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Why I think Templar vs. Mage conflict cannot be solved


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#1
MartialArtsMaster

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Greetings, Bioware. First, I would like to thank you, profusely, for your prowess in game-making (and I apologize for the fan backlash against you for the Mass Effect 3 endings, rest assured I was not one of those fans).

I have been fans of you guys for years. Most of your innovations have been nothing short of brilliant, and I salute you.

But, my thanks offered, there's something I'd like to say that I hope at least one Bioware employee is reading.

I don't approve of the way the storywriters handled the Templar vs. Mage conflict in Dragon Age 2, because it's set up a situation in the upcoming Dragon Age 3 that, in my opinion, has no third options, unlike say the clashes of civilizations in Mass Effect 3.

The people on this board arguing over whether the Mages are right or the Templars are right will ultimately be arguing FOREVER. It ultimately isn't about our beliefs or our conclusions (side
with the mages or the Templars?). The real problem is our
premises/assumptions/starting points by which we use to interpret the
world are radically different. Thought is composed of multiple elements: purposes, questions, assumptions, point of view, information, concepts, inferences/conclusions, and implications/consequences.

You were trying to write a story of conflicting points of view or conclusions. In my opinion, however, what has happened instead is that we are being presented with a clash of radically different ASSUMPTIONS from which to begin, and conflicts like that can't be solved; according to Aristotle, for example, in order to solve disagreements and figure out who's right, if anybody, you have to agree on starting points on which to base the ensuing discussion (for example, if you want to argue with someone over whether the late President Andrew Jackson was a tyrant or a hero, before you even begin you and your opponent have to come to an agreement as to what the definition of "hero" or "tyrant" is. Then you can figure out which one, or both at different times, applies to Jackson).

But this story not only presents people who can't agree on whether or not certain people's actions are ethical or unethical, they can't even agree on what unethical behavior or ethical behavior would look like!

Mostly, this is a clash between three sides rather than two, and the sides are demarcated not by their mage/templar opinions but by the starting point by which they use to judge this issue and all others: 

1) people who think individuals have inalienable human rights since birth, and that we're not allowed to be controlled or messed with or harmed unless we have harmed others. These people would usually side with the Mages, since the Templars punish the innocent along with the guilty by robbing the innocent of control over their lives; thus the innocent mages, as individuals, are being treated as though they are part of a guilty collective even though the individuals have done nothing wrong. Furthermore, they are taught since birth that the Maker considers their magic a sin and an abomination, they are worthless as human beings unless they control themselves (in the manner the Chantry asks them to). It goes without saying that if you're beginning from the assumption that people have human rights unless they have actually harmed others, the Templars are in the wrong and the Mages are in the right...but simultaneously, the same people would argue that Anders was not justified in bombing the Chantry, since even if the mages need to be freed, Anders chose a message that robbed innocent people of both their freedom and their lives. In shorthand I could classify this as the classical Founding Father position. Incidentally, full disclosure, this happens to be the camp to which I belong.

2) people who think that noble ends justify foul means, that you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, and additionally who define "noble ends" as making a world where everyone is as free and/or happy and/or truthful as humanly possible, even if you temporarily have to rob certain people of their rights, for the greater good. This is basically Anders' position, as well as the position of pro-mage fans who additionally approve of Anders' last act. It could also be classified as the "anarchist" position.

3) people who think that noble ends justify foul means, that you can't make
an omelette without breaking a few eggs, and additionally who define
"noble ends" as making a world where everything is as "orderly" or "harmonious" or "secure" as possible, even if to achieve this you dispense with the idea of human rights and classify certain people as unworthy of ethical consideration, so that an even greater amount of people can sleep easily at night. Again, for the greater good. This is basically the Templars' position as well as that of pro-Templar fans. It could also be classified (at various points in history) as China's position, or (at various points in history) Japan's position, or the position of various Utopian (capital because proper name, not adjective) experiments in history, or (at various points in history) Russia's position, etc.

