130 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@KainD: Actually - I think there's a possibility that Dragon Age 4 will take place in Tevinter... as they march on the Qunari with new treaties from old enemies (everyone else).

 

You think DA:I will end with Qunari taking over? 

[thebigbad1013]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Why should there be a nice clean correct ending? I LOVE the fact that there is no right answer here. That its ALL grey. That your choice depends on how you see the world, your frame of reference. It forces people to think and decide where they stand, morally and emotionally not logically. Even if it is just a game. This is a delicious moral dilemma.

Also #anarchistforlife. XD

I agree with this. The brilliance of the mage/templar conflict is that neither side is completely right or wrong. Both sides have valid points and arguments and, no, it probably can't be solved in a clean way that both sides would be happy with. But that isn't the same as saying that the conflict can't be solved at all, because it very much can.

[TheJediSaint]

bigbad1013 wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Why should there be a nice clean correct ending? I LOVE the fact that there is no right answer here. That its ALL grey. That your choice depends on how you see the world, your frame of reference. It forces people to think and decide where they stand, morally and emotionally not logically. Even if it is just a game. This is a delicious moral dilemma.

Also #anarchistforlife. XD

I agree with this. The brilliance of the mage/templar conflict is that neither side is completely right or wrong. Both sides have valid points and arguments and, no, it probably can't be solved in a clean way that both sides would be happy with. But that isn't the same as saying that the conflict can't be solved at all, because it very much can.

Compromise is a wonderful concept.

[Medhia Nox]

@KainD: No - the Qunari invading - but I don't think they're going to have the next game be a losing war for Thedas.

I think they might just jump straight to - "Thedas is farked... help us Tevinter!"

[BouncyFrag]

What ever the major conflict or bigbad we have to face in DA3, I'd like it to be something that eclipses the whole mage/templar thing in size and scope and based on what you do (as the Inquisitor? I 'm just guessing since we don't know jack squat about the game) in the game you can shape or direct this hopefully lesser conflict. By lesser I don't mean that the mage/templar thing is a small deal because it isn't. I mean I'd rather not focus the whole game on it.

[Fredward]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Compromise is a wonderful concept.

It's not a agreeable compromise if an entire group of people are oppressed and punished for something they might do. The OP was very right in saying that where we choose to stand on this is dependant on our real life morals and ethics, which is why this argument will never go anywhere. Well unless you can make someone totally change their view of the world and that happens ALL THE TIME on the internet.

[Direwolf0294]

It can only be solved if either all magic is removed, with none of the races able to have mages ever again, or everyone in the world is given magic. Otherwise there will just keep being conflict. Even if the Templars are destroyed and the mages win, there will be future fights between people who can use magic and those who can't.

[TheJediSaint]

When the alternative is war, with all the horror that goes with it, I think compromise is the only sane alternative. Of course, this could all be rendered moot if Bioware decides to have the Mage-Templar conflict interrupted by something even worse. A Sixth Blight, Qunari Invasion, or big bad sundering of reality.

[snackrat]

The templar/mage conflict is ultimately about fear (with some spiteful jealousy, perhaps). Fear vs freedom.

Mages cannot have freedom because mundanes will live in fear of their magic (which is a mystery to mundanes), their power (which is intimidating) and their demonic vulnerability (which is threatening).
Mundanes will not have true security while any apostates of malificarum exist, and even if all mages were circle mages, the idea of magic as a whole would not sit well.

Pretty much the only way I see to have peace is to make everyone into one camp or the other - everyone becomes magic, or everyone becomes mundane. (Or, Meredith and Ulfred's version, KILL those of your opposing faction.)
Closest compromise is the Isolationists idea of all the mages getting on a boat and heading to Elsewherevill, but mundanes will probably always fear that one day an army of abominations will come back and murder 'em all. Or enslave them perhaps, since Tevinter is a mage-ruled example.

[BlazingSpeed]

easygame88 wrote...

Mantaal wrote...

Im the only one thinks that the Mage Templar conflict is just a small uninteresting part in the world of Thedas?

I haven't found it all that interesting either, though that probably has more to do with how poorly it was done in DA2 than anything else.

[esper]

Karsciyin wrote...

The templar/mage conflict is ultimately about fear (with some spiteful jealousy, perhaps). Fear vs freedom.

Mages cannot have freedom because mundanes will live in fear of their magic (which is a mystery to mundanes), their power (which is intimidating) and their demonic vulnerability (which is threatening).
Mundanes will not have true security while any apostates of malificarum exist, and even if all mages were circle mages, the idea of magic as a whole would not sit well.

Pretty much the only way I see to have peace is to make everyone into one camp or the other - everyone becomes magic, or everyone becomes mundane. (Or, Meredith and Ulfred's version, KILL those of your opposing faction.)
Closest compromise is the Isolationists idea of all the mages getting on a boat and heading to Elsewherevill, but mundanes will probably always fear that one day an army of abominations will come back and murder 'em all. Or enslave them perhaps, since Tevinter is a mage-ruled example.

