252 réponses à ce sujet

[cowwy]

Original Stikman wrote...

cowwy wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

I agree. Until you can find a rebuttal to prove that the kit is gamebreaking (she gets played at the expense of other classes, or she is picked over other infilrtrators because of her powers) then you have the place to make a counter argument about why these things are problems. Right now, these things aren't really a problem.

I mean.. with the example you used about tankier kits running into spawns... i have done that so many times with.. vangaurds....

I mean.. asari vangaurd can charge and get her shields back... nuke a spawn with a grenade.... and they are done.... any vangaurd is just as tanky and can move just as fast.

but i digres... you have to prove the status quo is wrong in that its not gamebreaking, then provide a counterclaim

essentially what i am saying is.. you are jumping the gun with the argument. It can be valid, but there are some prior steps that need to hapen first.

Well we can't have a proper debate until you've defined the word "overpowered". My definition is something that has too much power and not enough drawbacks.

The example I used is something that most other kits could not do. Even a lot of vanguards couldn't do it without proper CC abilities.

The problem with the AIU is that she has zero drawbacks. She can only be killed by sync kills, and if you play her properly you won't run into those situations. She has one of the most ridiculous damage buffs and utility powers in the game (TC), an amazing CC ability and debuff in Snap Freeze, and one of the most absurd survivability powers in the game. Tell me, who other than the TGI can claim that?

I'll work with your definition for now.

Drell/asair gaurd and my batarian vangaurd can easily take out spawns within seconds on gold.. as can a slayer.

here are the drawbacks:

1) fast firing (geth, scions, ravagers, etc.) will drop her easy, as they do a full regen vorcha... i have said this a few times in other posts
2) you have to get in close to reap the benefits of snap freeze debuff... which leads to requiring situational awareness.... i have said this.
3) she cannot be melee'd or she dies... the increase in needing to get close makes the liklihood greater.
4) If you go down, RM is slow to get you up and can hinder you if you need to stay down.

four weaknesses i have said there, two of which can be debated, but saying she doesn't need to get close implies mid to long range fighting... which doesn't utilize snap freeze... etc. etc.

The difference is that the vanguards you listed are all reliant on cooldown for their survivability and the skill requirement on those kits if you want to play them aggresively is way higher than the AIU's. And are you sure you're not thinking of the Batarian Adept? The Brawler is a single target killer and has zero CC outside of Biotic Charge.

1) How is this different from any other kit? So you can't stand in the middle of the map and take continuous fire from 3 different targets? Though I would argue that the true rapid fire enemies (e.g. Troopers and Marauders) have a much harder time taking her down than high damage enemies.

2) What is the range on Snap Freeze, 15m? That's hardly close range. And situational awareness is not something exclusive to good players, even many mediocre players have decent situational awareness.

3) I don't understand your logic here. You keep making it sound as if these penalties are exclusive to the AIU, when not only are they present on other classes as well, but they're actually kind of mitigated on the AIU.

4) Again if you go down in a situation such as this it is really your fault, and it's not a problem only with Repair Matrix, medigel has this problem as well.

[UnknownMercenary]

Original Stikman wrote...

cowwy wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

I agree. Until you can find a rebuttal to prove that the kit is gamebreaking (she gets played at the expense of other classes, or she is picked over other infilrtrators because of her powers) then you have the place to make a counter argument about why these things are problems. Right now, these things aren't really a problem.

I mean.. with the example you used about tankier kits running into spawns... i have done that so many times with.. vangaurds....

I mean.. asari vangaurd can charge and get her shields back... nuke a spawn with a grenade.... and they are done.... any vangaurd is just as tanky and can move just as fast.

but i digres... you have to prove the status quo is wrong in that its not gamebreaking, then provide a counterclaim

essentially what i am saying is.. you are jumping the gun with the argument. It can be valid, but there are some prior steps that need to hapen first.

Well we can't have a proper debate until you've defined the word "overpowered". My definition is something that has too much power and not enough drawbacks.