Because of all of that the fans are NEVER going to agree with each other. Furthermore, the implications are also worrying: fans who theoretically belong to a culture based on human rights and individual liberty are arguing in favor of enslaving mages; that's what's worrying if you're on the mages' side. If you're on the templars' side, then fans who theoretically desire world peace and an end to war are arguing in favor of a war Anders started in order to achieve noble ends.

In short, I'm worried that due to the way both Dragon Age 2's story was handled and how Dragon Age 3's story might be handled as a consequence, this could have worrying implications for our collective capacity to empathize with each other.

Thank you very much in advance, esteemed Bioware employees, at least for reading my post and giving it careful consideration, even if you decide I'm just spouting nonsense.

Much luck to you in all future endeavors, and here's hoping for the best when Dragon Age 3 is released.

Modifié par MartialArtsMaster, 27 février 2013 - 08:50 .


#2
Blazomancer

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This isn't much different from real world terrorism, and the war against it, is it? I don't think there is too much to worry about the DA setting having implications on our collective capacity to empathize with each other; the mage-templar conflict can't really poison our minds any more than what these real world attrocities committed in name of freedom and the war against terrorism had already done. We are already divided into such hypothetical groups in real world, this is just the virtual counterpart of it.

#3
RedArmyShogun

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Oh silly OP. I take it no one has ever told you about the problem solver, that I like to call...

Genocide. Rape the women, kill the men, throw the babies into bonfires. They will soon not forget you! Actully they will s you systematically crush the way of life they want or enjoy. May the Templars grind the mages into dust, so that all of Thedas may have more Living Space.

#4
Fredward

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Why should there be a nice clean correct ending? I LOVE the fact that there is no right answer here. That its ALL grey. That your choice depends on how you see the world, your frame of reference. It forces people to think and decide where they stand, morally and emotionally not logically. Even if it is just a game. This is a delicious moral dilemma.

Also #anarchistforlife. XD

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 28 février 2013 - 09:32 .


#5
Renmiri1

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Blazomancer wrote...

This isn't much different from real world terrorism, and the war against it, is it? I don't think there is too much to worry about the DA setting having implications on our collective capacity to empathize with each other; the mage-templar conflict can't really poison our minds any more than what these real world attrocities committed in name of freedom and the war against terrorism had already done. We are already divided into such hypothetical groups in real world, this is just the virtual counterpart of it.


Word

#6
Dabrikishaw

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Templars vs. Mages cannot be solved if Bioware doesn't want it to be.

#7
Uccio

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It can, mages will beat the crap out of templars and that chick, divine something. Then it is all good.

#8
sunnydxmen

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Mages cant be stop.

Modifié par sunnydxmen, 28 février 2013 - 10:30 .


#9
sunnydxmen

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Mages will win in the end.

#10
jackattack1374

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i dont think it's going to have a resolution like we expect it will, with one faction being the 'winner'. it will probablly end with one catclysmic event that will either benifit or hurt both sides. they won't do two endings depending on who wins, it doesn't make sense game wise. it will make this game great sure, but what about future installments? something as defining as the winner of the mage/templar war will likely have an impact on what is to come, and it would be too difficult for writers to make it work. fans will be pissed because their ending from DAIII was retconned, and nobody wins

#11
Chiramu

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It will be solved when everyone's dead. So you're wrong OP, it can be solved :).

#12
nightscrawl

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Believe it or not, there are people -- NPCs in the game as well as players -- who advocate a middle ground. I tend to feel that in their desire to present both sides of the issue, the writers have largely ignored that segment, instead focusing on the extreme views on either side.

Perhaps with the atmosphere presented in Kirkwall that wasn't feasible. Also, judging by my unscientific observations of these mage/templar threads, it does seem that the in-game representations are more realistic. I rarely see people who see the potential usefulness of templars and their abilities, recognize that mages can be dangerous, but also that the current system is broken and encourages abuse.

