130 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

As head of the Chantry in Kirkwall it's unlikely that she would have spoken to just anyone who showed up at her door, for someone who doesn't already have a certain amount of standing to get a sit down with her they'll have to negotiate multiple layers of bureaucracy which will take time and a reasonable disposition. Anders out and out tells you he doesn't have that level of patience and the endless ranting and paranoid fantasy he exposes the player to doesn't bode well for his cause given that even people who sympathize with him, like myself, see him as an unstable loose cannon.

Actually, he tries speaking with her after finding out that the Tranquil Solution was rejected, and tries to get Hawke to do so before he makes his final move to see if she might change somehow, but she refuses to do so, even with hawke.

As for the alleged anti-hero status of the man: whether or not you agree with his cause he is a mass murderer who targeted helpless non-combatants as victims of his frustration instead of the Templars who he actually has a legitimate grievance against. There'd be a case that he was an anti-hero if he was going after Templars, his indiscriminate and remorseless attack mark him as a villain.

Elthina was in charge of the templars, and the only other people inside the Chantry at the time, from the cutscene, were other templars. Also, trying to blow up the Gallows would have killed all the mages as well. Elthina may have been a noncombatant, but she was also the (criminally neglectful) ruler of the city at the time, and in charge of Kirkwall's only standing army, even if she refused to actually use that power.

Before Meredith gets the lyrium sword she's an authoritarian able to use her influence to get her own way, but we never actually meet her before she's acquired the idol. We see her once in High Town, but we never see anything that connects her to the abuses perpetrated by her subordinates until Act 3, by which time she's had the lyrium idol/sword for years. Certainly longer than Bartrand and you know it affected him.

Did it actually do anything to Bartrand right away? He only seems to have sold it recently by the time of Act 2, and it was a slow, chronic creep of insanity.

Even after she's gone off the deep end, the persecution she inflicts is driven by legitimate concerns about the dangers that mages pose to others, and to themselves. The one thing that puts her firmly into the villain category is that her reaction to the mass murder at the Chantry is to purge the Circle whom had nothing to do with it. Until that point she's just an authoritarian commander taking her power too far.

Well, she also murders nonmage civilians who might have let mages pass through their homes (one of the components of A Noble Agenda is stopping her death squad), sends other templars who torture Dalish children at the beginning of Act 2 looking for Feynriel, does nothing to curb Ser Alrik or Karras... really, it goes on and on, and "an authoritarian commander taking her power too far" really is, in fact, a villain.

As for Elthina. Her ability to actually resolve the problem is overstated by Hawke, Orsino, Anders and her critics. She may have been the head of the Chantry in Kirkwall, but wasn't the head of the Chantry in Thedas; in addition to trying to keep Meredith in line she had to deal with zealots in her own ranks, the shifting politics of the city, and attending her actual duties as the spiritual figurehead of Kirkwalls Chantry.

By Act 3, the only problematic members of the Chantry were gone, and the only politics in the city were of factions she had direct control of. Meredith was still inclined to listen to Elthina, by all appearances, and if she wasn't, Elthina should have gotten Leliana to assassinate her, or something similar (she is the "left hand of the Divine," after all); remove her from power, in any case. And the templars killing Elthina would have provoked outright and very popular rebellion against them, probably getting them expelled from the city entirely.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Hero is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.

I see him as utter scum.

- too cowardly to be a Warden (Dragon Age equivalent of a deserter)
- uses a medical center as a front for his terrorist cell (not gonna argue it)
- releases a bomb in a population center killing countless non-enemies (watch the video of the explosion. The entire city is engulfed in falling debris and the streets are burning)
- is in love with his own messianic personality (his final speech is so demented)

That doesn't mean I think Meredith is any better.

I don't side with either faction - both need to be destroyed and rebuilt.

But I don't even think Inquisition is going to have this conflict a the forefront.

[Xilizhra]

- too cowardly to be a Warden (Dragon Age equivalent of a deserter)

He was almost murdered by another Warden, a former templar, who was taking control.

- uses a medical center as a front for his terrorist cell (not gonna argue it)

Not present until the very end of the game.