The example I used is something that most other kits could not do. Even a lot of vanguards couldn't do it without proper CC abilities.

The problem with the AIU is that she has zero drawbacks. She can only be killed by sync kills, and if you play her properly you won't run into those situations. She has one of the most ridiculous damage buffs and utility powers in the game (TC), an amazing CC ability and debuff in Snap Freeze, and one of the most absurd survivability powers in the game. Tell me, who other than the TGI can claim that?

I'll work with your definition for now.

Drell/asair gaurd and my batarian vangaurd can easily take out spawns within seconds on gold.. as can a slayer.

here are the drawbacks:

1) fast firing (geth, scions, ravagers, etc.) will drop her easy, as they do a full regen vorcha... i have said this a few times in other posts
2) you have to get in close to reap the benefits of snap freeze debuff... which leads to requiring situational awareness.... i have said this.
3) she cannot be melee'd or she dies... the increase in needing to get close makes the liklihood greater.
4) If you go down, RM is slow to get you up and can hinder you if you need to stay down.

four weaknesses i have said there, two of which can be debated, but saying she doesn't need to get close implies mid to long range fighting... which doesn't utilize snap freeze... etc. etc.

Other classes are no doubt more powerful, but they have a much higher skill ceiling. My main beef is how the current Repair Matrix (and the release version of TGI) bypasses parts of the learning curve in the difficulty jump to gold and platinum. The free revive has its downsides yes, but I do not think something of this magnitude should exist in the first place.

Sexbot/TGI are not the most powerful, but they are the most easy to use and weak players will flock to them. Good players will make the kit amazing, and the best will do well regardless of what kit they choose so it is a non-issue for them.

If I could have my way, I would leave everything about Repair Matrix untouched except the revive.

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

sirjimmus86 wrote...

Is
snap freeze really that useful as crowd control on Gold/Plat, most
enemies have barriers/shields/armour and will continue to fire at you
once you use it.

Also you can't self detonate it like a Paladin can.

I'm tempted to drop it and switch the fitness to melee damage just for s&g

Even if snap freeze is meh for AIU...
When you look at teamwise.. it is much much better choice (even if just to put 3 evolution)

Unless you are tempted to go fully melee.. fitness rank 6 is kinda luxurious waste.

This is what I plan to do. I've seen a full melee Sexbot in action; she can kill an on-host Gold Phantom pretty fast in comparison to a meleeing Shadow.

[Caineghis2500]

I was dodging while auto reviving today. I'll have video soon

[lightswitch]

Original Stikman wrote...

she has one of the poorest fitness trees because you get -15% health/shields than almost every single class if you fully spec into it.... so 1400 might be an exageration (if someone can confirm)

I spent a respec card to double check. I was wrong, maxed fitness on this kit is health 775, shields 1163. That's no where close to 'one of the poorest fitness trees.'

Edit: I just took a look at fitness on my Paladin. He has 625 health, 938 shields (I opted for melee damage in evo 4, not the extra 15%), compare that to an AIU with only foru evos in fitness which has 675 health, 1012 shields. He's also reliant on snap freeze. He has less fitness, but he doesn't get super speed or damage reduction or auto revives.

Modifié par lightswitch, 28 février 2013 - 07:26 .

[RaptorSolutions]

lightswitch wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

she has one of the poorest fitness trees because you get -15% health/shields than almost every single class if you fully spec into it.... so 1400 might be an exageration (if someone can confirm)

I spent a respec card to double check. I was wrong, maxed fitness on this kit is health 775, shields 1163. That's no where close to 'one of the poorest fitness trees.'

... Or you could have just continue reading to know I already specced into max fitness and remember its about 1100 something...

[Happy Shepard]

Not getting into this discussion, but it happened several times where i was killed with her and she didn't even drop on the floor. I just heard the sound of the auto-revive and could walk away.

Also, you can tank a group of mooks very easily by spamming the Repair Matrix, especially with extra grenade gear.

[Woozooliko]

I support this thread and OP's opinion. And to think just a while back all the GI addicts were mocking people putting points into fitness on infiltrators by saying "If you die as an infiltrator then you're doing it wrong".

