252 réponses à ce sujet

[DHKany]

just played some AUI reegar.


Jesus Christ.

[Pugz82]

DHKany wrote...

just played some AUI reegar.


Jesus Christ.

Yup.

[TuringPoint]

Geth have a penalty for their robot mode, but they aren't limited by grenades.  

It's a game.  Nerfing everything doesn't make it more fun; it makes combat more static and monotonous.  I guess that's what some people want.

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 février 2013 - 02:46 .

[Original Twigman]

cowwy wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

cowwy wrote...

Brownfinger wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...



Claim: Defense matrix is not an OP

Grounds: A mediocre/poor player won't be better with Defense Matrix

Backing: The AIU needs to get in close range in order to full utilize her capabilities. Getting in close range requires strong situational awareness.

Warrant: It is generally accepted that mediocre/poor players do not have strong situational awareness and cannot react with fast enough reactions in order to compensate.

Qualifier: The weaknesses of this character are reduced as difficulty decreases... like all characters.

Burn these words on the surface of the moon with a laser.
As an aside, has anyone noticed that people making pro AIU arguments generally have better grammar, express themselves with greater measures of calm and intelligence, and the antagonists are just kind of angsty? Not wholly relevant, I just thought it was a fascinating circumstance.

Well first of all I disagree with your notion that all people who think the AIU is overpowered are "angsty", and I can point to several posts with people raging that they don't want her to get nerfed and all people who do should go play Halo and Battlefield.

@Stikman:

The backing is false. It's helpful to get in close with her kit, but it's not necessary at all. All shotguns are capable of medium range combat minus the Raider, Reegar, and Piranha. And in addition to that the Crusader is capable of long range combat as well. Also there's no mandate that says you have to use a shotgun on her to perform well. She merely improves the already powerful shotgun class of weapon.

you make a good point, yet i don't think its too off base that it would make it false. If i put this in the qualifier the integrity of the grounds would still be okay.

The problematic part of the backing, and overall issue with the argument, is that it is based on the assumption that "in order to fully optimize, you must get close."

only issue with that is, A) how do we define "fully optimize" and how do we know you have to get in close to do so.

At this point in time, i believe the status quo believes you need to put yourself in compromising (Close quarters) in order to fully maximize her.

If someone is able to perform better due to defense matrix and without having to get in close, well... then you have an argument that is shot, because that will be a heck of a lot easier for a mediocre player to do well with than CQC

Just because she's not fully optimized with a different weapon doesn't make her any less OP. The root of the whole problem with the kit is that Repair Matrix gives too many bonuses for no penalty.

"Fully optimize" is not the one with the nebulous definition, OP is. If your definition of OP is that it trivializes all other classes in the game then we're at an impasse, because that's an unrefutable argument. Because you can point to the GI or the TGI as being on par with her, even if there are plenty of other classes that fall way below her performance and survivability.

The problem with her is the ridiculous synergy that her class has. If repair matrix didn't give you a movement speed bonus I don't think it would be quite as bad, but the constant shield regen is ridiculous as well. The extra shotgun bonus is complimented too well by the movement speed bonus in my opinion and with her ability to take more fire and sustain her DPS better is what makes her overpowered.

The counterclaim isn't bad. Its interesting.

It just doesn't prove the status quo to be untrue... which is what a counterclaim needs to do first before its validated as a counterclaim.

Unfortunately (but not for me!), claiming that it is OP due to the synergy isn't much in way of proving that the class needs to be nerfed (despite evidence of its incredible synergy) until it is proven that: a mediocre player benefits grossly with the kit, as the defense matrix allows them to perform well beyond their means to the point that no other character need be selected as this is "easy mode"

Defense matrix =/= easy mode, despite revives... which is the crux of it... not the DR, speed, or recharge shields, as once you are gated, you can dropped easily due to the lack of shields/health and gate cooldown.

There are plenty of analogies that can be made to bolster the status quo... however i have left them out... for now

[cowwy]

Original Stikman wrote...

The counterclaim isn't bad. Its interesting.

It just doesn't prove the status quo to be untrue... which is what a counterclaim needs to do first before its validated as a counterclaim.