- releases a bomb in a population center killing countless non-enemies (watch the video of the explosion. The entire city is engulfed in falling debris and the streets are burning)

And yet, no corpses at all, unlike in the qunari invasion. It was nighttime by that point in any case, and the streets were likely mostly empty. Combined with the fact that Kirkwall builds in largely stone, and the people too poor to do so frequently would live underground in any case, the damage may not be as extensive as it looked.

- is in love with his own messianic personality (his final speech is so demented)

I thought it was great. Ah well.

But I don't even think Inquisition is going to have this conflict a the forefront.

I really, really hope that it does.

[Goneaviking]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, he tries speaking with her after finding out that the Tranquil Solution was rejected, and tries to get Hawke to do so before he makes his final move to see if she might change somehow, but she refuses to do so, even with hawke.

As I said, you don't just walk up to the head of the church in your city and expect to get a hearing.

Elthina was in charge of the templars, and the only other people inside the Chantry at the time, from the cutscene, were other templars. Also, trying to blow up the Gallows would have killed all the mages as well. Elthina may have been a noncombatant, but she was also the (criminally neglectful) ruler of the city at the time, and in charge of Kirkwall's only standing army, even if she refused to actually use that power.

No, Meredith was in charge of the templars. Elthina was head of the local Chantry which gives her influence over the local templars, but doesn't actually make her their boss. What influence she had over the templars was tenous at best, the templars answered directly to Meredith.

Elthina also wasn't the ruler of the city. In fact she had no temporal power beyond what influence she had as the spiritual mother of the city. Meredith was the de facto ruler of the city following the Viscount's death, and what power Elthina might otherwise have enjoyed would have been reduced given the involvement of members of the Chantry in provoking Qunari's outburst.

Did it actually do anything to Bartrand right away? He only seems to have sold it recently by the time of Act 2, and it was a slow, chronic creep of insanity.

The game doesn't say when he passed the idol on. It's worth noting that Bartrand betrays Varric and Hawke within seconds of touching the idol, it may be something he was going to do anyway but the way the idol keeps flares up when he closes the door, and when he tells Varric that he has no intention of sharing makes me wonder.

From the way it seemed to effect Bartrand and Meredith my supposition has been that it exagerated out their dominant traits (greed and paranoia respectively) and delusion and dependency came later.

Well, she also murders nonmage civilians who might have let mages pass through their homes (one of the components of A Noble Agenda is stopping her death squad), sends other templars who torture Dalish children at the beginning of Act 2 looking for Feynriel, does nothing to curb Ser Alrik or Karras... really, it goes on and on, and "an authoritarian commander taking her power too far" really is, in fact, a villain.

Meredith vetoed Alrik's proposed 'tranquil solution' so in fact she did curb his behaviour, and does she even know about Karras' excesses?

By Act 3, the only problematic members of the Chantry were gone, and the only politics in the city were of factions she had direct control of. Meredith was still inclined to listen to Elthina, by all appearances, and if she wasn't, Elthina should have gotten Leliana to assassinate her, or something similar (she is the "left hand of the Divine," after all); remove her from power, in any case. And the templars killing Elthina would have provoked outright and very popular rebellion against them, probably getting them expelled from the city entirely.

The game only shows you one zealot in the Chantry so there's only one? She's part of a faction which the Viscount specifically mentioned, and given that she's the only member of that faction we see die (aside from her Templar pawn that she throws to the wolves) there's no reason to believe that the faction has disappeared. Nor is there reason to believe that's the only problematic faction in the Chantry.

She had no influence over the mage underground. The people in Hightown were openly beginning to speak of rebellion (if not a faction yet it was about to become one).

She didn't have control over the Templars however much you wish to cast the blame entirely on the Chantry, her influence was limited by the fact that the Templars were a self-contained wing of the Chantry with it's own leadership and that bonds of camaraderie made the soldiers under Meredith's command much more hers than Elthina's.

The Circle was under Orsino's control directly, and under the thumb of Meredith which was quickly radicalizing them beyond the point they were willing to be controlled.

Leliana doesn't answer to Elthina. If she's the "Left hand of the Divine" then the Divine could order such a thing, but unless Elthina's been cultivating her own stable of assassins she just doesn't have the capacity to make a move like that at all.

