130 réponses à ce sujet

[Althix]

uniteresting? yeah very much so, we all know how it's going to end so.

and OP, there is always end to all thing. genocide is the option for example. besides "war" is too strong word for this pity little mess.

[Xellith]

MartialArtsMaster wrote...

Greetings, Bioware. First, I would like to thank you, profusely, for your prowess in game-making (and I apologize for the fan backlash against you for the Mass Effect 3 endings, rest assured I was not one of those fans).

Then you dont have the right to "apologize".  Even then you would be apologizing just for yourself and not the group of which you profess you were not part of...

Carry on.

[Nightdragon8]

Templars are to Mages as Wardens are to darkspawn...

so really it will be a stalemate pretty much forever.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Oh, don't think I'm siding with the templars. I don't even really know what their platform is... "We fear mages and have the power to fight them"? I'll assume they'll be the new fanatical Chantry.

If the mages don't "lose" - I'll likely just shrug my shoulders and think it was a missed opportunity to tell a story I would think is more interesting than converting the world to typical fantasy trope. I won't be on here nerd raging or anything if that's what you're asking - though I'll also potentially express my disappointment with the plot (unless I really like it - which is always possible)

I just don't think the mages + Alistair (isn't this the only noble we have signs of support?) suggests a mage win is a possibility at all. Especially since the Ferelden Circle was devastated by Uldred and Ferelden was devastated by the Darkspawn recently. A place like Orlais is where the mage war would really be decided - not some backwater mudhole.

I simply think that the mages cannot possibly hope to survive the current war - and an inevitable Qunari invasion.

But of course - they're not going to convert Thedas to the Qun. ((If the Qunari are ever a future plot)). People rage about the Chantry - wait until they have to play in a Qunari land (even if the PC is given a place in the Qun that offers freedom).

Anyway - my opinion isn't based on favoritism of templars - far from it, I will be playing a mage.  I think the revolting mages are the epitomy of stupid... and their revolt opened the door to the Qunari (which, as I stated, I believe was instigated by Qunari subversives).

Mages won't be wiped out - they're born. When I say "lose" I'm not talking about "no mages".

I think they'll lose - the Circles will be re-instated - but the Chantry will institute reform in the Circles to make them more like Hogwarts... and, well... less like Hogwarts (as in, change will occur in the background - not for any future mage players)

Note: I don't think the Inquisition will be about siding with either side.  I think it will be a group designed to find Qunari subversives... and reveal the Qunari plot to destabilize Thedas for invasion.   This isn't based on some esoteric knowledge of Bioware - just an "educated" guess. 

Guess will find out when some information starts rolling out.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 01 mars 2013 - 02:26 .

[IanPolaris]

I believe that "World of Thedas" indicates that Nevarra has become increasingly mage friendly, and the nobles of Kirkwall seem more and more inclined to side against the templars as well, so no, Alistair isn't the only one. In fact Knight-Captain Cullen complains of the increasingly bad image and PR of the Templars in DA2.

-Polaris

[Beerfish]

I didn't read the whole of the ops post so i apologize for that but I agree that long term it probably cannot be solved by them. However short term they can be made to get along if they have a common goal and face a common threat. (Like the horned devils of Par vollen for instance,)

[Wulfram]

I don't necessarily accept the assumption that pragmatism and human rights are in conflict in this case.

My own pragmatic side says that people who can shoot fireballs and summon demons are people who you should avoid pissing off.

[Trolldrool]

However the conflict ends, I foresee the mages yet again gaining little from it. Their oppression comes from the casual citizen and ordinary farmer's superstitious fear of magic, most commonly ingrained in their heads from the sermons of the chantry. When this is over (for now at least), all that's going to change is that the general populace fears them because of what they've seen with their own eyes, not what a priest has told them.

The mages are unfortunate that much more than the templars, their own powers are incredibly visible and spectacular. For that reason, their actions are what will stick in peoples' minds when they look back on the war. While a few might always remember the kind stranger who cured their youngest child of pneumonia or the templars who confiscated their livelyhood to fund their war, the majority will only be able to recall the fireballs that burned down their crops and homes. The fact that such events didn't happen until the templars arrived and started chasing a man wearing a skirt will fade into obscurity.

And the chantry will continue to gain support. Perhaps even more than they did before the conflict.

[samgurl775]

Create a Hogwarts. Problem solved.

[dragonflight288]

samgurl775 wrote...

Create a Hogwarts. Problem solved.

Not necessarily. That would mean allowing mages to be free outside of the school year, and the templars, and many templar supporters, will not stand for anything less than all mages being locked up at all times, and don't trust anyone else with policing mages.

[IanPolaris]

dragonflight288 wrote...

samgurl775 wrote...

