130 réponses à ce sujet

[iOnlySignIn]

I think the Maker exists. He's just not benevolent or omnipotent.

And I think we may find that out in DA3.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 04 mars 2013 - 05:54 .

[LadyAaphrael]

The Mage versus Templar theme is better as an undercurrent of the main plot than the central story. It doesn't have to be boxed into a single quest as in DA:O, but if you don't weave it in as context of the greater society, you're pretty much going to be bashing players over the head with themes we've dealt with since the Middle Ages. It's not going to be all that subtle at all. Quite frankly, I was hoping for a less predictable plot.<_<

Modifié par LadyAaphrael, 05 mars 2013 - 12:03 .

[Medhia Nox]

@LadyAaphrael: Well - I think it is the background.

I've mentioned it before - but I think the Inquisition is going to be hunting down who's causing the conflict (and I do think someone is inciting it)

And when the Qunari are revealed as the culprits - I'll be ready for 'em.

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

And when the Qunari are revealed as the culprits - I'll be ready for 'em.

A shame for people that like Qunari though. 

[Foolsfolly]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

Oh silly OP. I take it no one has ever told you about the problem solver, that I like to call...

Genocide. Rape the women, kill the men, throw the babies into bonfires. They will soon not forget you! Actully they will s you systematically crush the way of life they want or enjoy. May the Templars grind the mages into dust, so that all of Thedas may have more Living Space.

God, I love Ceasar's Legion. What a great way to run a army for the villain of your RPG. They're not orcs or goblins... just a genocidal tyrant with a hard-on for old world imperialism.

[Goneaviking]

KainD wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

And when the Qunari are revealed as the culprits - I'll be ready for 'em.

A shame for people that like Qunari though. 

Nah, they'll be thrilled at the prospect of all that new Qunari content.

[grumpymooselion]

It's interesting that with the Qunari we saw that it wasn't only the Templars that treated those gifted with magic in a manner bordering on, if not stepping over, monstrous.

[Foolsfolly]

Goneaviking wrote...

KainD wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

And when the Qunari are revealed as the culprits - I'll be ready for 'em.

A shame for people that like Qunari though. 

Nah, they'll be thrilled at the prospect of all that new Qunari content.

True facts.

I can't speak for everyone but I love the qunari because they are so interesting, well written, and when push comes to shove fantastic villains.

I'd like more qunari heroes like Sten or Tallis or whoever. But even they do not shy away from the fact that the Qun calls for all bas to be killed or converted. And the Qunari are the most technologically advanced race on the planet and have those devesating saarabas to call upon if they need magic.

The Qunari are just like any race or organistation in this series; they have their good points and their bad.

[Pasquale1234]

LadyAaphrael wrote...

The Mage versus Templar theme is better as an undercurrent of the main plot than the central story. It doesn't have to be boxed into a single quest as in DA:O, but if you don't weave it in as context of the greater society, you're pretty much going to be bashing players over the head with themes we've dealt with since the Middle Ages. It's not going to be all that subtle at all. Quite frankly, I was hoping for a less predictable plot.<_<

+1

I was... really disappointed at the way DA2 beat us over the head repeatedly with "this is what happens when...".  I got it during the Circle quest in DAO.  I learned nothing new from DA2.

The questions make for some heated discussion on the forum, but middle gray versus middle gray as a primary conflict - no thanks.

[Medhia Nox]

Well - the people that love the Qunari should know that, even if I'm totally off base, they'll "eventually" be a major enemy.

I love them as a concept - and I won't lie and say that the Qun sounds totally repulsive to me (that's reserved for Blood Magic).

I look forward to making a good impression on the next Arishok (our former Sten in the comic I believe) as a worthy opponent when/if the time comes.

[Xilizhra]

The questions make for some heated discussion on the forum, but middle gray versus middle gray as a primary conflict - no thanks.

Ah, but that's because you're mistakenly seeing the templars as gray.

I love them as a concept - and I won't lie and say that the Qun sounds totally repulsive to me (that's reserved for Blood Magic).

I personally will take blood magic over the Qun any day. At least it doesn't actually require you to be an evil bastard.

[Pasquale1234]

Xilizhra wrote...

The questions make for some heated discussion on the forum, but middle gray versus middle gray as a primary conflict - no thanks.

Ah, but that's because you're mistakenly seeing the templars as gray.

The real problem is that you mistakenly see them as something other than gray.

I've no interest in debating this. You won't change my opinion, and I have no need or interest in attempting to change yours.

I've spent the first several decades of my life debating things such as this, and at this point, am well and truly bored of it.

[Zkyire]

Xilizhra wrote...