The Templars couldn't openly kill Elthina without repercussions, but they were free to ignore her as the only power in the city backed politicised muscle. Blood in the street was precisely what Elthina was working to avoid by trying to stay out of the fight, if she'd openly picked a side it would have enflamed the issue.

Back to Anders. Starting a war to stop an injustice is like cutting down a forest to stop bushfires, it may ultimately work but the damage you do turns any win into a pyrrhic victory. He'd simply be a mass murderer if he hadn't kicked off a war, now he's responsible for consequences of his actions and he may very well be the greatest villain of the Dragon Age.

[Xilizhra]

As I said, you don't just walk up to the head of the church in your city and expect to get a hearing.

Hawke can do so with ease.

No, Meredith was in charge of the templars. Elthina was head of the local Chantry which gives her influence over the local templars, but doesn't actually make her their boss. What influence she had over the templars was tenous at best, the templars answered directly to Meredith.

No, the grand cleric is explicitly over the knight-commander in the chain of command. That's why the KC has to get permission from the GC for the Right of Annulment.

Elthina also wasn't the ruler of the city. In fact she had no temporal power beyond what influence she had as the spiritual mother of the city. Meredith was the de facto ruler of the city following the Viscount's death, and what power Elthina might otherwise have enjoyed would have been reduced given the involvement of members of the Chantry in provoking Qunari's outburst.

Only because of Elthina's aggressive neglect for three years; certainly Elthina has far more sway in popularity, Meredith just gives direct orders to the muscle. In any case, the whole Chantry involvement bit leading up to the qunari invasion seems to have been greatly glossed over.

From the way it seemed to effect Bartrand and Meredith my supposition has been that it exagerated out their dominant traits (greed and paranoia respectively) and delusion and dependency came later.

Meredith shows no difference in her actions between acts 1 and 2, and barely any in 3.

Meredith vetoed Alrik's proposed 'tranquil solution' so in fact she did curb his behaviour, and does she even know about Karras' excesses?

Yes, she curbed the thing he just asked permission for, but not on his repeated rape antics. And Karras' thing doesn't seem to have been that secret.

She didn't have control over the Templars however much you wish to cast the blame entirely on the Chantry, her influence was limited by the fact that the Templars were a self-contained wing of the Chantry with it's own leadership and that bonds of camaraderie made the soldiers under Meredith's command much more hers than Elthina's.

Even the templars were starting to think Meredith had gone nuts, including her second-in-command Cullen. And not one of them actually sided with Meredith at the end. I think Meredith was starting to alienate many of her own followers, and that Cullen and others, whatever their other faults, would stand with Elthina over Meredith.

Leliana doesn't answer to Elthina. If she's the "Left hand of the Divine" then the Divine could order such a thing, but unless Elthina's been cultivating her own stable of assassins she just doesn't have the capacity to make a move like that at all.

Elthina should have, in short, informed the Divine that Meredith was getting out of control, something that Leliana could have dealt with if Meredith couldn't just be fired. Of course, it was Elthina who appointed Meredith to begin with... certainly any turian looking at the situation would see the whole thing as largely Elthina's fault, and even as humans, we can see that there's quite a bit of it there.

Back to Anders. Starting a war to stop an injustice is like cutting down a forest to stop bushfires, it may ultimately work but the damage you do turns any win into a pyrrhic victory. He'd simply be a mass murderer if he hadn't kicked off a war, now he's responsible for consequences of his actions and he may very well be the greatest villain of the Dragon Age.

Actually, starting small fires in a forest is an efficient way to stop a big fire. Also, sometimes a war is necessary; would it have been superior to let certain factions in the 1940's just have their way with the rest of the world instead of having WW2?

[Goneaviking]

Xilizhra wrote...
Hawke can do so with ease.

Hawke isn't just anybody. The last scion of an important family that Elthina had a relationship with, wealthy, famous for acts of derring do some of which actually happened.
Anders was a scruffy nobody living in detritus and filth.
Perhaps it shouldn't make a difference, but it really does.

No, the grand cleric is explicitly over the knight-commander in the chain of command. That's why the KC has to get permission from the GC for the Right of Annulment.

