252 réponses à ce sujet

[Papa5murf]

I was there to witness the pre-nerf Falcon. I was also there to witness the pre-nerf Krysae. And i have to say, despite how godly those weapons were, neither actually boosted my effective combat ability as much as the AIU and her Repair Matrix.
Doing a random Pug yesterday, trying her out for the first time. Someone else in the lobby also switched to an AIU, and i thought about switching characters (i like a bit of variety in teams so try not to have the same character as anyone else). With hindsight, thank god i didn't change.
Game starts, one player quits on the first wave, leaving me, the other AIU, and a Krogan Warlord. The Krogan ends up getting himself sync killed EVERY single wave, so basically it's me and the other AIU duoing Gold. Now the best i have ever done is extract on Gold with 2 players of equal skill to myself - i'm not good enough to solo or duo Gold. So, i die constantly. So does the other AIU guy. But Repair Matrix keeps us up. And on the odd times where we got downed whilst the Matrix wasn't on, we managed to revive each other.
To cut a long story short, the two of us managed to extract, dragging the Krogan corpse with us  But that wasn't due to our skill, it was solely down to Repair Matrix. If eitehr of us had been using ANY other build, we would never have made it.
Now i'm not saying it's OP, i'm not saying nerf it. What i AM saying is, maybe at the very least the AIU should have been an Ultra Rare card. And maybe, just maybe, i'm actually turning into an elitist douchebag...

Modifié par Papa5murf, 28 février 2013 - 01:00 .

[FlowCytometry]

She's not high-risk, unless you are on a map like Glacier and out of thermals or smth (and even then, SF is great on Glacier). Repair matrix eliminates the high-risk part that should go alongside the high reward (ala TGI w/ stims). Plus, her heavy melee is crazy good considering how damned fast it is.

Even for good players that dun need the revive feature that often, the matrix is a great run speed + shield regen (counteracting TC's shield regen delay) + DR boost. Combine that w/ over-tuned grenade gear, a broken ability like SF and dat melee.. and yeah its bit much. At least things like awakened stance, DM, and HM have considerable penalties.

I don't agree that she's balanced at all atm, sorry. But if you like her, well have fun.

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 28 février 2013 - 01:11 .

[Vlark]

And in addition to all that Lag kills Repair Matrix. Every 3rd time or so the Insta-revive will not happend and though the animation is showing...you keep lying there dead.

[Original Twigman]

Papa5murf wrote...

I was there to witness the pre-nerf Falcon. I was also there to witness the pre-nerf Krysae. And i have to say, despite how godly those weapons were, neither actually boosted my effective combat ability as much as the AIU and her Repair Matrix.
Doing a random Pug yesterday, trying her out for the first time. Someone else in the lobby also switched to an AIU, and i thought about switching characters (i like a bit of variety in teams so try not to have the same character as anyone else). With hindsight, thank god i didn't change.
Game starts, one player quits on the first wave, leaving me, the other AIU, and a Krogan Warlord. The Krogan ends up getting himself sync killed EVERY single wave, so basically it's me and the other AIU duoing Gold. Now the best i have ever done is extract on Gold with 2 players of equal skill to myself - i'm not good enough to solo or duo Gold. So, i die constantly. So does the other AIU guy. But Repair Matrix keeps us up. And on the odd times where we got downed whilst the Matrix wasn't on, we managed to revive each other.
To cut a long story short, the two of us managed to extract, dragging the Krogan corpse with us  But that wasn't due to our skill, it was solely down to Repair Matrix. If eitehr of us had been using ANY other build, we would never have made it.
Now i'm not saying it's OP, i'm not saying nerf it. What i AM saying is, maybe at the very least the AIU should have been an Ultra Rare card. And maybe, just maybe, i'm actually turning into an elitist douchebag...

bottom line; the only benefit repair matrix is going to give to an inexperienced player is free revives and not having to waste medi-gel.

It doesn't matter if you can solo a difficulty. If you are fairly competent, you can easily use the revives to your advantage as you kite enemies and spread them out. A poor player wont be able to do that.

Repair matrix does not compensate for situational awareness anymore than bloodlust vorcha, full charge/shields/reegar krogan.

Repair Matrix =/= compensate for skill

[UnknownMercenary]

b00g13man wrote...

UnknownMercenary wrote...

I don't know how you can experience that and not think the risk-reward equation is more than a bit out of whack

It is out of whack, but only if you have some skill in the first place. A noob for instance won't be able to pick her up and automatically be able to solo gold. At least I hope not.

The revive thing is probably taking things a step too far. DR and shield regen would've been more than enough.

The revive is really the only thing that bugs me now. It's far too late to change the fact that infiltrators will be the top in terms of damage, and I still like them fine but play them waaaaaaay less.

