176 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

I'm curious what you think about your friends and more importantly, yourself, if you consider Jack in ME 3 to be 'typical' with a nice fat implication of 'dull' thrown in.

[Mr.House]

Jack had the best out of the two. Sure Miranda might have had more but it was so bad it's not funny, I don't even like Jacks romance and I still found the ME3 content better then that joke called ME3 Miranda romance content.

[jtav]

I never found ME2 Jack complex or engaging in the slightest (heterosexual female here). She was yet another character who acted tough but was revealed as just a scared and wounded little girl who needed the hero. I'm sick of ME2 Jacks. Her ME3 incarnation was much better.

[fainmaca]

To continue that line of reasoning, look at the characters on your squad that are the least liked- Kaidan, Jacob and Vega, corresponding to each game. They are the closest you have to society's baseline 'normal' in the mix of crazy badasses you get in the games. 'Normal' female characters like Ash do better because strong female characters are still under-represented in entertainment media, but these three men perform the worst among the fanbase in large part because they are so close to normal. Zaeed does better than them because of his rogue outlook, and aliens, machines and so on are outsidfe of our day to day life, so the inspire more interest.

[TheRealJayDee]

Well, my first Jack romancing character would never have turned himself over to the Alliance, and I'd say it's unlikely that "his" Jack would've become a teacher in that story. Since I never played him in ME3 (and probably never will) because it just wouldn't be him that doesn't matter. The other Jack romancer I also have not played, because I didn't see the point of another playthrough. Based on what I youtubed about her romance arc I'd say it should have been more, but it was alright and would have fitted the other Shepard's story.

All in all Jack has become my favourite LI, given the horrible things that happened to Ash.

Never actually had a Shepard romance Miranda in ME2, so I can't really judge...

[Nightwriter]

Jack had it worst.

[samgurl775]

They were both screwed. Jack's content was pretty much nonexistent, and Miranda was absurdly underused. I'm leaning towards Jack getting worse treatment though.

[Konfined]

David7204 wrote...

I'm curious what you think about your friends and more importantly, yourself, if you consider Jack in ME 3 to be 'typical' with a nice fat implication of 'dull' thrown in.

He said "atypical."  Means the exact opposite of typical.  

No, don't mind me; just thought you might appreciate this new data, before you go full on ad hominem, and make a full, complete, total ass of yourself. 

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 02:44 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Sex with Jack should be absolutely crazy. But it turns out to be some PG-13 crap in ME2 and ME3.

[fainmaca]

David7204 wrote...

I'm curious what you think about your friends and more importantly, yourself, if you consider Jack in ME 3 to be 'typical' with a nice fat implication of 'dull' thrown in.

 
No, you're not curious. You just want to make a point on the internet.

Anyway, my point was that I think ME3 Jack is less interesting than ME2 Jack because she was toned down and made more 'normal'. Not that she was an entirely dull character.

[David7204]

Konfined wrote...

He said "atypical."  Means the exact opposite of typical.  Just thought you might appreciate this new data, before you go full on ad hominem. 

No, he said 'atypical' in reference to Jack in ME 2.

fainmaca wrote...
Jack was enjoyable because she was a troubled, atypical person.

There's an implication there that Jack was (and is no longer) enjoyable because she was (and is no longer) atypical. No longer atypical. In other words, typical.

Nor is it ad hominem.

Modifié par David7204, 28 février 2013 - 02:47 .

[kalasaurus]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sex with Jack should be absolutely crazy. But it turns out to be some PG-13 crap in ME2 and ME3.

Doesn't Mordin tell Shepard to pad the walls before sleeping with Jack?

[MegaSovereign]

Miranda romance had quantity but lacked meaningful development. On the other hand, Jack's romance was short on content but Jack's development as a character was nice.

Hopefully the Citadel DLC makes the two romances feel more grounded into the story.

[Konfined]

David7204 wrote...

Konfined wrote...

He said "atypical."  Means the exact opposite of typical.  Just thought you might appreciate this new data, before you go full on ad hominem. 

No, he said 'atypical' in reference to Jack in ME 2.

fainmaca wrote...
Jack was enjoyable because she was a troubled, atypical person.

There's an implication there that Jack was (and is no longer) enjoyable because she was (and is no longer) atypical. No longer atypical. In other words, typical.

Nor is it ad hominem.

Well... she is typical.  A typical defrosted ice queen social outcast turned productive member of society.  The fact that the Alliance background checks missed the part about the space station she crashed is probably the most unique aspect of her character in ME3.  She has been stripped of what made her unique in order to appeal to a wider audience.  She is now very cliched, very typical.  So there.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 03:04 .