All that means is that the system has checks and balances to try and rein in the behaviour of the templars.

Only because of Elthina's aggressive neglect for three years; certainly Elthina has far more sway in popularity, Meredith just gives direct orders to the muscle. In any case, the whole Chantry involvement bit leading up to the qunari invasion seems to have been greatly glossed over.

Aggressive neglect is an oxymoron. No such thing.
Also, Elthina had no claim on temporal power she's a head of the church not a head of state. Neither does Meredith, but unlike anyone else interested in taking power Meredith has an army at her command.
Seems to have been glossed over? Based on what?

Meredith shows no difference in her actions between acts 1 and 2, and barely any in 3.

Then you weren't paying enough attention.

Yes, she curbed the thing he just asked permission for, but not on his repeated rape antics. And Karras' thing doesn't seem to have been that secret.

And she knew about his "rape antics" for because she's omniscient and knows everything that happens within her order before it happens?
It doesn't have to have been particuliarly secret for it never to be brought to her attention. The mages are too scared of reprisals to report it, and they don't think they'll be listened to anyway. The other templars will be very reluctant to rat on each other. If no one tells her, she's got no way of knowing what's happening.

Even the templars were starting to think Meredith had gone nuts, including her second-in-command Cullen. And not one of them actually sided with Meredith at the end. I think Meredith was starting to alienate many of her own followers, and that Cullen and others, whatever their other faults, would stand with Elthina over Meredith.

At the end the Templars sided against someone that looked like their commander but who was throwing around blatant magical powers and was ranting like an abomination. They showed no signs of disloyalty to her prior to that, simply questioning her behaviour doesn't show they were getting ready to abandon her.
In any case there's no way that Elthina could know what the other templars were thinking if they weren't advertising whatever doubts they had. Trying to get rid of Meredith would have been a huge risk that would definitely have pushed her over the edge and had a great risk of starting the bloodshed Elthina was trying to avoid.

Elthina should have, in short, informed the Divine that Meredith was getting out of control, something that Leliana could have dealt with if Meredith couldn't just be fired. Of course, it was Elthina who appointed Meredith to begin with... certainly any turian looking at the situation would see the whole thing as largely Elthina's fault, and even as humans, we can see that there's quite a bit of it there.

The popes anointed the Holy Roman Emperors, that didn't give them the power to depose them at will or without consequence.
As for Elthina's communications with the Divine, well the Divine asked her to leave the city so she wouldn't get caught in the holy war she was preparing to launch. Don't see much help coming there.

Actually, starting small fires in a forest is an efficient way to stop a big fire. Also, sometimes a war is necessary; would it have been superior to let certain factions in the 1940's just have their way with the rest of the world instead of having WW2?

I didn't say starting small fires, I said cutting down the forest. I chose that scale differential intentionally because as much as the mages have suffered, the misery and death that will result from the war that Anders is desperate for are infinitely greater in scope.
Invoking the second world war was foolishness on your part because (1)those "certain factions" took it upon themselves to start a war which made it unavoidable; (2)the atrocities that "certain factions" are most infamous for occurred in no small part because of the war which was never fought with the objective of ending those behaviours, and even more so because (3)"certain factions" could only take power initially in the ruins left by the first world war which in it's majesty set up the scene for many of the other "necessary" wars we've had since then.


You can drop all the blame you want on Elthina, it doesn't remove Anders' responsibility for the horrors that are about to be inflicted on Thedas and it doesn't make him any less of a mass murderer for his wanton actions.

[Xilizhra]

Hawke isn't just anybody. The last scion of an important family that Elthina had a relationship with, wealthy, famous for acts of derring do some of which actually happened.
Anders was a scruffy nobody living in detritus and filth.
Perhaps it shouldn't make a difference, but it really does.

Elthina also didn't listen to Hawke's entreaties on the subject.

All that means is that the system has checks and balances to try and rein in the behaviour of the templars.

Which Elthina allowed to fail.

Aggressive neglect is an oxymoron. No such thing.
Also, Elthina had no claim on temporal power she's a head of the church not a head of state. Neither does Meredith, but unlike anyone else interested in taking power Meredith has an army at her command.
Seems to have been glossed over? Based on what?