[MasterPeras]

Here's my humble opinion on her: she's the one single thing from this DLC that's just ok

[weaselshep]

Original Stikman wrote...

This DLC has, so far, been really awesome. There are lots of new weapons to unlock, new kits to figure out, and a lot more anticipation of whats going to become of them!

However, with that, there is always an exception, especially when it comes to the characters.

In this case, we have 1

The Alliance Infiltrator Unit:

She is awesome.

I have always been a fan of Close Quarter Combat. Ask any player I know and they won't be able to remember a time when I picked a sniper over a shotgun. I am glad a shotgun-specific character has come.

For the most part, this kit is easy to figure out. But there seems to be a bit of confusion when it comes to one of the new powers she has: Repair Matrix

Now, not too long ago, there were many threads wondering why Defense matrix wasn't part of the Multiplayer experience. Finally, it seems, Bioware has incorporated a variation and did us one better: FREE REVIVES

Now don't let this get to your head. The repair matrix will regenerate shields (like a vorcha does health), significantly increase your speed, give you damage reduction, and revive you instantly if you get downed. Very similar to a fully stacked Bloodlust Vorcha. Unfortunately, like the regen vorcha...

You are not invincible

If you get downed while repair matrix is on you get up instantly, with a catch: You will slowly get up without the ability to dodge/heavy melee out of the way while simultaneously keeping the aggro of the enemies that killed you in the first place.

So what would happen to say... a player who got a bit too Ballzy?? If they took the ability to increase their DR by 75% upon revive, they might have a chance of running away and living. But as you all well know... How often do you get to just casually get up in the middle of a brute/maruader/prime/bomber/hunter/scion mob and not get staggered to all hell before you get dropped again? Not often.

So what happens if a player goes down, instantly gets revived and then casts another repair matrix? You guessed it... they get down again. How can they escape this? They have to use a medi-gel, which provides them with the time to drop aggro, take advantage of the invincibility frames, and opportunity to potentially roll/heavy melee out of a mob focused on them (Two Primes shooting at you, anyone?)

Because this character has one of the poorest Fitness trees, only the most seasoned players are going to be able to utilize her speed bonuses and weapon damage buffs to the fullest without dropping to the floor from immediate shield + healthgating by cannibal melee and his buddy's shots. Remember, once you get shield/health gated, there IS a cooldown before you get your gates back. So say bye bye if you let a ravager catch you off gaurd.

With how close you have to get to enemies to be effective, this is a very high risk/high reward kit, and needs to be taken very seriously before you decide you want to go all Rambo on a Rippers a**. So please, guys.... if you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Thoughts, BSN?

And finally someone does real analysis.

[Stinja]

Ummm so many threads about EDI-bot....

Agree with first post. Good players won't get surrounded, RM is a great boost to speed etc. Bad players will be hitting the floor often, and would be better off playing Juggernaut, TGI etc

[Abr.Chomsky]

Mostly agree with the OP. Played her and those revives sometimes were inconsistent, E.G. under a turret, only to fall down again.

She needs 2 things nerfed:
1. Heavy melee damage
2. Shields, but not too much, something between a drell and human - 600-700.

C'mon, when Kroguard was released, everyone said it's OP and wouldn't die. And indeed, in experienced player's hands it doesn't die. So what? EDI is mostly ok EXCEPT HER FRIGGIN FAT ASS!

Modifié par Abr.Chomsky, 28 février 2013 - 07:32 .

[Faulcun]

caineghis2500 wrote...

I was dodging while auto reviving today. I'll have video soon

yeah, this. I have had zero issues with dodging on instant-revive, or using another RM and then dodging, even on plat. I dont understand why people are saying it cant be done.

Personally i like the kit, so my comment will just feed those who feel its OP. but i like it anyways. Its fun to just wreck stuff without having to think a bunch.

[Sojiro888]

A few trimes I died while RM was up and didn't get back up.

