213 réponses à ce sujet

[Hurbster]

Choosing synthesis.

I'm just wondering, does mucking up the Choras Den undercover agents cover mean she doesn't save Conrad in ME3 ?

[DeinonSlayer]

Hurbster wrote...

Choosing synthesis.

I'm just wondering, does mucking up the Choras Den undercover agents cover mean she doesn't save Conrad in ME3 ?

All that's needed is to get her out of Chora's Den. You're then free to aid, hinder, or ignore Chellick's investigation however you wish.

[L2 Sentinel]

MrGMM88 wrote...

RogueBot wrote...

MrGMM88 wrote...

You dont turn characters gay/bi in the last chapter just to appeal to a small minortity out there. Its stupid and bad writing.
It would be just as stupid turn a established gay character bi or hetero

Mass Effect is a commercial product. It's not so much "bad writing", it's just that artistic integrity doesn't really apply.

That's not a bad or good thing, it's just the way the business world works.

If that would be the case they could create/sell a alternative ending DLC.

1. Kaidan isn't established as exclusively heterosexual. He is established as liking women. He doesn't comment on whether or not he likes men. When he discloses his interest in male Shepard in ME3, it's new information, not a retcon.

2. Male Shepard just has a different romance arc with Kaidan. It could be that Kaidan is more assertive when persuing FemShep because it's traditionally the man who asks the woman out, and he is more coy with ManShep. There a number of different ways this could be explained that doesn't contradict anything in the game, so it isn't a retcon.

3. Excluding same-sex romance options for male Shepard could be perceived as pandering to homophobes.

4. Shepard's sexual identity is up to the player to decide. My Shepard refused to assist the asari consort because she was coming on to him too strongly.

5. If Kaidan being unavailable to male Shepard in ME1 means he isn't attracted to him, then Garrus and Tali were also retconned. Neither male nor female Shepard could pursue either of them in ME1, so following your logic that must mean they are asexual.

6. Just because asari have no concept of gender doesn't mean they don't have a gender. Someone who was born blind has no concept of color, but that doesn't mean their hair isn't brown. It doesn't matter though, because FemShep clearly perceives Liara as a woman, and choosing to be in a relationship with Liara is a same-sex relationship as far as she is concerned. Furthermore, she can flirt with Kelly Chambers in ME2, so your "asari are genderless, therefor FemShep isn't a lesbian" argument holds no water.

7. It would have been easier to take your arguments more seriously if you stuck to just Male Shepard and Kaidan, but you also took jabs at Steve and Samantha just for kicks. It didn't support your argument at all. It's hard not to dismiss you as just another homophobe when you single out all the gay characters, including the ones that were introduced in ME3 as gay and couldn't possibly have been retconned.

[mechalynx]

Rauhel wrote...

1. Kaidan isn't established as exclusively heterosexual. He is established as liking women. He doesn't comment on whether or not he likes men. When he discloses his interest in male Shepard in ME3, it's new information, not a retcon.

Not entirely true. When discussing Liara joining the Normandy in ME, he and Shep have a playful hint at a comptetition there. ANd yes, people go on about Asari meing monogendered, but they are nothing else than female space babes, so there's the proof of him being attracted to women.

2. Male Shepard just has a different romance arc with Kaidan. It could be that Kaidan is more assertive when persuing FemShep because it's traditionally the man who asks the woman out, and he is more coy with ManShep. There a number of different ways this could be explained that doesn't contradict anything in the game, so it isn't a retcon.

Nope, from what I've seen up until Shep saying yes, he hits on both of them in equal amount if not previously romanced. The only difference in the Citadel date is him kissing FemShep's palm.

5. If Kaidan being unavailable to male Shepard in ME1 means he isn't attracted to him, then Garrus and Tali were also retconned. Neither male nor female Shepard could pursue either of them in ME1, so following your logic that must mean they are asexual.

How is it a retcon? Both of them had barely any personal contact with humans previously and it's not in their culture to date other species, even though it happens sometimes. It stands to reason that it'd take them a few years to warm up to the idea of being with a human. Besides, Tali was what, 18? Even Kirk drew a line at cradle robbing.

6. Just because asari have no concept of gender doesn't mean they don't have a gender. Someone who was born blind has no concept of color, but that doesn't mean their hair isn't brown. It doesn't matter though, because FemShep clearly perceives Liara as a woman, and choosing to be in a relationship with Liara is a same-sex relationship as far as she is concerned. Furthermore, she can flirt with Kelly Chambers in ME2, so your "asari are genderless, therefor FemShep isn't a lesbian" argument holds no water.