The reasoning behind the DR and shield regen is easy to see as well since they designed her as a shotgun infiltrator who will be in CQC often, and also gave her very powerful melee and a crowd control power that works best up close. I just don't see the reasoning behind the free revive ability.

[Original Twigman]

Commander Castillo wrote...

What happened to the Monk part or the title?

I realized that my opinion was so extremely humble that even monks couldn't be as humble as my opinion, so they had to go.

[Original Twigman]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

UnknownMercenary wrote...

I don't know how you can experience that and not think the risk-reward equation is more than a bit out of whack

It is out of whack, but only if you have some skill in the first place. A noob for instance won't be able to pick her up and automatically be able to solo gold. At least I hope not.

The revive thing is probably taking things a step too far. DR and shield regen would've been more than enough.

The revive is really the only thing that bugs me now. It's far too late to change the fact that infiltrators will be the top in terms of damage, and I still like them fine but play them waaaaaaay less.

The reasoning behind the DR and shield regen is easy to see as well since they designed her as a shotgun infiltrator who will be in CQC often, and also gave her very powerful melee and a crowd control power that works best up close. I just don't see the reasoning behind the free revive ability.

personally, i can do withtout the free revive. Its pretty negligble for any great player.

For me, its just a nice bonus to save my medi-gel.

[Commander Castillo]

I haven't seen an AIU in any of my lobbies so far today, mostly just warlords and juggernauts

[Original Twigman]

All in all, the bot doesn't need a nerf. It is not game breaking, nor will it allow poor players to elevate at any higher rate than...say... the juggernaught....

[Original Twigman]

updated with a new section at the bottom of the OP for ridiculous claims made against the AIU... please feel free to add some you find.

Modifié par Original Stikman, 28 février 2013 - 08:10 .

[cowwy]

I think you're trying to say that that argument at the bottom is stupid without having a rational discussion about it. The statement has some merit in that while the shield total is lower, the vastly superior mobility and ability to take hard cover makes it a valid claim. Debatable certainly, and I wouldn't say that she is tankier than the Juggernaut but it's certainly not a "ridiculous claim".

[Original Twigman]

cowwy wrote...

I think you're trying to say that that argument at the bottom is stupid without having a rational discussion about it. The statement has some merit in that while the shield total is lower, the vastly superior mobility and ability to take hard cover makes it a valid claim. Debatable certainly, and I wouldn't say that she is tankier than the Juggernaut but it's certainly not a "ridiculous claim".

no... more hyperbole than stupid

[Haersvaelg]

No matter how you look at it, virtually infinite medi-gel does take a good chunk out of the high risk part of high-risk high-reward.

Also, I would say that the Cobra-from-ammo argument is mostly made to show that the position that since the game is co-op, there is no need for balance at all, is not really valid. i.e., that the disagreement is where the border for ridiculous OP lies which of course is different for different people.

[Original Twigman]

Haersvaelg wrote...

No matter how you look at it, virtually infinite medi-gel does take a good chunk out of the high risk part of high-risk high-reward.

Also, I would say that the Cobra-from-ammo argument is mostly made to show that the position that since the game is co-op, there is no need for balance at all, is not really valid. i.e., that the disagreement is where the border for ridiculous OP lies which of course is different for different people.

oh i understand the context... its just such an exaggeration/slipper slope argument that i had to put it in there.

[lightswitch]

Original Stikman wrote...

fitness trees =/= ftiness base. again.. why someone would fully spec into fitness is beyond me, but it sounds like others have done it.

comparing her to the paladin is a bit silly. He isn't an extraodinary character like many others

Wait wait wait. C'mon, Stikman, at least be consistent. First you're saying the character is too flimsy and therefore needs Repair Matrix. Then it turns out she's not squishy at all unless you spec out of fitness (in which case: well obviously), but you claim it's stupid to spec into fitness even though you say she's squishy without it. That makes no sense. If she has such poor base fitness as you claim, then it makes perfect sense to spec for fitness.

I compared her to the Paladin for one very simple reason. You claimed that the AIU needs Repair Matrix because she has to work at close range; snap freeze and shotguns are dependent on it. Well, the Paladin also has to work at close range because he's using snap freeze, he has less fitness than the AIU, but he doesn't a get a ridiculously OP auto-reviving, shield regenerating, no-cooldown, damage reducing, speed increasing power. But he's just fine anyways.

[Original Twigman]

lightswitch wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

fitness trees =/= ftiness base. again.. why someone would fully spec into fitness is beyond me, but it sounds like others have done it.

comparing her to the paladin is a bit silly. He isn't an extraodinary character like many others

Wait wait wait. C'mon, Stikman, at least be consistent. First you're saying the character is too flimsy and therefore needs Repair Matrix. Then it turns out she's not squishy at all unless you spec out of fitness (in which case: well obviously), but you claim it's stupid to spec into fitness even though you say she's squishy without it. That makes no sense. If she has such poor base fitness as you claim, then it makes perfect sense to spec for fitness.