[Eelectrica]

Fix the damned servers before nerfing anything.
Constant server disconnects = entitled too allegedly 'OP' characters.

[Original Twigman]

lightswitch wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

she has one of the poorest fitness trees because you get -15% health/shields than almost every single class if you fully spec into it.... so 1400 might be an exageration (if someone can confirm)

I spent a respec card to double check. I was wrong, maxed fitness on this kit is health 775, shields 1163. That's no where close to 'one of the poorest fitness trees.'

Edit: I just took a look at fitness on my Paladin. He has 625 health, 938 shields (I opted for melee damage in evo 4, not the extra 15%), compare that to an AIU with only foru evos in fitness which has 675 health, 1012 shields. He's also reliant on snap freeze. He has less fitness, but he doesn't get super speed or damage reduction or auto revives.

fitness trees =/= ftiness base. again.. why someone would fully spec into fitness is beyond me, but it sounds like others have done it.

comparing her to the paladin is a bit silly. He isn't an extraodinary character like many others

[Original Twigman]

cowwy wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

cowwy wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

I agree. Until you can find a rebuttal to prove that the kit is gamebreaking (she gets played at the expense of other classes, or she is picked over other infilrtrators because of her powers) then you have the place to make a counter argument about why these things are problems. Right now, these things aren't really a problem.

I mean.. with the example you used about tankier kits running into spawns... i have done that so many times with.. vangaurds....

I mean.. asari vangaurd can charge and get her shields back... nuke a spawn with a grenade.... and they are done.... any vangaurd is just as tanky and can move just as fast.

but i digres... you have to prove the status quo is wrong in that its not gamebreaking, then provide a counterclaim

essentially what i am saying is.. you are jumping the gun with the argument. It can be valid, but there are some prior steps that need to hapen first.

Well we can't have a proper debate until you've defined the word "overpowered". My definition is something that has too much power and not enough drawbacks.

The example I used is something that most other kits could not do. Even a lot of vanguards couldn't do it without proper CC abilities.

The problem with the AIU is that she has zero drawbacks. She can only be killed by sync kills, and if you play her properly you won't run into those situations. She has one of the most ridiculous damage buffs and utility powers in the game (TC), an amazing CC ability and debuff in Snap Freeze, and one of the most absurd survivability powers in the game. Tell me, who other than the TGI can claim that?

I'll work with your definition for now.

Drell/asair gaurd and my batarian vangaurd can easily take out spawns within seconds on gold.. as can a slayer.

here are the drawbacks:

1) fast firing (geth, scions, ravagers, etc.) will drop her easy, as they do a full regen vorcha... i have said this a few times in other posts
2) you have to get in close to reap the benefits of snap freeze debuff... which leads to requiring situational awareness.... i have said this.
3) she cannot be melee'd or she dies... the increase in needing to get close makes the liklihood greater.
4) If you go down, RM is slow to get you up and can hinder you if you need to stay down.

four weaknesses i have said there, two of which can be debated, but saying she doesn't need to get close implies mid to long range fighting... which doesn't utilize snap freeze... etc. etc.

The difference is that the vanguards you listed are all reliant on cooldown for their survivability and the skill requirement on those kits if you want to play them aggresively is way higher than the AIU's. And are you sure you're not thinking of the Batarian Adept? The Brawler is a single target killer and has zero CC outside of Biotic Charge.

1) How is this different from any other kit? So you can't stand in the middle of the map and take continuous fire from 3 different targets? Though I would argue that the true rapid fire enemies (e.g. Troopers and Marauders) have a much harder time taking her down than high damage enemies.

2) What is the range on Snap Freeze, 15m? That's hardly close range. And situational awareness is not something exclusive to good players, even many mediocre players have decent situational awareness.

3) I don't understand your logic here. You keep making it sound as if these penalties are exclusive to the AIU, when not only are they present on other classes as well, but they're actually kind of mitigated on the AIU.

4) Again if you go down in a situation such as this it is really your fault, and it's not a problem only with Repair Matrix, medigel has this problem as well.

