176 réponses à ce sujet

[Uncle Jo]

David7204 wrote...

The comments about 'content rehash' would be easier for me to respect if pretty much every story-content idea I saw on the BSN wasn't some guilty of the same thing. Including ideas about Miranda. For example, Miranda taking over Cerberus. Gee, where have we seen something like that before? Or Miranda being the upteenth person to pout about how evil Cerberus is. And of course, when players suggest it, why, it's just the best idea ever.

I think Jack becoming a teacher was brilliant. It would be awful nice to see a few more ideas like that.

It was one of the biggest wtf moments in ME3. A sociopathic cold-blooded killer becoming, within 6 months, a teacher in an Alliance academy. And I really do like her.

As for Miranda, all was already said. Daddy/Oriana round 2.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 28 février 2013 - 01:51 .

[MECavScout01]

David7204 wrote...

Is that right? Miranda taking over Cerberus isn't rehashed content? That doesn't sound like anything encountered in the series before?

Glad to see that you're, as usual, pulling **** out of your ass. Where was this ever mentioned?

It never was. That's exactly correct.

Modifié par MECavScout01, 28 février 2013 - 01:54 .

[David7204]

Shepard's heroism to his or her friends is supposed to mean something. It means nothing if they forget all about it afterwards. That's one of the most outstanding things about Mass Effect - that everyone - cop or criminal, rough or compassionate, experienced or veteran - becomes a better person because of Shepard.

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

Is that right? Miranda taking over Cerberus isn't rehashed content? That doesn't sound like anything encountered in the series before?

Considering that that never happened (nor does anything like that happen at all), I'm going to go with "no".

[WarGriffin]

David7204 wrote...

Shepard's heroism to his or her friends is supposed to mean something. It means nothing if they forget all about it afterwards. That's one of the most outstanding things about Mass Effect - that everyone - cop or criminal, rough or compassionate, experienced or veteran - becomes a better person because of Shepard.

If Shepard's a paragon... If shepard's a Renegade some of them turn into Amoral Sobs

[David7204]

MECavScout01 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Is that right? Miranda taking over Cerberus isn't rehashed content? That doesn't sound like anything encountered in the series before?

Glad to see that you're, as usual, pulling **** out of your ass. Where was this ever mentioned?

It never was. That's exactly correct.

On the contrary. It's been mentioned likely dozens and dozens of times. Why don't you take some time to search through any thread about Miranda? You'll likely find at least a few posters mentioning how awesome it would be if Miranda took over Cerberus.

[MECavScout01]

David7204 wrote...

Shepard's heroism to his or her friends is supposed to mean something. It means nothing if they forget all about it afterwards. That's one of the most outstanding things about Mass Effect - that everyone - cop or criminal, rough or compassionate, experienced or veteran - becomes a better person because of Shepard.

And that's not always the case either. It's fine if you want to RP that way, but I don't do that with everyone.

Some of us just wanted to kill Jack because she's a damn menace. I'm not one of those people, but people play the game differently. Something you have yet to grasp.

My Shepard isn't a hero. He's an enforcer. 

Modifié par MECavScout01, 28 février 2013 - 01:58 .

[crimzontearz]

David7204 wrote...

Shepard's heroism to his or her friends is supposed to mean something. It means nothing if they forget all about it afterwards. That's one of the most outstanding things about Mass Effect - that everyone - cop or criminal, rough or compassionate, experienced or veteran - becomes a better person because of Shepard.

well.....to a point

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

On the contrary. It's been mentioned likely dozens and dozens of times. Why don't you take some time to search through any thread about Miranda? You'll likely find at least a few posters mentioning how awesome it would be if Miranda took over Cerberus.

... If it were mentioned on the BSN, how would it be "rehashed" if it occurred in-game (for the first time)? In order to be "rehashed", it kind of needs to have already happened.

Are you challenged?

[MECavScout01]

David7204 wrote...

MECavScout01 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Is that right? Miranda taking over Cerberus isn't rehashed content? That doesn't sound like anything encountered in the series before?