The issue is very polarizing, and while I do wish that more middle ground opinions were shown in the games, I don't necessarily think that the writers have failed in that regard. It's also necessary to point out that none of us have any idea what they have planned for DA3, nor how this will be handled in it. They could very well throw out a curve ball of epic proportions that no one foresaw. Perhaps, as some have suggested based on Sandal's "prophecy," all the magic will "come back," and everyone will be a mage, or have some level of innate magic. Maybe we'll have the second coming of Andraste. It's my view that not all mages would side with the rebels in the first place, which would be fun to see in the game. The truth is that we just don't know.


jackattack1374 wrote...

i dont think it's going to have a resolution like we expect it will, with one faction being the 'winner'. it will probablly end with one catclysmic event that will either benifit or hurt both sides. they won't do two endings depending on who wins, it doesn't make sense game wise. it will make this game great sure, but what about future installments? something as defining as the winner of the mage/templar war will likely have an impact on what is to come, and it would be too difficult for writers to make it work. fans will be pissed because their ending from DAIII was retconned, and nobody wins

Totally agree.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 28 février 2013 - 11:33 .


#13
paptschik

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I strongly dislike the "mage vs. templar" war going on not in the game, but in the fandom. It seems like everybody picks one side and when the side they like does something bad, bioware is yelled at for portraying their poor babies as big bad meanies...in the end, there are countless messed up templars, especially in DA2 we saw that aplenty. It is for that reason that by the end my characters tend to always go with the mages, because killing innocent mages is just wrong. Before that? My characters always, happily, kill the numerous horrible mages you meet throughout the game, including all my mages. Cause my characters (so far) as well as myself care more about a persons actions than what a person IS. I'd rather have a decent templar AND mage with me, than only templars half of which want to kill all mages or only mages, half of which randomly want to enslave anything that moves. I prefer to make it a matter of...decent people vs. messed up people. You're a mage? I don't care. You're a mage that harms my family? Consequences will follow.
In the grand scheme of things that obviously won't matter much..but that will still be how I intend to play it and it was how I played it in the past.

#14
Medhia Nox

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The mages cannot win as they do not have the support of the populace - and the minute mages start throwing fireballs - peasants are going to get hurt. The minute a peasant gets hurt - it will confirm, for villages miles around - what the Chantry has been saying all along.

Then you're going to have the blood mages - who will be the killing stroke of the mage rebellion. Stupid blood mages everywhere are going to realize that being self-mutilating psychopaths won't be enough to stop the war... so they'll start killing people to fuel their spells. Confirming what everybody already believes about blood mages.

Then there's rends in the Veil - which occur much more frequently - allowing demons to step through. Not only will demons start using mages like sock puppets on an epic scale... but non-mages will have their distrust of magic in general validated.  And woe be to the world if a Pride Demon gets loose because of this stupid rebellion.

Which is - of course - exactly what the Qunari want and why I believe they planted Qunari elven/human mages into the ranks of the Circle mages as Libertarians (and later the faction in DA 2).

Even if the mages do come to a truce (which would be straining credulity) then the Qunari will march in... and the mages won't be able to survive that pogrom.

This is worse than the story of Spartacus... he had "all slaves" - the rebellion can't even claim "all mages" Read some history if you're not aware how that rebellion ended.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 01 mars 2013 - 03:57 .


#15
IanPolaris

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Medhia Nox wrote...

The mages cannot win as they do not have the support of the populace - and the minute mages start throwing fireballs - peasants are going to get hurt. The minute a peasant gets hurt - it will confirm, for villages miles around - what the Chantry has been saying all along.


If you are just talking about mages, that is probably right, but both in DAO and DA2, we see an increasingly reluctant nobility as well.  I can easily see many elements of the nobility (see Alistair as exhibit A) coming in at least nominally on the side of the mages because the various crowned heads and nobility want (and with good reason) more control over magic within their own lands.  The mages (the sane ones and regardless of DA2 tried to sell most of the senior mage leadership is sane) would be willing to go along because control from self-interested nobility is funadmentally a lot better than control by rabidly anti-magic (and drugg addled) fanatics.

Marry the ability of mages to act as extremely potent artiillary as well as logistical support (esp healing magic) with the nobility control of most of the local armies, and you have a very potent combination especially given that the Templars have been cut off from the Chantry and thus from all Chantry logistical support (most importantly lyrium).  If you think the nobility is going to take a bunch of armored thugs "requisitioning" supplies off of their land, well think again.