The questions make for some heated discussion on the forum, but middle gray versus middle gray as a primary conflict - no thanks.

Ah, but that's because you're mistakenly seeing the templars as gray.

I love them as a concept - and I won't lie and say that the Qun sounds totally repulsive to me (that's reserved for Blood Magic).

I personally will take blood magic over the Qun any day. At least it doesn't actually require you to be an evil bastard.

I usually see some logic in your posts even if I don't agree with you, but.. I.. what?

[Xilizhra]

Zkyire wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The questions make for some heated discussion on the forum, but middle gray versus middle gray as a primary conflict - no thanks.

Ah, but that's because you're mistakenly seeing the templars as gray.

I love them as a concept - and I won't lie and say that the Qun sounds totally repulsive to me (that's reserved for Blood Magic).

I personally will take blood magic over the Qun any day. At least it doesn't actually require you to be an evil bastard.

I usually see some logic in your posts even if I don't agree with you, but.. I.. what?

I personally do not see the templars as gray, not anymore. They've abandoned the Chantry and any duties of protection to embark on full-scale genocide, so far as I can tell.

As for the other thing, the Qun is inherently evil. It demands an ideology of forceful religious conquest, horrific slavery of mages, and killing or lobotomizing anyone who doesn't immediately convert. All who support it are accessories (of course, many know no other life and I would certainly give any a chance to redeem themselves, but the Qun itself is evil to the core).

[jack253]

jackattack1374 wrote...

i dont think it's going to have a resolution like we expect it will, with one faction being the 'winner'. it will probablly end with one catclysmic event that will either benifit or hurt both sides. they won't do two endings depending on who wins, it doesn't make sense game wise. it will make this game great sure, but what about future installments? something as defining as the winner of the mage/templar war will likely have an impact on what is to come, and it would be too difficult for writers to make it work. fans will be pissed because their ending from DAIII was retconned, and nobody wins

This is the same problem that I see with a Mage or Templar victory ending.

[KainD]

Xilizhra wrote...

As for the other thing, the Qun is inherently evil. It demands an ideology of forceful religious conquest, horrific slavery of mages, and killing or lobotomizing anyone who doesn't immediately convert. All who support it are accessories (of course, many know no other life and I would certainly give any a chance to redeem themselves, but the Qun itself is evil to the core).

Qunari are like zombies, they exist just for the sake of it and convert or kill everyone who is not one of them. 

Modifié par KainD, 05 mars 2013 - 08:49 .

[MartialArtsMaster]

Xilizhra, Pasquale1234, this is exactly why I said I don't approve of the way Bioware handled this story and why I hope they acknowledge the problem in Dragon Age 3.

The Templars vs. Mages conflict is not ultimately a conflict between different points of a view. It's a conflict between entirely different concepts and premises as to what is unethical and unjust and what is ethical and just.

Such a conflict has no middle ground at all, only because you can't have a "middle" if the two parties cannot be called "sides" in the first place. They can be called "entire packages in their own right".

There is absolutely no way to solve this debate, because there aren't even any "shared premises", in the Aristotelian sense, to agree upon.

If we can't agree on whether or not it's wrong to imprison people because of what they MIGHT do, then we'll never reach an agreement as to whether or not it's wrong to force Mages into the circle.

If we can't agree on whether or not it's wrong to demonize an entire group based on the actions of a few, then we can't come to an agreement either about whether it was acceptable for Anders to bomb the Chantry or not, or whether or not it was acceptable for Templars and Fenris to treat all mages as all the same.

If we can't agree on whether or not it's acceptable to criticize an idea that is inherently unjust but is widely accepted by most of the public, then we'll never agree on whether or not Anders, or even mage-sympathizing players, are justified in criticizing the Circle system.

God, Bioware, if you're going to present conflicts between different perspectives, make sure they're different perspectives that we have some common ground on how to analyze.

Heck, if we can't agree on whether or not it's wrong to hurt innocent people, then we'll never agree on how to solve any ethical conflict at ALL, the Dragon Age II conflict included, because the very nature of ethics is whether or not our actions help or harm or do nothing to others.

This is literally an impossible dilemma. Somebody is going to be forced into SOMETHING against their will either way. It's not a matter of black, white, or shades of gray. It's a matter of black, white, gray, and colors versus the visual perception of aliens from the Regulus system or something.

[KainD]

@MartialArtsMaster That is what I understood when I was arguing with people about Morinth for a couple hundred pages back in the day of ME2. They said that she was a murderous sociopath, and that she should be killed, and I said that it was the outcome of Asari regulations towards Ardat-Yakshi, and that she did what she had to. We just had different views on life in general.