Glad to see that you're, as usual, pulling **** out of your ass. Where was this ever mentioned?

It never was. That's exactly correct.

On the contrary. It's been mentioned likely dozens and dozens of times. Why don't you take some time to search through any thread about Miranda? You'll likely find at least a few posters mentioning how awesome it would be if Miranda took over Cerberus.

On the contrary to you. Tell me an official source in the game or otherwise that has Miranda becoming the leader of Cerberus. That's what you implied. That is incorrect.

[StayFrosty05]

fainmaca wrote...

Both got screwed over in the matter of sheer amount of conent. As for what little they got, I'd have a hard time saying which one was worse off.

I feel like Jack's content (even non-romance) was too much of an attempt to 'fix' a character that didn't need fixing, then upping the physicality and the sexualisation to levels that fans who had followed the character from ME2 didn't value. The fact that her fanbase had increased dramatically becuase she now has hair and looks a lot more conventionally attractive shores up my belief that she got increased common appeal over material that was true to her character.

On the other hand, Miranda's stuff was a lot more in keeping with who she was, but it essentially just retreads ground covered in ME2. For a character who could only die in ME2 with careful planning, she should have had a better, more story critical plot than that.

In the end, I'd say that Jack is worse off, post ME3. There may be bias there because I'm a Jackolyte, but I feel that as a fan of the character she wasn't dealt with with the due care and attention her complexity needed.

I disagree....Jack's popularity grew because of her attitude....I understood why she was the way she was in ME2, but had trouble liking her....come ME3 and I love the attitude change....As a female myself (and older) her "beautification" as zero effect on me, I'm interested in the person, not what they look like...Though my Shep remains eternally single, and have no interest in hooking him up....I do much prefer the more with it Jack in ME3, I think she is awesome in ME3 in fact....

[grey_wind]

Uncle Jo wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The comments about 'content rehash' would be easier for me to respect if pretty much every story-content idea I saw on the BSN wasn't some guilty of the same thing. Including ideas about Miranda. For example, Miranda taking over Cerberus. Gee, where have we seen something like that before? Or Miranda being the upteenth person to pout about how evil Cerberus is. And of course, when players suggest it, why, it's just the best idea ever.

I think Jack becoming a teacher was brilliant. It would be awful nice to see a few more ideas like that.

It was one of the biggest wtf moments in ME3. A sociopathic cold-blooded killer becoming, within 6 months, a teacher in an Alliance academy. And I really do like her.

I agree. It was absurd. Personally, I think that if they showed Jack's arc towards trying to become a better person, it could have been incredibly powerful and emotional if done right, with her becoming a teacher the endpoint of her growth as a person, once the Reapers were defeated.

[Han Shot First]

Tough choice actually.

At first I was tempted to say that Jack got worse treatment than Miranda, until I read GT's post. He makes a good point. Miranda certainly had more screen time and dialogue than Jack, and some semblance of a romance arc, but Jack's content was better.

Jack's character evolves a bit and we see her become more responsible compared to ME2, and she is actively engaged in fighting the Reapers in her own way. In contrast Miranda spends the Reaper War trying to track down her sister. While that ultimately links back to the Illusive Man, it felt like a distraction for most of the game. It also basically was a continuation of Miranda's loyalty mission from ME2. Compared to Jack's character development it felt like Miranda was just treading over the same ground covered in ME2.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 28 février 2013 - 02:01 .

[David7204]

If you read my earlier post, I was clearly talking about fan suggestions, not actual game content. And the discrepancy between how fans react to their own suggestions and how fans react to in-game content.

Miranda taking over Cerberus would be a re-hash of Lair of the Shadow Broker. I thought that was fairly obvious.

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

Shepard's heroism to his or her friends is supposed to mean something. It means nothing if they forget all about it afterwards. That's one of the most outstanding things about Mass Effect - that everyone - cop or criminal, rough or compassionate, experienced or veteran - becomes a better person because of Shepard.

Christ, not this again...

