "we deserve better, screw the consoles they are outdated systems", because they have nothing to do with YOUR choice, and they don't care either.

LOLWUT? You do realize that especially the lifespan of RPGs depend also on the community. Nice and stuff that you sell to consoles, but so far the 'lasting legends' are in general 'lasting legends' because they had an dedicated community which also supported the games by modding and improving on it. One of the few exceptions to this case is Metal Gear Solid (Playstation-only) and Halo (which was on PC a shoddy port).

Everyone makes their choice on which platform they play. However, when you notice that a lot of games for the PC which are multiplatform run out outdated code (just for example, the earlier mentioned Street Fighter 4 ran just 5-10 FPS on my rig, which far exceeded the recommended specs. FIVE TO TEN!). UIs which don't get changed (FIFA, I'm looking at you), non-changable keys (too much games to mention), keys which can only get changed from the menu before starting the game (once again, too much to mention), necessary QTE-keys which get shown as on an consolepad while I'm clearly playing with keyboard and mouse (IE, SW:TFU 1), etc.

I saw footage of DA1 on consoles. Was it bad? Aye. But does that happen to consolegamers? Rarely. Do PC-gamers often get 'a bone' just as an afterthought. Way more often then I'd like.
And then devs and distributors are starting to complain about the piracy on the PC. Sure, there was piracy before this trend (including draconian DRM) started to happen. But it was small-scale. It grew FAST when the PC-gamers started to get treated as second-rate customers after the console-customers.
And yes, people will start to take it out on the consoles then if they notice they are getting treated bad by game companies because of the profitmargin on the consoles.

[D_Thoran]

Sanunes wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Games are not going to be built with the PC in mind first. The PC is no longer the dominant gaming platform. I simply want developers to make better use of the control systems for the PC.

Just going to quote this one small part.  I think this is the important part of this topic.  For I get why there is a "one button for everything" on a controller, but using the spacebar for everything is frustrating when my keyboard has 104 keys and my mouse has five buttons.

And this is a dominant area when considering control schemes for PC games, and where most ports (or games designed for consoles) fall very, very flat.  A game in this day and age, designed and released for a PC, without the most basic elements included like keymapping, and other basic mouse and keyboard functions is just beyond terrible.  It's inexcusable on the part of designers to overlook something so crucial to the game.

[jkflipflopDAO]

D_Thoran wrote...

Sanunes wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Games are not going to be built with the PC in mind first. The PC is no longer the dominant gaming platform. I simply want developers to make better use of the control systems for the PC.

Just going to quote this one small part.  I think this is the important part of this topic.  For I get why there is a "one button for everything" on a controller, but using the spacebar for everything is frustrating when my keyboard has 104 keys and my mouse has five buttons.

And this is a dominant area when considering control schemes for PC games, and where most ports (or games designed for consoles) fall very, very flat.  A game in this day and age, designed and released for a PC, without the most basic elements included like keymapping, and other basic mouse and keyboard functions is just beyond terrible.  It's inexcusable on the part of designers to overlook something so crucial to the game.

Especially considering youre building the game on a PC in the first place, you have the M+KB right there in your hands already. How crappy UI's make it out to us is beyond me.

[D_Thoran]

Gorguz wrote...

D_Thoran wrote...
My idea was, and always has been that I am tired of lazy, uninspired ports, designed for outdated systems that become impossible to play on a PC, when the title was a PC title to begin with.  I am of the thought that some things will sell better and make more money, if they are in fact good, instead of releasing something half-baked that sucks for a big percentage of your market.

If the market is on consoles, there should be a reason. LOGIC suggests that the reason is that they gain more profit from consoles. It is irrelevant that there are more pc gamers than console gamers, it's the money the crucial factor. And if bioware is going to make a bad  port to pc of da: i it's because they think that it's not worthy to do a good one, not because of lazyness. 
If you are tired of bad ports, then buy a console (the smaller penis I was talking about), but do not whine on their forums saying "we deserve better, screw the consoles they are outdated systems", because they have nothing to do with YOUR choice, and they don't care either.

Let's deal with these one at a time.  If there are in fact more PC than console gamers, it's nowhere near logical to alienate them with poor game design.  Second, to deem PC players as "not worthy" to deserve a good game smacks of the elitism you accuse PC players of, so theres that.  Third, I own nearly every console (or have owned) that has been designed since probably intellivision, or maybe before, so that argument is invalid.  Fouth,  I have never said anything in the realm if "screw consoles, or we deserve better".  I suggest reading comprehension.  You may want to read the entire range of posts before you comment.  I have.

[D_Thoran]

TUHD wrote...

Gorguz wrote...

D_Thoran wrote...
My idea was, and always has been that I am tired of lazy, uninspired ports, designed for outdated systems that become impossible to play on a PC, when the title was a PC title to begin with.  I am of the thought that some things will sell better and make more money, if they are in fact good, instead of releasing something half-baked that sucks for a big percentage of your market.

If the market is on consoles, there should be a reason. LOGIC suggests that the reason is that they gain more profit from consoles. It is irrelevant that there are more pc gamers than console gamers, it's the money the crucial factor. And if bioware is going to make a bad  port to pc of da: i it's because they think that it's not worthy to do a good one, not because of lazyness. 
If you are tired of bad ports, then buy a console (the smaller penis I was talking about), but do not whine on their forums saying "we deserve better, screw the consoles they are outdated systems", because they have nothing to do with YOUR choice, and they don't care either.

LOLWUT? You do realize that especially the lifespan of RPGs depend also on the community. Nice and stuff that you sell to consoles, but so far the 'lasting legends' are in general 'lasting legends' because they had an dedicated community which also supported the games by modding and improving on it. One of the few exceptions to this case is Metal Gear Solid (Playstation-only) and Halo (which was on PC a shoddy port).