Modifié par KainD, 05 mars 2013 - 10:46 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: That's good for you - but I already consider anyone using blood magic damaged goods unworthy of trust and certainly not welcome anywhere near me.

@MartialArtsMaster: You know the Templars could be dissolved right?

The real problem becomes with power hungry mages who want mundane people to ignore their bloodlust (quite literally).

Well - and the totally idiotic mages that think blood mages are innocent doe eyed benefactors.

====

The Lucrosians should have sided against this rebellion - it is horrible for any sort of business a mage might want to run.

The Loyalists - by their very nature - must be either siding with the Templars or staying out of the war altogether (they're Loyal to the Chantry not the Templars)

The Isolationists - if they actually believe their view - should be heading for the hills.

The real disappointment are the Aequatarians - but whatever.

So that leaves an admittedly large number of psycho blood mage Libertarians (or whatever the name was for the DA 2 faction of mages).

As a mage player - I know at least one mage that won't be siding with this stupid rebellion.

====

All that being said - the Templars are just a faction of people - not a nation, not even a religion. From what I know - the Chantry has abandoned them (well, officially they broke from the Chantry).

So they're pitifully small as well.

The size of this conflict seems grossly overstated by a few cause head forum goers.

[Melima]

Sandal: One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide.
Bodahn: Huh. What's this?
Sandal: When he rises, everyone will see.
Bodahn: By the ancestors, what's gotten into you, my boy?
Sandal: Enchantment?
Bodahn: Hmph. That's more like it.

OP: Regarding your words about mages - "they are taught since birth that the Maker considers their magic a sin and an abomination" The Tevinters don't raise their mages as if they were cursed by the Maker. There was a time in Thedas before The Circle, Templars and the Chantry. Sandal's comment may be a prophecy about a future time in Thedas, which may clear up the conflict. We'll see. I don't see it as impossible to resolve. Mages could be raised as every other person with Maker-given talents in Thedas. Kings and governments could realize the percentage of mages in the population, and that they have rights and deserve punishments more in line with all people rather than overzealous laws. *shrugs* Nice topic.

[Fredward]

MartialArtsMaster wrote...

God, Bioware, if you're going to present conflicts between different perspectives, make sure they're different perspectives that we have some common ground on how to analyze.

Heck, if we can't agree on whether or not it's wrong to hurt innocent people, then we'll never agree on how to solve any ethical conflict at ALL, the Dragon Age II conflict included, because the very nature of ethics is whether or not our actions help or harm or do nothing to others.

This is literally an impossible dilemma. Somebody is going to be forced into SOMETHING against their will either way. It's not a matter of black, white, or shades of gray. It's a matter of black, white, gray, and colors versus the visual perception of aliens from the Regulus system or something.

I couldn't disagree any harder with this. Well I could but I might hurt something. A clean easy solution isn't necessary. This polarising issue forces people to choose a side and not have them compromise and come up with some utopian solution. It's actually kinda brillian IMHO. If there was a clearly right choice here everyone would choose that. It wouldn't even be a choice really. Twould be boring and this current situation is just so juicy in comparison.

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I already consider anyone using blood magic damaged goods unworthy of trust and certainly not welcome anywhere near me.
 

That's a shame. Personally I would encourage every mage to learn blood magic if just for the fact that it is a solid protection from templars that they have no tools to counter. 

[Goneaviking]

MartialArtsMaster wrote...

Xilizhra, Pasquale1234, this is exactly why I said I don't approve of the way Bioware handled this story and why I hope they acknowledge the problem in Dragon Age 3.

The Templars vs. Mages conflict is not ultimately a conflict between different points of a view. It's a conflict between entirely different concepts and premises as to what is unethical and unjust and what is ethical and just.

Such a conflict has no middle ground at all, only because you can't have a "middle" if the two parties cannot be called "sides" in the first place. They can be called "entire packages in their own right".

There is absolutely no way to solve this debate, because there aren't even any "shared premises", in the Aristotelian sense, to agree upon.

If we can't agree on whether or not it's wrong to imprison people because of what they MIGHT do, then we'll never reach an agreement as to whether or not it's wrong to force Mages into the circle.

If we can't agree on whether or not it's wrong to demonize an entire group based on the actions of a few, then we can't come to an agreement either about whether it was acceptable for Anders to bomb the Chantry or not, or whether or not it was acceptable for Templars and Fenris to treat all mages as all the same.

If we can't agree on whether or not it's acceptable to criticize an idea that is inherently unjust but is widely accepted by most of the public, then we'll never agree on whether or not Anders, or even mage-sympathizing players, are justified in criticizing the Circle system.