Unfortunately (but not for me!), claiming that it is OP due to the synergy isn't much in way of proving that the class needs to be nerfed (despite evidence of its incredible synergy) until it is proven that: a mediocre player benefits grossly with the kit, as the defense matrix allows them to perform well beyond their means to the point that no other character need be selected as this is "easy mode"

Defense matrix =/= easy mode, despite revives... which is the crux of it... not the DR, speed, or recharge shields, as once you are gated, you can dropped easily due to the lack of shields/health and gate cooldown.

There are plenty of analogies that can be made to bolster the status quo... however i have left them out... for now

Overpowered =/= easy mode. You're singling in on mediocre players as if how those kinds of players play dictates what is effective and what is not. I'll give you an example to the contrary. In Super Smash Bros: Brawl, Meta Knight is widely recognized as the most overpowered class in the game, however a mediocre player wouldn't be able to beat a good player if they were using Meta Knight and the good player was using a different character because they don't understand how to utilize the class to its fullest potential. The class has the potential to dominate aerial and ledge combat and can counter just about every move the opponent makes if the player knows what they are doing. This is why if you look at competitive battles in this game you can see that in a lot of them either both players are using Meta Knight or neither are because it got banned. (This depends on the date of the video you watch)

However this class has an advantage that only one other infiltrator has, and that is a way to restore shields while in cloak. This allows you to dump aggro while simultaneously restoring shields and giving you time to restore your gates. The price for speed in this game is that you are usually squishier and cannot easily restore shields without putting yourself in harm's way (e.g. Fury and Drell Vanguard). This class allows you to be ridiculously fast, super tanky, and have absurd DPS potential. So my question is what is the downside? That they take grenades? Doesn't matter for the TGI and 22 seconds is a very long time, much longer than he has. That you might get sync killed because you died while surrounded by enemies? That's no one's fault but the person who's playing and shouldn't be considered in balance.

[Original Twigman]

@cowwy super tanky? eh... I would probably leave that out. It definitely allows her to be in CQC with more survivability, though.

the comparison with the super smash bros is tough, given that its a pvp...

trade off? you have to be CQC to utilize her, which is left to higher skilled players... thats all there is to it. Her debuff goes 15 meters, Max. And aside from the crusader, no shotgun is consistently very effective at mid-long range, and most people don't even know how, or like to, use it.

At the end of the day, she won't be killing things faster than a drell/geth infiltrator on most maps, these guys can stay at a distance and survive. Up close becomes a huge risk with less reward, as they can be more effective mid-long range (hence the sniper damage increase or use of ARs with TGI/GI).  So when put up against high skilled players, what does it matter if she still can't even kill as fast as them?

She needs to weild a shotgun as she doesn't have any weapon passives that are unique other than that.
She needs to get in close and quickly, so she has speed bonuses that can be applied
she needs to be able to survive without dropping easy to be up close, so she needs either higher health/sheilds or defense matrix bonus powers

the auto-rez is negligible.

At the end of the day, the biggest question is: Which would you prefer, high shields/health 1000/1000 base, or the shield recharge + DR?.... would it make a difference?

Modifié par Original Stikman, 28 février 2013 - 03:32 .

[Original Twigman]

Whats funny is i can't see 2-3 pugs in a lobby using this character.... thats some eye-brow raising stuff

[Saints]

Original Stikman wrote...

Whats funny is i can't see 2-3 pugs in a lobby using this character.... thats some eye-brow raising stuff

I don't see it at all in pugs.

[cowwy]

Original Stikman wrote...

@cowwy super tanky? eh... I would probably leave that out. It definitely allows her to be in CQC with more survivability, though.

the comparison with the super smash bros is tough, given that its a pvp...

trade off? you have to be CQC to utilize her, which is left to higher skilled players... thats all there is to it. Her debuff goes 15 meters, Max. And aside from the crusader, no shotgun is consistently very effective at mid-long range, and most people don't even know how, or like to, use it.

At the end of the day, she won't be killing things faster than a drell/geth infiltrator on most maps, these guys can stay at a distance and survive. Up close becomes a huge risk with less reward, as they can be more effective mid-long range (hence the sniper damage increase or use of ARs with TGI/GI).  So when put up against high skilled players, what does it matter if she still can't even kill as fast as them?