[o Ventus]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Never actually had a Shepard romance Miranda in ME2, so I can't really judge...

I highly recommend you try it at least once.

In ME2, I mean. Of the characters introduced in that game, I think Miranda has one of the strongest development arcs, and the romance only serves to enhance that.

[David7204]

You know, I've always disliked the idea that flaws are what make people interesting, and well written characters need to have flaws. It tends to lead to all sorts of accusations of Mary Sues, and then we get people arguing about 'real' flaws and all that. The end result tends to be people listing out the flaws and strengths of characters, insisting that if the two lists have the same number of entries then the character is well-written. Most of the 'flaws' are usually bogus, anyway. For example, people will list a character getting angry in a situation where anger is completely natural and justified as a flaw. I hear the word 'stubborn' come up a lot.

Modifié par David7204, 28 février 2013 - 03:12 .

[Uncle Jo]

grey_wind wrote...

I agree. It was absurd. Personally, I think that if they showed Jack's arc towards trying to become a better person, it could have been incredibly powerful and emotional if done right, with her becoming a teacher the endpoint of her growth as a person, once the Reapers were defeated.

I absolutely agree. She was badly traumatized in her childness. She spent her whole life never giving a damn about anything or anyone but herself, stealing, hijacking, terrorizing and blowing people and things up. Dangerous lunatic is a compliment for her. And she said it herself in ME2, after the suicide mission she'll go away.

Even if Shep chose the parangon path and/or romanced her, there is no way she'd change that deep and that quick. Her past is too heavy, her wounds too deep. It'd take years, decades to heal, if even possible. Who's Shep? Jesus? Wait, he came back from the deads...

Spec ops, solo high-risk missions (remember she has a big issue with authority), yes. Teaching young students in a military academy? No way in hell.

[David7204]

Uncle Jo wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I agree. It was absurd. Personally, I think that if they showed Jack's arc towards trying to become a better person, it could have been incredibly powerful and emotional if done right, with her becoming a teacher the endpoint of her growth as a person, once the Reapers were defeated.

I absolutely agree. She was badly traumatized in her childness. She spent her whole life never giving a damn about anything or anyone but herself, stealing, hijacking, terrorizing and blowing people and things up. Dangerous lunatic is a compliment for her. And she said it herself in ME2, after the suicide mission she'll go away.

Even if Shep chose the parangon path and/or romanced her, there is no way she'd change that deep and that quick. Her past is too heavy, her wounds too deep. It'd take years, decades to heal, if even possible. Who's Shep? Jesus? Wait, he came back from the deads...

Spec ops, solo high-risk missions (remember she has a big issue with authority), yes. Teaching young students in a military academy? No way in hell.

That is simply not true at all. Some of stories in ME 2 make it clear she cared very deeply about people. And the idea that just because someone is a criminal, even a violent one, means they can't have deep and meaningful relationships is silly.

Not only that, this looks like a bit of a sloppy diagnosis. I don't think she respects authority a whole lot, but I never saw any indication of any kind of 'issue' with it beyond the issues inherent with being a criminal.

Modifié par David7204, 28 février 2013 - 03:14 .

[fainmaca]

o Ventus wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Never actually had a Shepard romance Miranda in ME2, so I can't really judge...

I highly recommend you try it at least once.

In ME2, I mean. Of the characters introduced in that game, I think Miranda has one of the strongest development arcs, and the romance only serves to enhance that.

Never romanced Miri, but I have to agree that she has a very strong character arc, even without the romance content. I gained huge appreciation for the character after eventually taking her to face the Human Reaper, then seeing her tell TIM to shove it. After that, I really paid attention to her dialogue and my respect for her as presented in ME2 grew immensely.

[fainmaca]

David7204 wrote...

You know, I've always disliked the idea that flaws are what make people interesting, and well written characters need to have flaws. It tends to lead to all sorts of accusations of Mary Sues, and then we get people arguing about 'real' flaws and all that. The end result tends to be people listing out the flaws and strengths of characters, insisting that if the two lists have the same number of entries then the character is well-written. Most of the 'flaws' are usually bogus, anyway. For example, people will list a character getting angry in a situation where anger is completely natural and acceptable as a flaw. I hear the word 'stubborn' come up a lot.

I never said anything about needing flaws to be a good character. I said that they need to be atypical to be an interesting character. Sometimes that does come from their flaws.