Right with you there. Although she could still be bi, as my FemShep that romanced Liara went for Thane in ME2. And anything else that let her [/lecherous chuckle]

Oh, and I really liked Traynor and Cortez, though i have yet to romance them, as it felt more natural to let Shepard pursue an already established relationship, or oen with someone s/he knew for a long time.

Back to the topic at hand - walking into the red explosion was pretty stupid. So was standing there slackjawed while her dying lover took a sword to the chest. 

[andy6915]

mechalynx wrote...

How is it a retcon? Both of them had barely any personal contact with humans previously and it's not in their culture to date other species, even though it happens sometimes. It stands to reason that it'd take them a few years to warm up to the idea of being with a human. Besides, Tali was what, 18? Even Kirk drew a line at cradle robbing.

It's no more a retcon then Kaidan turning bi. How is it that 2 people who showed no prior interest at all in other species suddenly being xenosexual is okay but a human who showed no prior intest in other males suddenly being homosexual is not? Tali and Garrus being attracted to other species is actually a much bigger thing then a human just going for another human. Male human or female human, it's similar enough to understand it, but going for a different species means different biology altogether. Someone who showed no prior interest being sexually attracted to other species is a lot more surprising and retcon-ish then a guy simply showing sexual attraction to a different sex.

Also, unrelated to the quote I tackled above... Shepard was not stupid to compare the First Contact War to the Krogan sitatuon. By that point in the game, Shepard's only knowledge comes from Avina. Avina merely says that (paraphrased) the Turians came along and kicked the Krogan's asses.  She makes it sound like it was just a typical war and the Krogan just straight-up lost. She didn't mention a single thing about any bioweapon or genophage, didn't even hint at it. So when Shepard is hearing Wrex talk about the Turians nearly wiping them out, Shepard assumes he means in actual combat because he doesn't know better. So yeah, Shepard was ignorant, but hardly "fail". Not knowing everything about the history of another species isn't at all surprising considering Shepard's of every background had never worked with aliens before and had never even been to the Citadel before.

[Oransel]

JesseLee202 wrote...

Oransel wrote...

I do not take anything after Harbinger's beam as canon or literal events.

It doesn't matter what you think, or how bad the endings are; Mass Effect 3's events are canonical whether you like it or not. 

You are free to headcanon all you want; a victory in refuse, Tali'Zorah looking like a Xenomorph, etc. But that does not make it canonically accurate.

It's my copy of the game which I bought and I can do with it what I want, including burning it or declaring certain aspects uncanon. Deal with it.

[Indy_S]

Oransel wrote...

It's my copy of the game which I bought and I can do with it what I want, including burning it or declaring certain aspects uncanon. Deal with it.

Due to the actual meaning of the word 'canon', such declarations cannot be made. You can continue to deny them, however. I know I do. They're bloody gibberish.

[Ticonderoga117]

Indy_S wrote...

Oransel wrote...

It's my copy of the game which I bought and I can do with it what I want, including burning it or declaring certain aspects uncanon. Deal with it.

Due to the actual meaning of the word 'canon', such declarations cannot be made. You can continue to deny them, however. I know I do. They're bloody gibberish.

I like to deny that ME3 actually happened in the form we saw it happen. At least good portions of it.

[Oransel]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Oransel wrote...

It's my copy of the game which I bought and I can do with it what I want, including burning it or declaring certain aspects uncanon. Deal with it.

Due to the actual meaning of the word 'canon', such declarations cannot be made. You can continue to deny them, however. I know I do. They're bloody gibberish.

I like to deny that ME3 actually happened in the form we saw it happen. At least good portions of it.

Same, 80% of ME3 is garbage and should be remade from scratch (but it will obviously never ever happen, especially after Zaeed VA died). As for "canon", it depends on interpretation of the word, because I can't give a damn about what writers want to say or what they think is canon after completing messed game and even more messed endings. In the end, it's me with a video game and it's me who chooses what is canon for me. In your interpretation yes, endings are canon.

Modifié par Oransel, 01 mars 2013 - 07:41 .

[nos_astra]

mechalynx wrote...

Rauhel wrote...

1. Kaidan isn't established as exclusively heterosexual. He is established as liking women. He doesn't comment on whether or not he likes men. When he discloses his interest in male Shepard in ME3, it's new information, not a retcon.