She needs to weild a shotgun as she doesn't have any weapon passives that are unique other than that.
She needs to get in close and quickly, so she has speed bonuses that can be applied
she needs to be able to survive without dropping easy to be up close, so she needs either higher health/sheilds or defense matrix bonus powers

the auto-rez is negligible.

At the end of the day, the biggest question is: Which would you prefer, high shields/health 1000/1000 base, or the shield recharge + DR + movement speed buff + auto gel?.... would it make a difference?

Well clearly we're at an impasse if you think auto-rez is negligible. I also disagree that she won't be killing things faster than other classes . She can travel faster than other classes and because of the shield regen put out more sustained DPS than the GI specifically.

She needs to wield a shotgun in the same way that any other infiltrator needs to wield a sniper rifle, it's simply not true.
She does not need to get in close, it merely increases her damage output.
She can survive far easier than a GI or QMI with her constantly regenning shields.

I would take a faster movement speed + DR + constant shield recharge + free medi-gel any day of the week because it is clearly the superior option. This kit can do so many things that tankier kits wouldn't dream of. For instance she can run into a spawn, snap freeze to debuff an entire spawn and kill several mooks in the few seconds it would take a tankier class like the Krodept to even run over to it. And if you happened to get shot one too many times and get downed it wouldn't matter because you can just walk it off and apply another RM.

[Mindfane]

@OP: This is exactly how I feel.

Repair matrix can get you into trouble. Without the self-rez, when you go down, you wait until your buddies clear the area till you use the medi-gel(if they did not revive you). But with this auto-rez, there is no such option and from my experience, its almost like popping a Ops-Survival Kit - a bit worse because you lose control of your character.

For me the auto-rez sometimes fails to work even though RM is active and I was not rezed before. Someone in another thread told me that auto-rez will not work if you are killed by DOT. Is that true?

[lightswitch]

Original Stikman wrote...

*a lot of things were said, and then...*

Because this character has one of the poorest Fitness trees...

*and then I stopped reading*

I stopped reading because this just isn't true. She has a fitness tree which is very similar to a Turian. The same Turians which Bioware once upon a time thought were so tanky that they shouldn't be able to dodge. Seriously, IIRC a full fitness AIU has over 700 health and 1400 shields. The first build I used on her was 6/3/6/5/6, built specifically for maximum survivability, and let me assure you: it's absurd. This spec can stand in front of two banshees and tank all their warp balls without ever hitting shield gate. Now I'm toying around with a 6/6/4/6/4 build and I still have over 600 health and 1000 shields.

So let's put this in the clearest terms possible: AIU has the tankiness of a Turian, the speed of a Drell, the dodges and agility of a Shadow, a 40% damage reduction, 15 seconds (base) of shield regen, AND the ability to auto revive when she dies.

Drell survive on their speed alone. Turians just on their toughness. AIU gets both and a lot more.

On a less relevant note...

Brownfinger wrote...

As an aside, has anyone noticed that people making pro AIU arguments generally have better grammar, express themselves with greater measures of calm and intelligence, and the antagonists are just kind of angsty?

No, more the opposite actually. Here's an example: 

Dimlor wrote...

Can I at least try it out for one goddamned time before you whiners get it nerfed into oblivion?

There are many more like, I could find them for you if you like. But I think this perception you have is all in your head. It's like how people tend to caricaturize those with different political views as being stupid hateful ingrates.

Modifié par lightswitch, 28 février 2013 - 04:25 .

[Diablerist666]

Not being able to roll after a revive has nothing to do with the Matrix but with lag. I'm rolling fine on host.

[Original Twigman]

Heri wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

@cowwy super tanky? eh... I would probably leave that out. It definitely allows her to be in CQC with more survivability, though.

the comparison with the super smash bros is tough, given that its a pvp...

trade off? you have to be CQC to utilize her, which is left to higher skilled players... thats all there is to it. Her debuff goes 15 meters, Max. And aside from the crusader, no shotgun is consistently very effective at mid-long range, and most people don't even know how, or like to, use it.

At the end of the day, she won't be killing things faster than a drell/geth infiltrator on most maps, these guys can stay at a distance and survive. Up close becomes a huge risk with less reward, as they can be more effective mid-long range (hence the sniper damage increase or use of ARs with TGI/GI).  So when put up against high skilled players, what does it matter if she still can't even kill as fast as them?