I'm normal (ish). People don't want to read a novelisation of my life, and I know I wouldn't make for a compelling protagonist if I was used as the hero in a work of fiction. Same principle applies here.

[Nightdragon8]

WarGriffin wrote...

I still can't wrap my head around how Miranda wasn't a perm Squadmate in ME3 since Cerberus is for the most part the person you fight the most.

She is harder to kill then even Garrus and Tali so you can't use the SHE COULD BE DEAD! and Hell She was one of the more popular ME2 characters.


then again ME3 is written very clearly with a specific outcome in mind, and a Specific Shepard -A Paragon, Allaince Supportive Shepard- and will Say to hell with the various outcomes X happened.


Hence Why Jack reforms into a teacher even if you whip her bloodlust,

the funny part is that, While with Miranda's arc could have been "try to find sister take down Cerberus" not to mention having a second intelligenice officer pouring over the Shadowbroker data how that couldn't have hurt in the least.

And if Miranda had died could have been the sister (in a non combat role) trying to get revenge on Cerberus and try to track down what her father was doing.

[Konfined]

David7204 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I agree. It was absurd. Personally, I think that if they showed Jack's arc towards trying to become a better person, it could have been incredibly powerful and emotional if done right, with her becoming a teacher the endpoint of her growth as a person, once the Reapers were defeated.

I absolutely agree. She was badly traumatized in her childness. She spent her whole life never giving a damn about anything or anyone but herself, stealing, hijacking, terrorizing and blowing people and things up. Dangerous lunatic is a compliment for her. And she said it herself in ME2, after the suicide mission she'll go away.

Even if Shep chose the parangon path and/or romanced her, there is no way she'd change that deep and that quick. Her past is too heavy, her wounds too deep. It'd take years, decades to heal, if even possible. Who's Shep? Jesus? Wait, he came back from the deads...

Spec ops, solo high-risk missions (remember she has a big issue with authority), yes. Teaching young students in a military academy? No way in hell.

That is simply not true at all. Some of stories in ME 2 make it clear she cared very deeply about people. And the idea that just because someone is a criminal, even a violent one, means they can't have deep and meaningful relationships is silly.

Not only that, this looks like a bit of a sloppy diagnosis. I don't think she respects authority a whole lot, but I never saw any indication of any kind of 'issue' with it beyond the issues inherent with being a criminal.

Except she's not just a typical run of the mill criminal.  She's a lab experiment and almost damn near complete monster- as the result of horrific, lifelong abuse the likes of which is difficult to quantify.  6 months is not near enough time to get over the physical and psychological damage she suffered, I don't care how Superman Jesus David Koresh Shepard is suppose to be.  Her role in ME3 is completely contrived; and her personality made an almost full 180.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 03:28 .

[SlottsMachine]

Uncle Jo wrote...

It was one of the biggest wtf moments in ME3. A sociopathic cold-blooded killer becoming, within 6 months, a teacher in an Alliance academy. And I really do like her.

To be fair, who isn't a sociapathic cold-blooded killer in this game. While I do agree that the 6 month time frame is short, lots crazier stuff has happened. 

[Ykulnu]

fainmaca wrote...

To continue that line of reasoning, look at the characters on your squad that are the least liked- Kaidan, Jacob and Vega, corresponding to each game. They are the closest you have to society's baseline 'normal' in the mix of crazy badasses you get in the games. 'Normal' female characters like Ash do better because strong female characters are still under-represented in entertainment media, but these three men perform the worst among the fanbase in large part because they are so close to normal. Zaeed does better than them because of his rogue outlook, and aliens, machines and so on are outsidfe of our day to day life, so the inspire more interest.

It's funny that you would say that, because Kaidan, Jacob, and James are some of my favorite characters. I felt like I related to them more than, say, Thane or Samara. Come to think of it, aside from Grunt, all of my favorite characters are human. 

[o Ventus]

General Slotts wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

It was one of the biggest wtf moments in ME3. A sociopathic cold-blooded killer becoming, within 6 months, a teacher in an Alliance academy. And I really do like her.

To be fair, who isn't a sociapathic cold-blooded killer in this game. While I do agree that the 6 month time frame is short, lots crazier stuff has happened. 

From all the squadmates, only Jack is a killer (in the criminal sense). Thane too if we're counting his profession and technical illegality of hitmen in council space. Also Morinth.

Nobody on any of your squads is a sociopath.

Modifié par o Ventus, 28 février 2013 - 03:37 .