Create a Hogwarts. Problem solved.

Not necessarily. That would mean allowing mages to be free outside of the school year, and the templars, and many templar supporters, will not stand for anything less than all mages being locked up at all times, and don't trust anyone else with policing mages.

Maybe, but much the same thing was said about civil rights in the southern US circa 1970, yet is it amazing how fast 'intrenched opinions' can change when the person that used to be a persecuted minority now holds a gun and a badge.  The same applies to the US Military cica 1950-1970...it is amazing how fast attitudes can change when you can be not promoted and/or kicked out of the service because of those attitudes.

That would be the key to a post war peace.  Magic obviously has to be strongly regulalated.  I don't think any reasonable person disagrees, but if a tough, fair, and very equitable system of justice existed that stomped out such attitudes existed...by naked force if need be, I think it would be amazing how fast attitudes would change (esp if magic were seen keeping the sick alive, healing people, and more).

-Polaris

[sunnydxmen]

I'm guessing the rogues will back whoever pays for there services only to back stab both parties leaving them the winners and with the riches.

[Zkyire]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

If you kill every mage on birth, then you have fix the problem.

Not even the Qunari do that.

And since Thedas' technology is inferior to Qunari tech, the only advantage they have are the mages. Wipe them out and the Qunari may aswell just waltz in.

[Plaintiff]

Well, no solution will make everyone happy, if that's what you mean. No solution ever makes everyone happy.

Even if they win this particular conflict, the templars can't stay in power forever. More mages will be born every day, and the templars can't catch all of them.

[Nightdragon8]

Trolldrool wrote...

However the conflict ends, I foresee the mages yet again gaining little from it. Their oppression comes from the casual citizen and ordinary farmer's superstitious fear of magic, most commonly ingrained in their heads from the sermons of the chantry. When this is over (for now at least), all that's going to change is that the general populace fears them because of what they've seen with their own eyes, not what a priest has told them.

The mages are unfortunate that much more than the templars, their own powers are incredibly visible and spectacular. For that reason, their actions are what will stick in peoples' minds when they look back on the war. While a few might always remember the kind stranger who cured their youngest child of pneumonia or the templars who confiscated their livelyhood to fund their war, the majority will only be able to recall the fireballs that burned down their crops and homes. The fact that such events didn't happen until the templars arrived and started chasing a man wearing a skirt will fade into obscurity.

And the chantry will continue to gain support. Perhaps even more than they did before the conflict.

its not really a superstitious fear of magic, in the DA world a mage can really laywaste to fields and towns and cities.

And when it comes to blood magic its even worse in the fact that they can enslave people to do what they want (even having them kill themselves)

So they are Real fears.

[Medhia Nox]

@IanPolaris: Are you going to say that the subjects of real life civil rights can lay waste to whole towns, practice blood magic and can be turned into abominations?

I would suggest that the reason why entrenched thoughts died so quickly (have they really - I actually think that's a bit naive - I know plenty of "those people" types) is because the fears were genuinely false.

The fears of mages are genuinely valid. I simply do not believe it is realistic that a farmer would say: "OH, so you're saying that my new neighbor can burn my entire family to a crisp if he's mad at me - use my son for a blood ritual - and maybe even turn into an abomination at a moment's notice. And you're telling me to be COOL with it?"

"If" mages were to be accepted in society - combat spells would have to be outlawed.

No - I'm not saying this is how Bioware must see it - I'm saying I don't find support for mages among the food producing, army forming populace. You can be whatever kind of king you want - if your peasants refuse to pick up arms... you're F'ed.

[dragonflight288]

IanPolaris wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

samgurl775 wrote...

Create a Hogwarts. Problem solved.

Not necessarily. That would mean allowing mages to be free outside of the school year, and the templars, and many templar supporters, will not stand for anything less than all mages being locked up at all times, and don't trust anyone else with policing mages.

Maybe, but much the same thing was said about civil rights in the southern US circa 1970, yet is it amazing how fast 'intrenched opinions' can change when the person that used to be a persecuted minority now holds a gun and a badge.  The same applies to the US Military cica 1950-1970...it is amazing how fast attitudes can change when you can be not promoted and/or kicked out of the service because of those attitudes.

That would be the key to a post war peace.  Magic obviously has to be strongly regulalated.  I don't think any reasonable person disagrees, but if a tough, fair, and very equitable system of justice existed that stomped out such attitudes existed...by naked force if need be, I think it would be amazing how fast attitudes would change (esp if magic were seen keeping the sick alive, healing people, and more).

-Polaris

That's true. But getting that done will either take a strong majority of Thedas supporting mages and letting them take some power away from the Chantry and Templars so long as the mages are treated justly, meaning that not only would they be rewarded for their accomplishments but also punished for their crimes.