She needs to weild a shotgun as she doesn't have any weapon passives that are unique other than that.
She needs to get in close and quickly, so she has speed bonuses that can be applied
she needs to be able to survive without dropping easy to be up close, so she needs either higher health/sheilds or defense matrix bonus powers

the auto-rez is negligible.

At the end of the day, the biggest question is: Which would you prefer, high shields/health 1000/1000 base, or the shield recharge + DR?.... would it make a difference?

She can't kill as fast as who? Your argument that ranged classes are automatically better than up-close ones is not grounded in reality. Maps in this game are not wide open spaces where a sniper can stand in one spot and see every enemy at once. I'm pretty sure EDI can kill as fast as anyone, and last I checked the fastest solo plat time was by a Fury.

its not about range.

Drell infiltrator has range + speed + recon mine (a crowd controlling)
QMI has range + Tac Scan (for bosses) + arc grenades (one of the best grenades + crowd control)
GI has range + huntermode (with speed, rof, accuracy and vision bonuses) + PM (one of the best almost-instant debuffers that also staggers aka crowd control)

Those are three infiltrators that can easily compete with her if not better, with the QMI probably being the weakest of the three.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Diablerist666 wrote...

Not being able to roll after a revive has nothing to do with the Matrix but with lag. I'm rolling fine on host.

Same. The only time Repair Matrix fails you is when you're off-host with moderate lag. With enough lag, you won't even revive sometimes.

Otherwise, you can pretty much roll out all but the worst pileups.

Original Stikman wrote...

its not about range.

Drell infiltrator has range + speed + recon mine (a crowd controlling)
QMI has range + Tac Scan (for bosses) + arc grenades (one of the best grenades + crowd control)
GI has range + huntermode (with speed, rof, accuracy and vision bonuses) + PM (one of the best almost-instant debuffers that also staggers aka crowd control)

Those are three infiltrators that can easily compete with her if not better, with the QMI probably being the weakest of the three.

I don't find that EDI can kill any faster than any of the above. But I can't imagine she could lag behind by much, if all. However, with EDI, it's a lot easier to rack up the kill count because her survivability is unmatched... Nevermind the revive, just being able to regen fast while in TC is just crazy.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 28 février 2013 - 05:37 .

[Original Twigman]

lightswitch wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

*a lot of things were said, and then...*

Because this character has one of the poorest Fitness trees...

*and then I stopped reading*

she has one of the poorest fitness trees because you get -15% health/shields than almost every single class if you fully spec into it.... so 1400 might be an exageration (if someone can confirm)

also...not specing into Snap Freezes Debuff?.... you can't argue OP when you aren't even factoring in the damage.

A vorcha can take two banshee warp balls... doesn't mean much. Just like the vorcha, she will go down EASY with any rapid-fire hard hitting enemy (Geth, ravagers, scions). Vorcha are not tanky

Modifié par Original Stikman, 28 février 2013 - 05:31 .

[Original Twigman]

cowwy wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

@cowwy super tanky? eh... I would probably leave that out. It definitely allows her to be in CQC with more survivability, though.

the comparison with the super smash bros is tough, given that its a pvp...

trade off? you have to be CQC to utilize her, which is left to higher skilled players... thats all there is to it. Her debuff goes 15 meters, Max. And aside from the crusader, no shotgun is consistently very effective at mid-long range, and most people don't even know how, or like to, use it.

At the end of the day, she won't be killing things faster than a drell/geth infiltrator on most maps, these guys can stay at a distance and survive. Up close becomes a huge risk with less reward, as they can be more effective mid-long range (hence the sniper damage increase or use of ARs with TGI/GI).  So when put up against high skilled players, what does it matter if she still can't even kill as fast as them?

She needs to weild a shotgun as she doesn't have any weapon passives that are unique other than that.
She needs to get in close and quickly, so she has speed bonuses that can be applied
she needs to be able to survive without dropping easy to be up close, so she needs either higher health/sheilds or defense matrix bonus powers

the auto-rez is negligible.

At the end of the day, the biggest question is: Which would you prefer, high shields/health 1000/1000 base, or the shield recharge + DR + movement speed buff + auto gel?.... would it make a difference?

Well clearly we're at an impasse if you think auto-rez is negligible. I also disagree that she won't be killing things faster than other classes . She can travel faster than other classes and because of the shield regen put out more sustained DPS than the GI specifically.