-Polaris

#16
Xilizhra

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Mages will never be wiped out or rendered kill-on-sight, because the class has to stay open for the players. Hence, the templars cannot win completely. Also, the templars had been losing popular support prior to the war, and seem to have jettisoned it completely since leaving the Chantry. So what I'm asking, Medhia Nox, is how you'll react if things don't go as you predict.

#17
Homebound

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Im ganna make a prediction.

The Mage vs Templar conflict will leave a giant power vacuum where a new faction or possibly the Qunari or the darkspawn or a corrupted Wardens Cabal will take its place.
Then the mage and templars must unite together or be both wiped out.

#18
Fredward

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^ I will puke rainbows if that happens.

Medhia Nox wrote...

The mages cannot win as they do not have the support of the populace - and the minute mages start throwing fireballs - peasants are going to get hurt. The minute a peasant gets hurt - it will confirm, for villages miles around - what the Chantry has been saying all along.

Then you're going to have the blood mages - who will be the killing stroke of the mage rebellion. Stupid blood mages everywhere are going to realize that being self-mutilating psychopaths won't be enough to stop the war... so they'll start killing people to fuel their spells. Confirming what everybody already believes about blood mages.

Then there's rends in the Veil - which occur much more frequently - allowing demons to step through. Not only will demons start using mages like sock puppets on an epic scale... but non-mages will have their distrust of magic in general validated.  And woe be to the world if a Pride Demon gets loose because of this stupid rebellion.

Which is - of course - exactly what the Qunari want and why I believe they planted Qunari elven/human mages into the ranks of the Circle mages as Libertarians (and later the faction in DA 2).

Even if the mages do come to a truce (which would be straining credulity) then the Qunari will march in... and the mages won't be able to survive that pogrom.

This is worse than the story of Spartacus... he had "all slaves" - the rebellion can't even claim "all mages" Read some history if you're not aware how that rebellion ended.


I don't think the mages will be swept away so easily when/if the Qunari move in. Which I really think they will. The Qunari were driven back in the beginning by mages. Tevinter, **** hole that it is these days, has managed to at the very least survive against the Qunari. Considering the Qunari's hatred of all things magic we can assume their breeding programs lessen the birth of Saarebas as much as possible. Couple this with the fact that the non-Qunari seem on the verge of discovering their version of qamek and the Qunari lose their only real advantage. I don't think that it will be pretty, because the non-Qunari lands are going to be DEVASTATED after this war, but I still don't think the Qunari will have a definitive victory.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 01 mars 2013 - 07:02 .


#19
KiwiQuiche

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Kill all Templars and feed them to the hungry poor. Problem solved.

#20
Wolfva2

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Ummmmm....OP? It's a game. I hardly think that one game, or game series, is going cause a shift in world empathy. Frankly, I'd bet something like 99.89999999% of the world has never heard of Dragon Age. In any case, the people who WOULD be swayed away from empathy by a game probably aren't very empathic to begin with.

Bioware is here to entertain us, not solve the world's problems.

#21
Mantaal

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Im the only one thinks that the Mage Templar conflict is just a small uninteresting part in the world of Thedas?

#22
imbs

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Mantaal wrote...

Im the only one thinks that the Mage Templar conflict is just a small uninteresting part in the world of Thedas?


O I wouldn't say that.... I'm pretty sure Bioware agree. Why else would they cut any kind of real developements out when confronted with that theme in DA2? Red Lyrium idol shizzle? Abomination gone terrorist? When you use ideas like those to move a plot along you can't really be all too interested in the dynamics there, am I right?

#23
wylie9

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Oh naive children! In fiction nearly everything can be solved with clever/crappy writing.

#24
Chaos Lord Malek

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If you kill every mage on birth, then you have fix the problem.

#25
Zubie

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Mantaal wrote...

Im the only one thinks that the Mage Templar conflict is just a small uninteresting part in the world of Thedas?


I haven't found it all that interesting either, though that probably has more to do with how poorly it was done in DA2 than anything else.