I think it can happen. I just don't see the Chantry and the templars willingly giving up their power over mages any time soon, and some templar supporters have been so influenced by the over-the-top portrayal of mages in DA2 that the insane blood mage has become the standard expected from apostates.

[IanPolaris]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@IanPolaris: Are you going to say that the subjects of real life civil rights can lay waste to whole towns, practice blood magic and can be turned into abominations?

Bolloxs.  I never said any such thing.  I am saying that in my hypothetical scenario, you can hate mages all you like, but the moment you start a lynch mob against one (even a suspected one) and go above the law, you swing.  Have this repeated over and over enough, and people will get the message.  To answer Dragonflight's point, given that the Templars have divorced themselves from the Chantry (and thus their one logistical supply to needed lyrium), I expect both will be much weaker when the smoke clears (and won't be able to argue against a resurgent nobility).

I would suggest that the reason why entrenched thoughts died so quickly (have they really - I actually think that's a bit naive - I know plenty of "those people" types) is because the fears were genuinely false.

Actually, the thoughts are still there as you say (I remember my late great-aunt for one), and those people believe those fear as just as valid as you claim the ones about mages are.  However, if people are told they aren't allowed to ACT on such thoughts, you'd be amazed how fast social change can happen.

Also I strongly question how factual those fears are.  Do we have any data or any proof at all, that the circle system actually helps keep people safer from the RARE case of an abomination better than any other?  I sure haven't seen it.

The fears of mages are genuinely valid. I simply do not believe it is realistic that a farmer would say: "OH, so you're saying that my new neighbor can burn my entire family to a crisp if he's mad at me - use my son for a blood ritual - and maybe even turn into an abomination at a moment's notice. And you're telling me to be COOL with it?"

I never said a word about allowing bloodmagic for general use.  If you've followed my posts at all, you'd know that bloodmagic (and other dangerous magic) would be extremely strongly regulated and likely out of the hands of all but those that both need it and can be trusted with it (esp to fight criminal mages...and there will be criminal mages like there are criminals from any walk of life or background).

"If" mages were to be accepted in society - combat spells would have to be outlawed.

Restricted just as weapons are restricted.  How is that a problem?

No - I'm not saying this is how Bioware must see it - I'm saying I don't find support for mages among the food producing, army forming populace. You can be whatever kind of king you want - if your peasants refuse to pick up arms... you're F'ed.

Given the choice between picking up a spear or seeing your homestead burned and your familiy killed or worse, most would chose to fight...no matter how unwillingly.  Peasent revolves (with or without magic) almost never end well.  It's a nascent middle class that spawns sucessful rebellion, not the peasentry.  I also note that drafting is still practiced in any western nations to this day for the military, and the US had a draft up until the 1970s, and US Citizens are still required to register for a presumably unwilling draft.

-Polaris

[ShadowLordXII]

How about a massive reorganization, reformation and partial destruction of the structure of power that caused the whole conflict in the first place?

The Chantry.

Seriously, most of the problems related to this virtually impossible situation would be dealt with if they were dealt with at the heart of the matter.

Templars going wild because they're cut off from the Chantry lyrium trade? How about cutting out lyrium altogether since it's not even needed. Alistair was still able to use his templar abilities over ten years after being trained and he didn't need to get addicted to lyrium to do it.

Mages are cursed people who need to be isolated and controlled to keep them from becoming magisters? Since Andraste herself never said something like this and may have been a mage herself, this comes across as a radical interpretation made to appease a populace of muggles who still carry bad memories from the Tevinter Imperium.

Isn't it already proven that the most mages go to blood magic because of their situation? And when blood mages appear then the templars get more serious which leads to more blood magic and other forbidden arts. Just cut off the cycle by convincing the Grand Clerics and Divine to bring up a better interpretation that allows mages freedom but also ensures that mages are unable to become rulers in Chantry Nations or at least must severely limit this usage responsibly.

While we're at it, what about introducing a legitimate checks and balance between the mages and templars like the Seekers were supposed to be.

But it doesn't matter now right?

Thedas is at war and whoever wins, the people who are left are screwed. Either by a huge surge of darkspawn, the Tevinter Imperium, or the Qunari...

In short...this situation is already unsolvable because no one will listen to each other or use common sense.

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I simply think that the mages cannot possibly hope to survive the current war - and an inevitable Qunari invasion.

The "noble" ones probably won't survive. But then there will surely be a whole bunch that will head for Tevinter. Yes Tevinter might be a harsh place, yes Tevinter magisters don't like to share their power, but Tevinter WILL accept them, and Tevinter will gain a serious war asset against all their enemies, will be able to push back the Qunari more effectively, and surely Temlars will not be a threat for these mages. 