She needs to wield a shotgun in the same way that any other infiltrator needs to wield a sniper rifle, it's simply not true.
She does not need to get in close, it merely increases her damage output.
She can survive far easier than a GI or QMI with her constantly regenning shields.

I would take a faster movement speed + DR + constant shield recharge + free medi-gel any day of the week because it is clearly the superior option. This kit can do so many things that tankier kits wouldn't dream of. For instance she can run into a spawn, snap freeze to debuff an entire spawn and kill several mooks in the few seconds it would take a tankier class like the Krodept to even run over to it. And if you happened to get shot one too many times and get downed it wouldn't matter because you can just walk it off and apply another RM.

I agree. Until you can find a rebuttal to prove that the kit is gamebreaking (she gets played at the expense of other classes, or she is picked over other infilrtrators because of her powers) then you have the place to make a counter argument about why these things are problems. Right now, these things aren't really a problem.

I mean.. with the example you used about tankier kits running into spawns... i have done that so many times with.. vangaurds....

I mean.. asari vangaurd can charge and get her shields back... nuke a spawn with a grenade.... and they are done.... any vangaurd is just as tanky and can move just as fast.

but i digres... you have to prove the status quo is wrong in that its not gamebreaking, then provide a counterclaim

essentially what i am saying is.. you are jumping the gun with the argument. It can be valid, but there are some prior steps that need to hapen first.

[Xeraphas]

This is a confusing character in some respects because her health/shields claim to be fairly high with one high level 18 edi infiltrator specced, she has about 675 health and 1300 shields maybe. This is what is claimed on paper so to speak but in practice she seems to get dropped almost as fast as a volus or a Talon (who atm is arguably the single weakest character health wise regardless of what his health shield numbers say, I drop playing him faster than any character ever, even than a level 1 volus with no health specs.) So as I said in other posts, given she is for some reason pretty weak despite supposedly decent health and shield stats, she NEEDS repair matrix and revives. She goes down more times than anyone boxing Mike Tyson.

Btw, in the stream vids, the devs themselves claimed that the Cabal, not the Edi is the quickest character.

Modifié par Xeraphas, 28 février 2013 - 05:39 .

[PureGeth]

As soon as I get downed by it I get back up and I'm fine. I rarely, if at all ever get staggered. I pop another, cloak and run away if need be.

[Original Twigman]

PureGeth wrote...

As soon as I get downed by it I get back up and I'm fine. I rarely, if at all ever get staggered. I pop another, cloak and run away if need be.

You mostly play silver.....

this is for gold +

gold is typically the standard for critiquing builds/kits

[Original Twigman]

Xeraphas wrote...

This is a confusing character in some respects because her health/shields claim to be fairly high with one high level 18 edi infiltrator specced, she has about 675 health and 1300 shields maybe. This is what is claimed on paper so to speak but in practice she seems to get dropped almost as fast as a volus or a Talon (who atm is arguably the single weakest character health wise regardless of what his health shield numbers say, I drop playing him faster than any character ever, even than a level 1 volus with no health specs.) So as I said in other posts, given she is for some reason pretty weak despite supposedly decent health and shield stats, she NEEDS repair matrix and revives. She goes down more times than anyone boxing Mike Tyson.

Btw, in the stream vids, the devs themselves claimed that the Cabal, not the Edi is the quickest character.

if her base is 750 shields its impossible for her to have the same shields/health as a turian with both at max fitness as she doesn't get the same bonuses (-15% difference).... i don't where the claims are coming from either, so ill wait til someone posts a pic or something since im not on my game

[Xeraphas]

It says it in her health shields stats on the character screen when I play the game.

[Original Twigman]

Xeraphas wrote...

It says it in her health shields stats on the character screen when I play the game.

so its 1300 shields maxed fitness? (which only a silly man would do)

[RaptorSolutions]

Original Stikman wrote...

Xeraphas wrote...

It says it in her health shields stats on the character screen when I play the game.

so its 1300 shields maxed fitness? (which only a silly man would do)

One thousand one hundred something maxed. And yes, I maxed fitness. 

Although last point in fitness only gives extra 100 or so shields. But I can't undo upgrade after checking it... Should have gone for melee synergy instead.