Off topic, but demanding consistency is silly, especially if someone decides to change their position (like if I thought Repair Matrix needed to be nerfed and people flipped because of it... its archaic and primitive)....

anyway, to answer you... if you are looking to get the most out of the debuff/damage then you will spec out of fitness... I shouldn't have to argue that.

Her fitness base isn't great, its mediocre, definitely not one of the highest. Again, i said her fitness trees/evolution were one of the worst in the game... which they are.... If someone want so to build a kit that is almost impervious to damage by putting duration, max survivability on repair matrix, and full fitness... they can... more power to them... but its going to a pretty crap infiltrator with poor damage output.

I compared her to the Paladin for one very simple reason. You claimed that the AIU needs Repair Matrix because she has to work at close range; snap freeze and shotguns are dependent on it. Well, the Paladin also has to work at close range because he's using snap freeze, he has less fitness than the AIU, but he doesn't a get a ridiculously OP auto-reviving, shield regenerating, no-cooldown, damage reducing, speed increasing power. But he's just fine anyways.

Yeah... AIU doesn't compare to the paladin at all... he is much more diverse.
In fact, i can recall playing with Ashen Earth using the Saber on him...

Paladin overall isn't a great character... I can easily compare the Valkyrie to the Asari Adept as they share warp... buts its a silly analogy

Modifié par Original Stikman, 28 février 2013 - 09:05 .

[Randomical]

Let's compare AIU and TGI:
1. Weapon damage: pretty similar.
2. Snap Freeze vs Overload: IMO Overload is better. Stripping phantom's barriers in one cast > debuffs of Snap Freeze + limited range.
3. Mobility: AIU wins here.
4. Survivability: when in trouble, both kits rely on a 'nade power. My point is that in dangerous situation Repair Matrix isn't better than Stim Pack.
Using a stimmy will save TGI from most dangers and give him time to retreat.
Dying and self-reviving as AIU will prevent you from retreating for some time and get you down again pretty often if not careful. Though 75% of DR does help after self-revive, it won't save from stun and sync-kills, and enemies will usually get closer while AIU self-revives.

The only thing not that balanced about Repair Matrix comparing to Stim Pack is its duration, IMHO. Now its pretty much a passive unless the player dies every five seconds.

In the end, AIU and TGI are very close in terms of risk/reward ratio.

Personally I'd take TGI over AIU any time and leave shotguns to Drell Assassins, who has better debuff and is overally better for those who doesn't need free revives to stay alive.

[Original Twigman]

Randomical wrote...

Let's compare AIU and TGI:
1. Weapon damage: pretty similar.
2. Snap Freeze vs Overload: IMO Overload is better. Stripping phantom's barriers in one cast > debuffs of Snap Freeze + limited range.
3. Mobility: AIU wins here.
4. Survivability: when in trouble, both kits rely on a 'nade power. My point is that in dangerous situation Repair Matrix isn't better than Stim Pack.
Using a stimmy will save TGI from most dangers and give him time to retreat.
Dying and self-reviving as AIU will prevent you from retreating for some time and get you down again pretty often if not careful. Though 75% of DR does help after self-revive, it won't save from stun and sync-kills, and enemies will usually get closer while AIU self-revives.

The only thing not that balanced about Repair Matrix comparing to Stim Pack is its duration, IMHO. Now its pretty much a passive unless the player dies every five seconds.

In the end, AIU and TGI are very close in terms of risk/reward ratio.

Personally I'd take TGI over AIU any time and leave shotguns to Drell Assassins, who has better debuff and is overally better for those who doesn't need free revives to stay alive.

pretty solid comparison. Also to factor in, if you take the 75% DR from revive, you are less mobile as you sacrificed the movement speed.

Drell Assassin is probably better overall (better weapon damage passives and is able to use any gun without it gimping him as much... even gets a bonus with snipers so he can play at range).

I'd take the AIU over the TGI, personally, but thats because i don't like playing with him.

For real though, the whole self-revive thing is pretty negligble... its nice, but I really don't need it. If a player needs it, then they are going down often enough that they it doesn't even matter cuz its not like they are killing things

Modifié par Original Stikman, 28 février 2013 - 09:34 .

[TuringPoint]

One (fair?) way they could nerf Matrix is to shorten the duration by about 10 seconds. Another possibility is that they could extend the duration indefinitely, and give it a penalty like the geth or devastator modes - a reduction in overall shields and health in exchange for shield regen and damage reduction.  It would still be expended when she went down.  I wouldn't mind if it were adjusted to be something like the geth hunter mode.   