Elthina should have moved to take power before Meredith became too dangerous. And no one seems to remember Petrice's role in anything.

And she knew about his "rape antics" for because she's omniscient and knows everything that happens within her order before it happens?
It doesn't have to have been particuliarly secret for it never to be brought to her attention. The mages are too scared of reprisals to report it, and they don't think they'll be listened to anyway. The other templars will be very reluctant to rat on each other. If no one tells her, she's got no way of knowing what's happening.

Proof enough of the vicious immorality that festers within the templars, of course. I doubt Meredith would particularly care either way.

At the end the Templars sided against someone that looked like their commander but who was throwing around blatant magical powers and was ranting like an abomination. They showed no signs of disloyalty to her prior to that, simply questioning her behaviour doesn't show they were getting ready to abandon her.
In any case there's no way that Elthina could know what the other templars were thinking if they weren't advertising whatever doubts they had. Trying to get rid of Meredith would have been a huge risk that would definitely have pushed her over the edge and had a great risk of starting the bloodshed Elthina was trying to avoid.

Given that Elthina's actual actions led to the greatest possible amount of bloodshed, her taking them to try to stop it rings rather hollow. You can't just let problems like this fester for years on end and hope they go away.

The popes anointed the Holy Roman Emperors, that didn't give them the power to depose them at will or without consequence.
As for Elthina's communications with the Divine, well the Divine asked her to leave the city so she wouldn't get caught in the holy war she was preparing to launch. Don't see much help coming there.

I suppose it's true that the Divine is also an idiot. Of course, many problems throughout both Thedas' history and our own could have been avoided if the proportion of total idiots in power was lower.

I didn't say starting small fires, I said cutting down the forest. I chose that scale differential intentionally because as much as the mages have suffered, the misery and death that will result from the war that Anders is desperate for are infinitely greater in scope.

No they're not. Not when considered over the course of a thousand years already, and the potential for thousands more to come, had he done nothing.

Invoking the second world war was foolishness on your part because (1)those "certain factions" took it upon themselves to start a war which made it unavoidable; (2)the atrocities that "certain factions" are most infamous for occurred in no small part because of the war which was never fought with the objective of ending those behaviours, and even more so because (3)"certain factions" could only take power initially in the ruins left by the first world war which in it's majesty set up the scene for many of the other "necessary" wars we've had since then.

The templars have been committing acts of war against the mages, again, for a thousand years, certainly giving reason upon reason to rise up before now. I'm surprised its taken this long, honestly. The mages are only defending themselves.

You can drop all the blame you want on Elthina, it doesn't remove Anders' responsibility for the horrors that are about to be inflicted on Thedas and it doesn't make him any less of a mass murderer for his wanton actions.

It's the choice of the templars to prosecute the war; all the mages did was secede from the Chantry.

[BouncyFrag]

Can't the writers resolve this issue?

[SgtElias]

BouncyFrag wrote...

Can't the writers resolve this issue?

Probably. But I hope they won't. I'm not usually one to say things like this, but I love how much debate this issue garners, even if it can be somewhat heated.

As to the topic (which I've followed, but not yet waded into), I agree with the OP. This debate (in my opinion) does boil down to a person's basic worldview that probably won't be changed for either side, no matter how much everyone argues.

I'm really looking forward to how (or even if) this'll be resolved for Inquisition.

[TJPags]

BouncyFrag wrote...

Can't the writers resolve this issue?

Of course they can.  They created the issue, it's their world, they certainly can resolve it.

The question - in addition to how they should, is if they should - or if they should even allow us to do so.

Let's face it, the OP is correct - many people feel strongly one way or another.  And many of them won't change their minds.

Create an ending in which the mages win - say, Circles are over, Chantry control of mages is done with, and mages go about their own business - and pro-Templar people will be unhappy (to say the least).

Create an ending in which Templars triumph - say, mages back in Circles, Chantry or some other group has control over them as now - and pro-Mage people will go beserk.