I guess where I am going is - Thedas is going to have a lot less mages when this is all over, but Tevinter will be empowered. 

Modifié par KainD, 02 mars 2013 - 05:03 .

[KiwiQuiche]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

How about a massive reorganization, reformation and partial destruction of the structure of power that caused the whole conflict in the first place?

The Chantry.

Seriously, most of the problems related to this virtually impossible situation would be dealt with if they were dealt with at the heart of the matter.

Templars going wild because they're cut off from the Chantry lyrium trade? How about cutting out lyrium altogether since it's not even needed. Alistair was still able to use his templar abilities over ten years after being trained and he didn't need to get addicted to lyrium to do it.

Mages are cursed people who need to be isolated and controlled to keep them from becoming magisters? Since Andraste herself never said something like this and may have been a mage herself, this comes across as a radical interpretation made to appease a populace of muggles who still carry bad memories from the Tevinter Imperium.

Isn't it already proven that the most mages go to blood magic because of their situation? And when blood mages appear then the templars get more serious which leads to more blood magic and other forbidden arts. Just cut off the cycle by convincing the Grand Clerics and Divine to bring up a better interpretation that allows mages freedom but also ensures that mages are unable to become rulers in Chantry Nations or at least must severely limit this usage responsibly.

While we're at it, what about introducing a legitimate checks and balance between the mages and templars like the Seekers were supposed to be.

But it doesn't matter now right?

Thedas is at war and whoever wins, the people who are left are screwed. Either by a huge surge of darkspawn, the Tevinter Imperium, or the Qunari...

In short...this situation is already unsolvable because no one will listen to each other or use common sense.

Logic is not welcomed in the Chantry.

But yeah, the Chantry's stupidity just made it all worse- having people with powerful arcane abilities locked up like rabid animals all their lives under the watch of drug-addicted religious zealots. Not like that can backfire.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 02 mars 2013 - 05:12 .

[PPF65]

Easy solution:

Gather all the intelligent, reasonable people who are willing to do what it takes to stop the war. Make plots and plan. Kill the leaders who do not take your side. New laws are put in place. Templar's are now FORCED to give the mages better treatment, or else you kill them. Mages must now ALWAYS practice magic in a controlled environment, or else be made tranquil.

No practicing in secret for mages, no "all mages in here die because one was bad" activities for templars. Extreme? Maybe. Tyrannical? Definitely. Problem solved? You bet your ass.

Obviously, individual scenarios will be judged individually, but those are the general guide lines.

Modifié par PPF65, 02 mars 2013 - 12:11 .

[TheJediSaint]

PPF65 wrote...

Easy solution:

Gather all the intelligent, reasonable people who are willing to do what it takes to stop the war. Make plots and plan. Kill the leaders who do not take your side. New laws are put in place. Templar's are now FORCED to give the mages better treatment, or else you kill them. Mages must now ALWAYS practice magic in a controlled environment, or else be made tranquil.

No practicing in secret for mages, no "all mages in here die because one was bad" activities for templars. Extreme? Maybe. Tyrannical? Definitely. Problem solved? You bet your ass.

Obviously, individual scenarios will be judged individually, but those are the general guide lines.

Yes, because killing everyone you don't agree with is the sure path to peace.

[Medhia Nox]

@KainD: Actually - I think there's a possibility that Dragon Age 4 will take place in Tevinter... as they march on the Qunari with new treaties from old enemies (everyone else).

My guess is that they'll build on the proposed castle concept - and you'll be a powerful Magister (if mage) or General (Rogue/Warrior) of Tevinter and march on the rest of Thedas to "liberate it" from the Qunari invasion.  Of course - they'll forget to leave after the war. 

I am not Pro-Templar. I'm against both sides.

But I think the mages were duped (either by reactionary Libertarians or Qunari plants) into making a terrible mistake for their power base.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 02 mars 2013 - 02:23 .

[KainD]

TheJediSaint wrote...

PPF65 wrote...

Easy solution:

Gather all the intelligent, reasonable people who are willing to do what it takes to stop the war. Make plots and plan. Kill the leaders who do not take your side. New laws are put in place. Templar's are now FORCED to give the mages better treatment, or else you kill them. Mages must now ALWAYS practice magic in a controlled environment, or else be made tranquil.

No practicing in secret for mages, no "all mages in here die because one was bad" activities for templars. Extreme? Maybe. Tyrannical? Definitely. Problem solved? You bet your ass.

Obviously, individual scenarios will be judged individually, but those are the general guide lines.

Yes, because killing everyone you don't agree with is the sure path to peace.

Intelligent, reasonable people.