No two Shepards are the same, unless you mindlessly plunk the top or bottom of the wheel every single time with no regard for what it actually makes Shepard do. I could care less about conforming to an archetype. Shepard has a job to do, and each of my Shepards applies different methods and morality to do it.

[David7204]

Well that's too damn bad for you, isnt it? Because the fact is, archetypes exist, and they're powerful, meaningful storytelling tools.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

Why are people so concerned about romances?

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

WarGriffin wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Shepard's heroism to his or her friends is supposed to mean something. It means nothing if they forget all about it afterwards. That's one of the most outstanding things about Mass Effect - that everyone - cop or criminal, rough or compassionate, experienced or veteran - becomes a better person because of Shepard.

If Shepard's a paragon... If shepard's a Renegade some of them turn into Amoral Sobs

or they turn into...dust

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

If you read my earlier post, I was clearly talking about fan suggestions, not actual game content. And the discrepancy between how fans react to their own suggestions and how fans react to in-game content.

Miranda taking over Cerberus would be a re-hash of Lair of the Shadow Broker. I thought that was fairly obvious.

Your earlier posts most certainly did not send that message.

And how is LotSB at all similar to a proposed scenario with Miranda? Liara never made a career out of working with the Shadow Broker, nor was she a loyalist. 

If "overthrowing the tyrant" in a general sense equals "rehashed" content, then so is the Control ending.

[jtav]

Miranda's romance content per se is good. It's her character content I have a problem with. The woman should care that her former bosses are putting on the Reich and care about the Reapers. She's degenerated morally.

Jack, I like, though I can't speak to romance content.

[o Ventus]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

Why are people so concerned about romances?

Because they offer an extra level of immersion? Because it furthers character development? Because it adds another level of humanization to Shepard in a way that the player chooses?

[d-boy15]

For Miranda romance, I've been say this for many times, Miranda should be you friend
at enemy side. It will add something to story, while she still loyal to Cerberus, she will
always had a hard time to point a gun to her friends who fight and bled together before
hell... it will be even more interesting for Shepard who romance her. In the end it will be
her to make a decision to take over Cerberus or burn it to the ground depend on player
action in the game.

Put her along side Kai Leng and we might get a better rival to fight than we already had...

But no, we got the my sister 2.0 instead... which add almost nothing to the story.

Modifié par d-boy15, 28 février 2013 - 02:15 .

[fainmaca]

StayFrosty05 wrote...
I disagree....Jack's popularity grew because of her attitude....I understood why she was the way she was in ME2, but had trouble liking her....come ME3 and I love the attitude change....As a female myself (and older) her "beautification" as zero effect on me, I'm interested in the person, not what they look like...Though my Shep remains eternally single, and have no interest in hooking him up....I do much prefer the more with it Jack in ME3, I think she is awesome in ME3 in fact....

Well then you are one of the few. Wherever I see a convert to Jack support, I almost always see 'I like her now she has hair', or something along the lines of 'she looks more normal now'.

But the 'attitude' served a very clear purpose for her character, and without it I strongly contend that she is a lesser, weaker character. Easier to get on with, yes, but that isn't necessarily an improvement on her concept.

ME2 Jack was a hell of a unique character to experience, a character whose choice to make herself outwardly unappealing had effects beyond just in the game universe. Just like how characters in-game judged her based on first impressions and shied away, so to do real people. But those who persevered get rewarded by the multiple layers of complexity. That's all gone in ME3. Now she's just another bland, productive member of society. There are no layers anymore, just a single, more generally likeable flavour.

[David7204]

Someone is harboring resentment towards society.

Modifié par David7204, 28 février 2013 - 02:20 .

[fainmaca]

David7204 wrote...

Someone is harboring resentment towards society.

Productive members of society are just fine, but it was a weak move to take a complex, multi-faceted character and strip it down to become one. We have billions of normal people. Jack was enjoyable because she was a troubled, atypical person.

There's a reason why our squad is made up of badass mercenaries, assassins, living machines and brilliant scientists rather than milkmen, accountants and, yes, teachers.