The other thing to consider is, of course, world import problems.  Since this issue determines mage freedom, basically, how does BW account for 2 radically different world states in future games?  This is well beyond whether, say, Allistair is King of Ferelden or if you recruit Loghain.  It's pretty much the difference between stopping the Blight and having it overrun the world.

[Medhia Nox]

@TJPags: Your last paragraph is exactly why I am confident Inquisition will only use the conflict as a backdrop.

I don't really care if they pick a canon - I think they should, but other forum goers would go insane over something like that.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 07 mars 2013 - 02:34 .

[Fredward]

I'm cool with Anders' actions at the end of DA2. Had he done nothing the persecution of mages would have gone on indefinitely. Now I understand that people go "BUT THINK ABOUT HOW MANY moar PEOPLE WILL DIE!!!1" and then argued that the "greater good" principle doesn't hold water. Nevermind that that is EXACTLY the principle keeping ALL the mages imprisoned for their entire lives based on the actions of a few.

If war is what it takes to change the world, so be it.

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...
I don't really care if they pick a canon - I think they should, but other forum goers would go insane over something like that. 

But there needs not be a canon on Mage/Templar triumph, it is the most logical if they both fail. Mages and Templars both oblitirated by eachother, and Inquisitors are taken with some REAL threat that is behind the conflict in the first place. Then there can be that earlier discussed Qunari invasion and Tevinter involvment and stuff. Basically I think that both Mages and Templars should be destroyed so much that it would take quite some time until it becomes an issue again, only after both sides rebuild. 

[TJPags]

KainD wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
I don't really care if they pick a canon - I think they should, but other forum goers would go insane over something like that. 

But there needs not be a canon on Mage/Templar triumph, it is the most logical if they both fail. Mages and Templars both oblitirated by eachother, and Inquisitors are taken with some REAL threat that is behind the conflict in the first place. Then there can be that earlier discussed Qunari invasion and Tevinter involvment and stuff. Basically I think that both Mages and Templars should be destroyed so much that it would take quite some time until it becomes an issue again, only after both sides rebuild. 

Mages and Templars obliterate each other.

I can see perhaps the Templar order vanishing.

But how do mages just 'disappear' or 'end'?  Do people stop being born a mage?  If so, how?

[KainD]

TJPags wrote...

KainD wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
I don't really care if they pick a canon - I think they should, but other forum goers would go insane over something like that. 

But there needs not be a canon on Mage/Templar triumph, it is the most logical if they both fail. Mages and Templars both oblitirated by eachother, and Inquisitors are taken with some REAL threat that is behind the conflict in the first place. Then there can be that earlier discussed Qunari invasion and Tevinter involvment and stuff. Basically I think that both Mages and Templars should be destroyed so much that it would take quite some time until it becomes an issue again, only after both sides rebuild. 

Mages and Templars obliterate each other.

I can see perhaps the Templar order vanishing.

But how do mages just 'disappear' or 'end'?  Do people stop being born a mage?  If so, how?

I meant all the orginized, trained mages. I'm not sure what will be done with all the newborn ones after all this wat is over. 

[Harle Cerulean]

KainD wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KainD wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
I don't really care if they pick a canon - I think they should, but other forum goers would go insane over something like that. 

But there needs not be a canon on Mage/Templar triumph, it is the most logical if they both fail. Mages and Templars both oblitirated by eachother, and Inquisitors are taken with some REAL threat that is behind the conflict in the first place. Then there can be that earlier discussed Qunari invasion and Tevinter involvment and stuff. Basically I think that both Mages and Templars should be destroyed so much that it would take quite some time until it becomes an issue again, only after both sides rebuild. 

Mages and Templars obliterate each other.

I can see perhaps the Templar order vanishing.

But how do mages just 'disappear' or 'end'?  Do people stop being born a mage?  If so, how?

I meant all the orginized, trained mages. I'm not sure what will be done with all the newborn ones after all this wat is over. 

Well, I saw someone suggest earlier that killing and eating Templars would solve two problems at once: the war and world hunger.  But if you killed and ate the mages instead, you'd have no war and a replenishing food supply!  Sounds like a plan to me.  