Even if all mages in this generation headed to Elsewherewille, new mages would still be born to mundane, so no. It is not option.

Neither is kill all magi or kill all mundane as new would always be born. It would only solve the conflict for this generation, but give rise to so much more hate in the next to come.

[Goneaviking]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually, the thoughts are still there as you say (I remember my late great-aunt for one), and those people believe those fear as just as valid as you claim the ones about mages are.  However, if people are told they aren't allowed to ACT on such thoughts, you'd be amazed how fast social change can happen.

Also I strongly question how factual those fears are.  Do we have any data or any proof at all, that the circle system actually helps keep people safer from the RARE case of an abomination better than any other?  I sure haven't seen it.

If anything the evidence we've seen runs counter to the assumption.

Locking mages into a tower for the rest of their lives gives many of them an entirely warranted desire to be elsewhere. Problematic behaviour is pretty much guaranteed by it, and the scare tactic of keeping the tranquil on hand as object lessons drums into mages the consequences of doing things half-arsed.

The inevitable flame ups can only be predicted to become worse, and with further reaching consequences, when the most visible punishments don't include being locked up (since they already are).

Aside from the ideological underpinnings of the conflict, evidence suggests that almost anyone placed in a position of absolute authority over others will internalise that dynamic. It's no surprise that Templars see Mages as weak willed monsters, not only are they explicitly indoctrinated with those attitudes but the nature of relationships between Templar and Circles are established in such a way as to bring out the worst in them.

My solution: Eliminate the absolute authority and mandatory detention. Establish a system of external reviews and appeals committees to curtail abusive behaviour by the Templars. Turn the Circles into a boarding school scenario where kids are brought to learn how to control their powers and fortify them against demonic possession but without severing their connection to society and their families. Employment programs for after graduation, teach mages useful magics and there'll always be jobs for people with their abilities that'll give them an incentive to play nice and submit to limited authority.

Keep the reformed Templars on hand for when problems emerge, but make their power less arbitrary and their authority less total. Monitor mages in the community as well as in the academies, but give them incentives to play nice with the mundanes.

There'll always be problems, people who refuse to behave ethically and there'll never be total consensus on the best way forward but I think most mages would be willing to accept a compromise that gained them a measure of freedom and security. The templars can only really justify their existence if they have the Chantry's blessing so they can eventually be brought down if they refuse to deal.

[Fishy]

When you keep slapping on someone head. There's more chance for him to rebels against you. That what's happening with the mage/templars conflict. Mage should be treated like anyone else, but I do think the mage school should be an obligation for a certain amount of time.

After they have done theheir school magery training( Training people how to control their power). They can do what the hell they want. Of course they need to follow the rules of society like everyone. but not treated has second class citizen with no freedom at all. Mage could protect the citizen against other  criminals that practice magery, but they should not live like prisoner just because they can cast a fireball. They're born with this. So it's not like they go to a gunshop for an AK47 because rabbit are invading their garden.

COmmon people would be scared at first and manifestation would happens.. But eh that politics.

Modifié par Suprez30, 03 mars 2013 - 10:55 .

[KainD]

Hanz54321 wrote..

Not exactly. 

But I've been saying DA4 is going to be all about when the Qunari invade a Thedas that has been severly weakened by the conflicts in DA3.  After all, obviously the non-Qun nations need order and purpose so they stop blowing themselves up with fireballs and bleeding on the Templars' swords.

That would be nice. I like Qunari as an Antagonist. 

[calvinien]

Oh it's easily solved. The dalish have unchained mages with little consequence. Tevinter has a crap ton of demon summoning and blood magic but has not become a smoking crater.

The issue with the current system is that of a vicious circle. Mages and templars are put in an unequal power situation (stanford prison experiement anyone?) pushback form one wil always lead to pushback form another. Pople like anders will never accept the circle and people like meredith will never compromise. And all that does is create a breeding ground for templar rapists and abominations.

Fold the templars into the existing law structure. Make sure every guardsman/soldier gets some templar training (there's ample evidence in the games that the skills can be taught to at leats some degree without lyrium,). That way the playing field is considerably leveled. yeah you have people walking around with the ability to throw fire. But you also have every lawman with the ability to prevent them form doing that. Meanwhile mages can considerably imporve the quality fo life in thedas by using their magic practically. Fire to help smiths, ice to keep food form spoiling, healing to fend off hoard of bandits randomly spawning form out of nowhere to attack heavily armed adventurers.

This makes mages more welcome in society, cuts down on resentment and makes the truly power hungry and crazy far less easy to take seriously.

It also prevents your more powerful mages form running to tevinter where they are more likely to be corrupted. Look at feynriel. He's essentially a good aligned Freddy Kruger. And he had to run to tevinter just to be free. Frankly I'd much rather have a fade warping murder machine using his powers to impress chicks that using them to gain power. IN tevinter he may have no choice. He may have to go all friday the 13th on rival magisters just to keep himself safe. That's a bad slope to put the kid on when he can total party kill from a continent away.