God, Bioware, if you're going to present conflicts between different perspectives, make sure they're different perspectives that we have some common ground on how to analyze.

Heck, if we can't agree on whether or not it's wrong to hurt innocent people, then we'll never agree on how to solve any ethical conflict at ALL, the Dragon Age II conflict included, because the very nature of ethics is whether or not our actions help or harm or do nothing to others.

This is literally an impossible dilemma. Somebody is going to be forced into SOMETHING against their will either way. It's not a matter of black, white, or shades of gray. It's a matter of black, white, gray, and colors versus the visual perception of aliens from the Regulus system or something.

I've only got two problems with their handling of the issue is the obviously repetitive nature of the depiction - all enemy mages consorted with demons or otherwise practiced blood magic, enemy templars were all about exerting their power on the mages regardless of their actions. That's how cartoon villains behaved when I was a kid in the 80s.

More importantly, the two poster kids for their extreme sides, Anders and Meredith, were completely absolved of their actions and creeping absolutism by external factors (spirtual possession and that lyrium sword) so as much as we condemn them for their actions they aren't honestly responsible for them. The dulls the point, instead of trying to make clear that over-indulgence in their ideology of choice and their total disinterest in dealing with the other side made them the villains of the piece years before the explosion it turns entirely human disputes and atrocities into cartoon madness.

Too bloody simplistic.

The fact that we don't have a clear bad guy, that both sides have valid concerns, and none of us are judging the issue by the same criteria or from the same starting point is entirely the point. That someone, or everyone, will be forced to take actions they aren't comfortable with is in my view an objective worth pursuing, and one that makes an important point that not everyone will be comfortable with.

There are no easy answers; no workable solution is going to please everyone; trying to achieve social change through consensus only guarantees that there will be no change.

[Xilizhra]

More importantly, the two poster kids for their extreme sides, Anders and Meredith, were completely absolved of their actions and creeping absolutism by external factors (spirtual possession and that lyrium sword) so as much as we condemn them for their actions they aren't honestly responsible for them. The dulls the point, instead of trying to make clear that over-indulgence in their ideology of choice and their total disinterest in dealing with the other side made them the villains of the piece years before the explosion it turns entirely human disputes and atrocities into cartoon madness.

But Anders has tried dealing with the Chantry before; he's tried repeatedly talking to Elthina. It just doesn't ever do anything, so he's ultimately moved to take drastic action. And Meredith was horrible even before the sword. There is no equivalence between them; one's an antihero and one is an out-and-out villain.

[Goneaviking]

Elthina wasn't the other side from either form of extremism, she was the game's paralyzed and indecisive status quo. Speaking to her would allay no one's concerns because she couldn't speak for either side of the conflict.

As head of the Chantry in Kirkwall it's unlikely that she would have spoken to just anyone who showed up at her door, for someone who doesn't already have a certain amount of standing to get a sit down with her they'll have to negotiate multiple layers of bureaucracy which will take time and a reasonable disposition. Anders out and out tells you he doesn't have that level of patience and the endless ranting and paranoid fantasy he exposes the player to doesn't bode well for his cause given that even people who sympathize with him, like myself, see him as an unstable loose cannon.

As for the alleged anti-hero status of the man: whether or not you agree with his cause he is a mass murderer who targeted helpless non-combatants as victims of his frustration instead of the Templars who he actually has a legitimate grievance against. There'd be a case that he was an anti-hero if he was going after Templars, his indiscriminate and remorseless attack mark him as a villain.

Before Meredith gets the lyrium sword she's an authoritarian able to use her influence to get her own way, but we never actually meet her before she's acquired the idol. We see her once in High Town, but we never see anything that connects her to the abuses perpetrated by her subordinates until Act 3, by which time she's had the lyrium idol/sword for years. Certainly longer than Bartrand and you know it affected him.

Even after she's gone off the deep end, the persecution she inflicts is driven by legitimate concerns about the dangers that mages pose to others, and to themselves. The one thing that puts her firmly into the villain category is that her reaction to the mass murder at the Chantry is to purge the Circle whom had nothing to do with it. Until that point she's just an authoritarian commander taking her power too far.

As for Elthina. Her ability to actually resolve the problem is overstated by Hawke, Orsino, Anders and her critics. She may have been the head of the Chantry in Kirkwall, but wasn't the head of the Chantry in Thedas; in addition to trying to keep Meredith in line she had to deal with zealots in her own ranks, the shifting politics of the city, and attending her actual duties as the spiritual figurehead of Kirkwalls Chantry.

In theory Meredith may have had to answer to Elthina, but in practice Elthina didn't have an army.