[KainD]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Well, I saw someone suggest earlier that killing and eating Templars would solve two problems at once: the war and world hunger.  But if you killed and ate the mages instead, you'd have no war and a replenishing food supply!  Sounds like a plan to me.  

And then the Qunari come with cannon balls and  fireballs, and then you realize you don't have one or the other. Dum-dum. 

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Can't the writers resolve this issue?

Of course they can.  They created the issue, it's their world, they certainly can resolve it.

The question - in addition to how they should, is if they should - or if they should even allow us to do so.

Let's face it, the OP is correct - many people feel strongly one way or another.  And many of them won't change their minds.

Create an ending in which the mages win - say, Circles are over, Chantry control of mages is done with, and mages go about their own business - and pro-Templar people will be unhappy (to say the least).

Create an ending in which Templars triumph - say, mages back in Circles, Chantry or some other group has control over them as now - and pro-Mage people will go beserk.

The other thing to consider is, of course, world import problems.  Since this issue determines mage freedom, basically, how does BW account for 2 radically different world states in future games?  This is well beyond whether, say, Allistair is King of Ferelden or if you recruit Loghain.  It's pretty much the difference between stopping the Blight and having it overrun the world.

The writers have said that keeping mages in the Circle made it difficult for them to keep coming up with reasons for mage party members to just be wandering around outside, available for recruitment.

So whatever happens, I highly doubt mages will be going back into Chantry-controlled Circles.

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Can't the writers resolve this issue?

Of course they can.  They created the issue, it's their world, they certainly can resolve it.

The question - in addition to how they should, is if they should - or if they should even allow us to do so.

Let's face it, the OP is correct - many people feel strongly one way or another.  And many of them won't change their minds.

Create an ending in which the mages win - say, Circles are over, Chantry control of mages is done with, and mages go about their own business - and pro-Templar people will be unhappy (to say the least).

Create an ending in which Templars triumph - say, mages back in Circles, Chantry or some other group has control over them as now - and pro-Mage people will go beserk.

The other thing to consider is, of course, world import problems.  Since this issue determines mage freedom, basically, how does BW account for 2 radically different world states in future games?  This is well beyond whether, say, Allistair is King of Ferelden or if you recruit Loghain.  It's pretty much the difference between stopping the Blight and having it overrun the world.

The writers have said that keeping mages in the Circle made it difficult for them to keep coming up with reasons for mage party members to just be wandering around outside, available for recruitment.

So whatever happens, I highly doubt mages will be going back into Chantry-controlled Circles.

Really?

Mage companions, a review:

DA:O

Morrigan: Apostate
Wynne: Recruited from the Circle Tower after you help her save the Tower; she offers to go with you

DA:A
Anders: rescued from Templars after he escaped
Velana: Dalish

WH
Finn: Recruited from Circle Tower after helping you research; don't recall if he asks to go or if you ask him

DA2
Anders: Apostate
Merrill: Dalish
Bethany: Apostate; your sister

Doesn't seem too hard.  8 mage companions, only 2 from the Tower.  Who says mage companions need to come out of the Circles?

As for recruiting mages from Circles: in the world BW created, that's where mages are supposed to be.  Need a mage?  Go there and ask for one.

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...
Doesn't seem too hard.  8 mage companions, only 2 from the Tower.  Who says mage companions need to come out of the Circles?

Nobody said they have to, but when it's established that most mages wind up there, and that most apostates live in secret, it gets increasingly harder to come up with plausible reasons for their availability.

As for recruiting mages from Circles: in the world BW created, that's where mages are supposed to be.  Need a mage?  Go there and ask for one.

They're not allowed to just leave whenever they feel like, man. Wynne needed special permission and the fact that Finn was allowed out strikes me as a plot hole.

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Doesn't seem too hard.  8 mage companions, only 2 from the Tower.  Who says mage companions need to come out of the Circles?

Nobody said they have to, but when it's established that most mages wind up there, and that most apostates live in secret, it gets increasingly harder to come up with plausible reasons for their availability.

As for recruiting mages from Circles: in the world BW created, that's where mages are supposed to be.  Need a mage?  Go there and ask for one.

They're not allowed to just leave whenever they feel like, man. Wynne needed special permission and the fact that Finn was allowed out strikes me as a plot hole.