Everyone makes their choice on which platform they play. However, when you notice that a lot of games for the PC which are multiplatform run out outdated code (just for example, the earlier mentioned Street Fighter 4 ran just 5-10 FPS on my rig, which far exceeded the recommended specs. FIVE TO TEN!). UIs which don't get changed (FIFA, I'm looking at you), non-changable keys (too much games to mention), keys which can only get changed from the menu before starting the game (once again, too much to mention), necessary QTE-keys which get shown as on an consolepad while I'm clearly playing with keyboard and mouse (IE, SW:TFU 1), etc.

I saw footage of DA1 on consoles. Was it bad? Aye. But does that happen to consolegamers? Rarely. Do PC-gamers often get 'a bone' just as an afterthought. Way more often then I'd like.
And then devs and distributors are starting to complain about the piracy on the PC. Sure, there was piracy before this trend (including draconian DRM) started to happen. But it was small-scale. It grew FAST when the PC-gamers started to get treated as second-rate customers after the console-customers.
And yes, people will start to take it out on the consoles then if they notice they are getting treated bad by game companies because of the profitmargin on the consoles.

Nice way to sum up some of the major problems and concerns.  The main reasons I started this thread.  (perhaps I titled it badly, but I digress)  I think the point has been made exceedingly well.  It's not that I (or PC gamers in general, although some may) hate consoles.  It's that we are tired of getting the uninspired, horribly designed castoffs of games that were clearly designed exclusively for console money market, and the PC players get thrown a bone as an afterthought.  That how many of these games feel.  I am just so tired of our platform, the originator of the video game genre, being overlooked simply for the sake of greed.  We deserve better, as we are the ones getting sub par offerings, not console players.

Modifié par D_Thoran, 10 mars 2013 - 02:13 .

[LTD]

I remember the times when even the mere idea of making a proper cRPG for consoles and pads was utterly ridiculous. AFAIK nothing has really changed from those days. Yet there exists a significant amount of  people who actually want to play an RPG like DA:O on consoles. With a pad. Curved. Swords.

Depth, combat, and inventory managment of crpgs greatly suffers from this difficult-to-explain phenomena.

Silly peasants and their ignorant ways.

Modifié par LTD, 10 mars 2013 - 02:19 .

[Dragoonlordz]

@Bioware just make sure you optimize the game for the PC retail version as much as you optimize for console (don't give PC players half arsed version suited for consoles, the PC version needs to be optimized for that platform as much as you optimize the console version for consoles).

It would annoy console players if they had poor UI, controls and visuals not optimized for their console just like does for a lot of PC players on their platform when happens to them. Meaning make use of DX11, allow key-mapping and keep K/M in mind for the PC variation. Ideally also make the PC UI done well and suited for the PC version.

Do all that and I don't see much of a problem. If I bought it on a console I would hope the UI, controls are well suited to that platform and for graphics make use of what that platform is capable of allowing just like I would desire equal refinement and attention paid towards the PC platform capabilities for the PC version of the game.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 mars 2013 - 03:23 .

[Firky]

Personally, gfx don't bother me much.

But I'd still really dig click to move and a higher view camera. I see those as PC interface things, like the very basic ones.

[adlocutio]

I may be wrong, but I've heard the rumors so far that the next consoles will have a more PC-like architecture, and I think the *720* is intended to run some version of windows 8. Maybe RT? IDK. If so it would seem it might be most efficient to start on PC then port to consoles.

Likely Microsoft and Sony have heard the bellyaching from devs for so long that they will make the whole next generation process easier on everyone, which hopefully will lead to better ports all around.

As others have said, the UI tends to be the sore thumb for ports. That should be a point of focus in DA:I

[D_Thoran]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

@Bioware just make sure you optimize the game for the PC retail version as much as you optimize for console (don't give PC players half arsed version suited for consoles, the PC version needs to be optimized for that platform as much as you optimize the console version for consoles).

It would annoy console players if they had poor UI, controls and visuals not optimized for their console just like does for a lot of PC players on their platform when happens to them. Meaning make use of DX11, allow key-mapping and keep K/M in mind for the PC variation. Ideally also make the PC UI done well and suited for the PC version.

Do all that and I don't see much of a problem. If I bought it on a console I would hope the UI, controls are well suited to that platform and for graphics make use of what that platform is capable of allowing just like I would desire equal refinement and attention paid towards the PC platform capabilities for the PC version of the game.

Very well said.  Sometimes eloquence escapes me, especially at 3 in the morning.

[D_Thoran]

adlocutio wrote...

I may be wrong, but I've heard the rumors so far that the next consoles will have a more PC-like architecture, and I think the *720* is intended to run some version of windows 8. Maybe RT? IDK. If so it would seem it might be most efficient to start on PC then port to consoles.

Likely Microsoft and Sony have heard the bellyaching from devs for so long that they will make the whole next generation process easier on everyone, which hopefully will lead to better ports all around.

As others have said, the UI tends to be the sore thumb for ports. That should be a point of focus in DA:I

The rumor is that both top next generation consoles will utilize actual PC components and software.  I hope beyond all hope that this is true.  It will eliminate the largest problem that we face today between consoles and PC's, if they could "talk" to each other natively, so to speak.  This would mean that games would be much easier to create, only having to program in one language that would go cross platform.  That would be an amazing solution to the current problems.  Then the only thing that would differ between platforms would be control schemes, and resolution.  (conforming to lower end hardware in consoles would not really be that big of an issue)  It would truly be a win-win for everyone.

Developers could focus more on minute details that make good games great games, and put all their eggs in one basket so to speak programing wise, freeing them up to make greater games for everyone involved, no matter what system you choose.  After all, that's all any of us really want, great games we can play.