Not entirely true. When discussing Liara joining the Normandy in ME, he and Shep have a playful hint at a comptetition there. ANd yes, people go on about Asari meing monogendered, but they are nothing else than female space babes, so there's the proof of him being attracted to women.

How does this make him exclusively heterosexual?

[L2 Sentinel]

mechalynx wrote...

Rauhel wrote...

1. Kaidan isn't established as exclusively heterosexual. He is established as liking women. He doesn't comment on whether or not he likes men. When he discloses his interest in male Shepard in ME3, it's new information, not a retcon.

Not entirely true. When discussing Liara joining the Normandy in ME, he and Shep have a playful hint at a comptetition there. ANd yes, people go on about Asari meing monogendered, but they are nothing else than female space babes, so there's the proof of him being attracted to women.

2. Male Shepard just has a different romance arc with Kaidan. It could be that Kaidan is more assertive when persuing FemShep because it's traditionally the man who asks the woman out, and he is more coy with ManShep. There a number of different ways this could be explained that doesn't contradict anything in the game, so it isn't a retcon.

Nope, from what I've seen up until Shep saying yes, he hits on both of them in equal amount if not previously romanced. The only difference in the Citadel date is him kissing FemShep's palm.

5. If Kaidan being unavailable to male Shepard in ME1 means he isn't attracted to him, then Garrus and Tali were also retconned. Neither male nor female Shepard could pursue either of them in ME1, so following your logic that must mean they are asexual.

How is it a retcon? Both of them had barely any personal contact with humans previously and it's not in their culture to date other species, even though it happens sometimes. It stands to reason that it'd take them a few years to warm up to the idea of being with a human. Besides, Tali was what, 18? Even Kirk drew a line at cradle robbing.

6. Just because asari have no concept of gender doesn't mean they don't have a gender. Someone who was born blind has no concept of color, but that doesn't mean their hair isn't brown. It doesn't matter though, because FemShep clearly perceives Liara as a woman, and choosing to be in a relationship with Liara is a same-sex relationship as far as she is concerned. Furthermore, she can flirt with Kelly Chambers in ME2, so your "asari are genderless, therefor FemShep isn't a lesbian" argument holds no water.

Right with you there. Although she could still be bi, as my FemShep that romanced Liara went for Thane in ME2. And anything else that let her [/lecherous chuckle]

Oh, and I really liked Traynor and Cortez, though i have yet to romance them, as it felt more natural to let Shepard pursue an already established relationship, or oen with someone s/he knew for a long time.

Back to the topic at hand - walking into the red explosion was pretty stupid. So was standing there slackjawed while her dying lover took a sword to the chest. 

I think you are missing the context of my post. I was responding to various posts made by MrGMM88. There were too many of them for me to quote, and they are very repetitive because of circular arguments. Just go through the pages of this thread and read everyone of his posts and you'll see.

Anyway, everything you were saying is essentially what I was saying. We agree with eachother.

1. Kaidan expresses an interest in women. I said he did. My point was that he never said he was only interested in women.

2. I was taking into account the entire trilogy. Male and female Shepards have different romance arcs because FemShep can enter a relationship sooner.

5. It isn't a retcon. That's my point. Garrus and Tali being opened up as romance options in ME2 is not a retcon, and neither is Kaidan being opened up as a romance option to male Shepard in ME3. MrGMM88 was suggesting that Kaidan is exclusively heterosexual because manShep couldn't romance him in ME1. If that's the case, then Tali and Garrus are asexual, or at the very least not attracted to humans. You can't call one a retcon and not the other.

Modifié par Rauhel, 01 mars 2013 - 12:26 .

[JesseLee202]

Oransel wrote...

As for "canon", it depends on interpretation of the word, because I can't give a damn about what writers want to say or what they think is canon after completing messed game and even more messed endings. In the end, it's me with a video game and it's me who chooses what is canon for me. In your interpretation yes, endings are canon.

You are confusing headcanon with canon. Learn the difference.

Tali's death in ME2 is a canonical event. I may not like it, but it is someones canon. All the endings are are canon, including synthesis, even though I would never pick it.

---

On topic, I believe that saving the Geth over the Quarians is the biggest mistake any Shepard could make.

Modifié par JesseLee202, 02 mars 2013 - 07:04 .

[Sentient6]

Shooting Falere after letting Samara shoot herself...

[BHRamsay]

Being armed with an almost empty Talon pistol when Doc Eva runs at you. ... It is not of the good.