I've seen lots of people trying to use the AIU going down a whole lot, without the matrix activated. I've seen TGI's use stims to do atrociously stupid, very much 'blunt force' things and get away with it, even with the nerf on stims.

Unless, perhaps, you spec heavily into fitness health and shields, you have to keep moving to survive, even with matrix activated.

I think part of the issue is that, especially for less hardcore players who don't already have all rares and URs, medi-gel is an expensive and rare commodity - more so than ops packs.

But this isn't in itself unbalancing to the game's mechanics. It might be 'cheap' or 'unfair' to people who don't have or use her, as far as medi-gel goes though; but it requires skill to make good use of her matrix ability, even as-is.  

I wouldn't mind seeing fewer AIU's either.  Rare is the game without one, it seems, cramping my own AIU's style.  

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 février 2013 - 09:58 .

[Original Twigman]

Alocormin wrote...

One way they could nerf Matrix is to shorten the duration by about 10 seconds. Another possibility is that they could extend the duration indefinitely, and give it a penalty like the geth or devastator modes - a reduction in overall shields and health in exchange for shield regen and damage reduction.  It would still be expended when she went down.  

I've seen lots of people trying to use the AIU going down a whole lot, without the matrix activated. I've seen TGI's use stims to do atrociously stupid, very much 'blunt force' things and get away with it, even with the nerf on stims.

Unless, perhaps, you spec heavily into fitness health and shields, you have to keep moving to survive, even with matrix activated.

I think part of the issue is that, especially for less hardcore players who don't already have all rares and URs, medi-gel is an expensive and rare commodity - more so than ops packs.

But this isn't in itself unbalancing to the game's mechanics. It might be 'cheap' or 'unfair' to people who don't have or use her, as far as medi-gel goes though; but it requires skill to make good use of the ability.  

I think your viewpoint is fair and balanced.

The "cut duration" initially made sense to me... so i want to hear your viewpoint on this...

If they cut the duration, would you not just compensate by going to grenade capacity? right now, i use shock trooper (total of 4 grenades) and do just fine... I can easily just compensate with Grenade capacity with a -12% damage bonus but with just as much time, for the most part... seems like a redundant nerf when i think abou it.

Thoughts?

[VII Revenant]

Randomical gets it. Reducing the duration is the sensible approach.

[TuringPoint]

I would still probably prefer the geth vision gear. I do use shock trooper gear sometimes, but the geth vision is invaluable for situational awareness, which is important for a character like her that relies on mobility.

But some people might go for more grenade capacity. This would be a fair tradeoff, I believe, since if you take the grenade capacity gear you can't use something else.

People would still crutch with this ability, in other words. It wouldn't make them a better player though.  It would also make the ability less useful for people who use the ability thoughtfully; but it would require more skill to use to good effect.

I personally don't think the duration should be nerfed 'too' much; if it is they should increase the movement speed bonus at the very least to retain its viability as a backup for getting out of sticky, close range situations.

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 février 2013 - 10:16 .

[Original Twigman]

Alocormin wrote...

I would still probably prefer the geth vision gear. I do use shock trooper gear sometimes, but the geth vision is invaluable for situational awareness, which is important for a character like her that relies on mobility.

But some people might go for more grenade capacity. This would be a fair tradeoff, I believe, since if you take the grenade capacity gear you can't use something else.

People would still crutch with this ability, in other words. It wouldn't make them a better player though.  It would also make the ability less useful for people who use the ability thoughtfully; but it would require more skill to use to good effect.

I personally don't think the duration should be nerfed 'too' much; if it is they should increase the movement speed bonus at the very least to retain its viability as a backup for getting out of sticky, close range situations.

hmmm... i want to try her with a geth scanner and just two grenades

you have good points. a grenade capacity with make the nerf redundant for me, but perhaps not for the average player.

Honestly, I think only time will tell if this kit is as OP as people claim. Bioware should definitely not nerf this kit if they think it "might" cause most players to choose her over every other class, much like people should not ask for a nerf until this happens as well... why prevent something if we don't know it will be a problem? for all we know the juggernaught might be the go to kit for the weaker players

[TuringPoint]

I wonder what it would be like to play her without matrix altogether. Could take fitness to make up for it. Fitness might even be preferable, since you have that boost all the time, not just when you use a grenade.

[Original Twigman]

Alocormin wrote...

I wonder what it would be like to play her without matrix altogether. Could take fitness to make up for it. Fitness might even be preferable, since you have that boost all the time, not just when you use a grenade.

wut boost?

I don't think i would go without matrix... i like my speed bonuses way too much.