Oh and I would also love to the the qunari as the primary antagonist in 4. Not only are they a fascinating culture and one of the most fun takes on the troll/orc archetype in recent memory, but so far the ones we have met have tended to be at leats somewhat sympathetic. I have never NOT given sten his sword back and tallis is all kinds of fun....even though I disagree with everything they say. Putting us in a scenario where the win condition may very well require us to kill someone we considered a buddy in a previous playthrough, NOT because of some 'you can only save one' situation but because we disagree with our policies....that's an interesting road for an rpg to take.

[Kidd]

One possible scenario to end the fighting? Spread the taint. Ghouls can't use mana, can they?

Trolldrool wrote...

However the conflict ends, I foresee the mages yet again gaining little from it. Their oppression comes from the casual citizen and ordinary farmer's superstitious fear of magic, most commonly ingrained in their heads from the sermons of the chantry. When this is over (for now at least), all that's going to change is that the general populace fears them because of what they've seen with their own eyes, not what a priest has told them.

I really wouldn't mind seeing such an event. The mages, roaring in victory, only to see the general public at first retreat away from them and then return to decry those who scare them. It could feel like such a perfect pyrrhic victory.

KainD wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@KainD: Actually - I think there's a possibility that Dragon Age 4 will take place in Tevinter... as they march on the Qunari with new treaties from old enemies (everyone else). 

 

You think DA:I will end with Qunari taking over? 

I for one welcome our new horned overlords! 

[Xilizhra]

I really wouldn't mind seeing such an event. The mages, roaring in victory, only to see the general public at first retreat away from them and then return to decry those who scare them. It could feel like such a perfect pyrrhic victory.

No, this would be astonishingly annoying. If we have a victory, I want it to be in the hearts and minds of the people as well.

[Damate]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Trolldrool wrote...

However the conflict ends, I foresee the mages yet again gaining little from it. Their oppression comes from the casual citizen and ordinary farmer's superstitious fear of magic, most commonly ingrained in their heads from the sermons of the chantry. When this is over (for now at least), all that's going to change is that the general populace fears them because of what they've seen with their own eyes, not what a priest has told them.

I really wouldn't mind seeing such an event. The mages, roaring in victory, only to see the general public at first retreat away from them and then return to decry those who scare them. It could feel like such a perfect pyrrhic victory.

 

^ Ditto! 
....I'll be especially alright with this outcome if all we see is a toooon of blood magic and abominations all over the place again. 

But seriously: I don't forsee a "mage victory" achieving a better life for mages in terms of how they are viewed by the general populace, not rapidly at least. So such an ending jives for me. 

[iOnlySignIn]

Bah. I have the perfect solution for you OP.

We kill them all. Problem solved.

Edit: Specifically, I (Inquisitor) kill the Maker and destroy the source of Magic (which includes Lyrium) in Thedas. Then a new age of enlightenment and discovery is ushered in with Qunari technology.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 04 mars 2013 - 05:40 .

[Pelle6666]

Imagine if you'd put that much thought into the middle eastern crisis or some real issue. I bet the world would suck a bit less if people did. XP
Still, I doubt BW would introduce a problem of this magnitude without thinking of a way to solve it in the games. Especially since there are much more to the DA universe than mages and templars.

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Bah. I have the perfect solution for you OP.

We kill them all. Problem solved.

That's your solution for every single problem in Thedas.

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Bah. I have the perfect solution for you OP.

We kill them all. Problem solved.

That's your solution for every single problem in Thedas.

Because it works.

Specifically, I (Inquisitor) kill the Maker and destroy the source of Magic (which includes Lyrium) in Thedas. Then a new age of enlightenment and discovery is ushered in with Qunari technology.

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Bah. I have the perfect solution for you OP.

We kill them all. Problem solved.

That's your solution for every single problem in Thedas.

Because it works.

Specifically, I (Inquisitor) kill the Maker and destroy the source of Magic (which includes Lyrium) in Thedas. Then a new age of enlightenment and discovery is ushered in with Qunari technology.

Destroying the potential of magic is much too great a loss, and I don't even believe in the Maker. I'd much rather hamstring the qunari before they can ever leave Par Vollen again (I considered attracting a Blight to the place because they don't have Grey Wardens, but then I was reminded that it would lead to an enormous upswing in the ogre population, so... that may be a bad idea in the long run).

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

 I'd much rather hamstring the qunari before they can ever leave Par Vollen again (I considered attracting a Blight to the place because they don't have Grey Wardens, but then I was reminded that it would lead to an enormous upswing in the ogre population, so... that may be a bad idea in the long run).

This made me LOL.

Get the salarians to engineer a female-qunari centered genophage. Problem solved.