I did mean the batarian brawler... i don't use heavy melee with him i use him as a CC guy.

I won't take the argument further, as until there is definititve proof that the "zero drawbacks" claim is true, the status quo remains untested.

I seriously doubt she will be a first pick for any player; elite or bronze player

Modifié par Original Stikman, 28 février 2013 - 07:53 .

[Original Twigman]

Woozooliko wrote...

I support this thread and OP's opinion. And to think just a while back all the GI addicts were mocking people putting points into fitness on infiltrators by saying "If you die as an infiltrator then you're doing it wrong".

kinda this... everyone dies...

everyone makes mistakes (I can remember Sirian doing a video where he accidentally front rolled into a brute preparing to charge and said "DURRRRRRR").... Sh*t happens. The close you are to enemies the greater that chance goes, period.

[corporal doody]

meh.

i play her similar to how i play the Shadow.....melee all things!!
i dont use a shotty..i use a pistol..so i dont max out on TC. i go 5..duration and melee (5/6/5/4/6)

i like her. i likes her alot. Repair Matrix is cool and all...but it aint nowhere near as super awesome as stimpacks imho

[nothing-to-see-here]

I agree that the character is very awesome. I'm not a great player, I'm not a gold player, I simply don't care for how hectic it gets. But the AIU certainly made the Silver runs I did with her seem much much easier. But it honestly wasn't much to do with the auto revive. She is a very strong up close class and I think her only real defense is the cloaking and speed you can spec into. Several times I have gone down because I got caught without having repair matrix on, didn't feel too OP to me at that point.

I look at her similar to the Paladin, whom shares a few skills similar. Both have snap freeze, both have a method of recharging shields, and both have a way to avoid damage (Omni shield/cloak). The Paladin is one of my favourite go to classes and frankly I feel pretty invincible with him as well. AIU simply has the benefit of cloak to run away (and yes, the instant revive IF you have it on at the time). And yet as great as I think the Paladin is, no one yells to nerf him. And he is a much more versatile team player. But they both play as CQC classes. AIU gets a few benefits that ALL infiltrators have other other. But comparatively the Paladin's shield bash does a fair chunk of damage quickly on its own and there is no reload time to that.

She is a strong character, yes. All of the newly released kits are very strong. It's our last DLC, just have fun with them. I'm tired and feel like I'm rambling.

[Commander Castillo]

What happened to the Monk part or the title?

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

I'll have to agree with you. While insanely good, you still need a bit of know how to play her, just like with other high risk/high reward kits.

Only tried her once and inadvertently completed my second gold solo. I normally like to try new builds and kits on waves 1-3 on a gold solo with no equipment, and couldn't believe how smoothly it went. I did feel dirty afterwards though.

I also think she's behind the GI when it comes to damage output.

[UnknownMercenary]

b00g13man wrote...

I'll have to agree with you. While insanely good, you still need a bit of know how to play her, just like with other high risk/high reward kits.

Only tried her once and inadvertently completed my second gold solo. I normally like to try new builds and kits on waves 1-3 on a gold solo with no equipment, and couldn't believe how smoothly it went. I did feel dirty afterwards though.

I also think she's behind the GI when it comes to damage output.

I don't know how you can experience that and not think the risk-reward equation is more than a bit out of whack

[HolyAvenger]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

I'll have to agree with you. While insanely good, you still need a bit of know how to play her, just like with other high risk/high reward kits.

Only tried her once and inadvertently completed my second gold solo. I normally like to try new builds and kits on waves 1-3 on a gold solo with no equipment, and couldn't believe how smoothly it went. I did feel dirty afterwards though.

I also think she's behind the GI when it comes to damage output.

I don't know how you can experience that and not think the risk-reward equation is more than a bit out of whack

I lol'd.

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

I don't know how you can experience that and not think the risk-reward equation is more than a bit out of whack

It is out of whack, but only if you have some skill in the first place. A noob for instance won't be able to pick her up and automatically be able to solo gold. At least I hope not.

The revive thing is probably taking things a step too far. DR and shield regen would've been more than enough.