Come on, characters in RPG's wind up in shady places and middle of nowhere towns all the time.  Easy to find people living off the grid in those places.

As for Finn: Well, that PC who asked for him to go was the WC of Ferelden and/or Hero of Ferelden and/or a bunch of other important things.  If your PC is important enough, they can get approval for a mage from the Circle to accompany them.

All I'm saying is, it sure seems easy enough to do.  That just seems like an excuse for "we don't like the Circle system we set up".  If the writers really find it that hard, maybe they need to think harder.

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...
Come on, characters in RPG's wind up in shady places and middle of nowhere towns all the time.  Easy to find people living off the grid in those places.

As for Finn: Well, that PC who asked for him to go was the WC of Ferelden and/or Hero of Ferelden and/or a bunch of other important things.  If your PC is important enough, they can get approval for a mage from the Circle to accompany them.

All I'm saying is, it sure seems easy enough to do.  That just seems like an excuse for "we don't like the Circle system we set up".  If the writers really find it that hard, maybe they need to think harder.

It was one of the reasons, not the reason. I'm sure there are plenty of others.

Regardless, if the series is about the history of the Dragon Age, then the setting needs to go through dramatic changes anyway. A static setting is boring, and why would the games be set in the Dragon Age if nothing noteworthy happened during that time?

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Come on, characters in RPG's wind up in shady places and middle of nowhere towns all the time.  Easy to find people living off the grid in those places.

As for Finn: Well, that PC who asked for him to go was the WC of Ferelden and/or Hero of Ferelden and/or a bunch of other important things.  If your PC is important enough, they can get approval for a mage from the Circle to accompany them.

All I'm saying is, it sure seems easy enough to do.  That just seems like an excuse for "we don't like the Circle system we set up".  If the writers really find it that hard, maybe they need to think harder.

It was one of the reasons, not the reason. I'm sure there are plenty of others.

Regardless, if the series is about the history of the Dragon Age, then the setting needs to go through dramatic changes anyway. A static setting is boring, and why would the games be set in the Dragon Age if nothing noteworthy happened during that time?

Well, there were these dragons showing up again . . .and then there was was this Blight . . . .

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Come on, characters in RPG's wind up in shady places and middle of nowhere towns all the time.  Easy to find people living off the grid in those places.

As for Finn: Well, that PC who asked for him to go was the WC of Ferelden and/or Hero of Ferelden and/or a bunch of other important things.  If your PC is important enough, they can get approval for a mage from the Circle to accompany them.

All I'm saying is, it sure seems easy enough to do.  That just seems like an excuse for "we don't like the Circle system we set up".  If the writers really find it that hard, maybe they need to think harder.

It was one of the reasons, not the reason. I'm sure there are plenty of others.

Regardless, if the series is about the history of the Dragon Age, then the setting needs to go through dramatic changes anyway. A static setting is boring, and why would the games be set in the Dragon Age if nothing noteworthy happened during that time?

Well, there were these dragons showing up again . . .and then there was was this Blight . . . .

Not every game can deal with dragons and the blight.

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Come on, characters in RPG's wind up in shady places and middle of nowhere towns all the time.  Easy to find people living off the grid in those places.

As for Finn: Well, that PC who asked for him to go was the WC of Ferelden and/or Hero of Ferelden and/or a bunch of other important things.  If your PC is important enough, they can get approval for a mage from the Circle to accompany them.

All I'm saying is, it sure seems easy enough to do.  That just seems like an excuse for "we don't like the Circle system we set up".  If the writers really find it that hard, maybe they need to think harder.

It was one of the reasons, not the reason. I'm sure there are plenty of others.

Regardless, if the series is about the history of the Dragon Age, then the setting needs to go through dramatic changes anyway. A static setting is boring, and why would the games be set in the Dragon Age if nothing noteworthy happened during that time?

Well, there were these dragons showing up again . . .and then there was was this Blight . . . .

Not every game can deal with dragons and the blight.

True.  But is Dragon Age going to be the Age when EVERYTHING happens in Thedas?

This is the world they created, the series they chose to do.  If they're running into problems because of the world they created, well . . . . it's their problem.